Transubstantiation: What changes?

[byfaithalone]

That is correct.

byfaithalone, please clarify for me (for us all) what it takes, in your opinion, for us to get to Heaven, specifically. I can’t help wondering if we’re just having a communication breakdown here. Clearly, we differ in our interpretation of scripture in many ways, so, in your own words, what does a person do to be considered “saved”?

I’ll let Scripture answer that:

9 that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. 11 For the Scripture says, “Whoever believes on Him will not be put to shame.” 12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek, for the same Lord over all is rich to all who call upon Him. 13 For “whoever calls on the name of the LORD shall be saved.”

“Sirs, what must I do to be saved?”
31 So they said, “Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved, you and your household.” 32 Then they spoke the word of the Lord to him and to all who were in his house. 33 And he took them the same hour of the night and washed their stripes. And immediately he and all his family were baptized. 34 Now when he had brought them into his house, he set food before them; and he rejoiced, having believed in God with all his household.

 

[byfaithalone]

All right. Then I have a few questions:

1. What is the wrath of God

Read Revelation.

1. What is it directed towards?

Do you mean WHO is it directed towards?

 

[byfaithalone]

it is a visible Church and it is the Catholic church.

No, it is not. His church is all those that belong to Him. It is not a religious organization. There are some in the Catholic church that are part of His church, but the Catholic church doesn’t make up His church.

I think that it is important to note that Matters of Dogma require our acceptance, not necessarily our full understanding and “signing off on them” so to speak.

Nothing that does not align with God’s word requires our acceptance. We are to test all things and hold to what is good.

One is that one cannot accept something unless they fully understand it. By this measure none of us could even be Christian for we cannot fully understand the mysteries of Christ’s salvic mission, how grace works, the Trinity or a whole host of other issues.

Salvation is not hard to understand. The Gospel is very simple.

In reality I doubt that their are many catholics out there who fully understand and accept EVERY teaching of the Church. There ARE many who accept the teachings on faith.
I certainly fall into the second category.

I follow the example of the Bereans.

 

[bobregan]

Yes, I see where you are going. I also noticed that you didn’t mention that you disowned your son. He is STILL your son. You chastised him because that is what good parents are supposed to do.
We, believers, are adopted sons and daughters, heirs. When we do something wrong, God does not disown us, we are still His children. God chastises those that are His. If you aren’t chastised by God when you do wrong, you do not belong to Him.
Point being, yes, we do wrong, we sin, we fall, but we are never disowned. We never cease to belong to Him. We are never cast out.

Did not disown him…he CHOSE by FREE WILL to ignore my will and he chose to deny the gift. I’m sure God still loves all people in hell, he created them. But they freely chose to not do His will and chose to deny the gift of eternal salvation.

 

[bobregan]

No, it is not. His church is all those that belong to Him. It is not a religious organization. There are some in the Catholic church that are part of His church, but the Catholic church doesn’t make up His church.

Nothing that does not align with God’s word requires our acceptance. We are to test all things and hold to what is good.

Salvation is not hard to understand. The Gospel is very simple.

I follow the example of the Bereans.

Where did the bible come from, byfaithalone? Who put it together? When did the bibile as we know it, first come in to existence? Who decided what books belong, what books didn’t belong? How did they know what books belonged in the New Testament, and what books didn’t?

In other words, you do understand the history of the bible, don’t you?

 

[byfaithalone]

Did not disown him…he CHOSE by FREE WILL to ignore my will and he chose to deny the gift.

Your gift had nothing to do with your son NO LONGER being your son.

You are suggesting that once we are made heirs, and are adopted sons and daughters, that God disinherits us for stumbling at some point.

I’m sure God still loves all people in hell, he created them. But they freely chose to not do His will and chose to deny the gift of eternal salvation.

No one that is an adopted son or daughter, and heir, will ever end up in hell.

His children are sealed with the spirit of promise, who is the guarantee of our inheritance.

 

[byfaithalone]

Yes, and this is not about the history of the bible.

 

[delsydebothom]

Read Revelation.

Revelation describes the results of God’s wrath. It does not, however, define what it is, in and of itself.

Do you mean WHO is it directed towards?

No reason to shout! But, no, I don’t mean “who”. God’s wrath is not directed towards people, except in a metaphorical sense–God created people, after all, and people are therefore a fundamentally good thing. His wrath (a quality which we have not yet defined) is directed, rather, towards something that has gone wrong in people–something that isn’t what it ought to be. What is that thing?

 

[byfaithalone]

Revelation describes the results of God’s wrath.

It shows God’s wrath that is poured out.

It does not, however, define what it is, in and of itself.

Indignation.

No reason to shout! But, no, I don’t “who”. God’s wrath is not directed towards people,

Oh, but it is.

Nahum 1:2
God is jealous, and the LORD avenges; The LORD avenges and is furious. The LORD will take vengeance on His adversaries, And He reserves wrath for His enemies;

John 3:36
He who believes in the Son has everlasting life; and he who does not believe the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.”

Romans 1:18
For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness,

Ephesians 5:6
Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of these things the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience.

Colossians 3:6
Because of these things the wrath of God is coming upon the sons of disobedience,

except in a metaphorical sense–God created people, after all, and people are therefore a fundamentally good thing.

Hmmm…

So Jesus said to him, “Why do you call Me good? No one is good but One, that is, God.

We are not good. We are born fallen, separated from God.

His wrath (a quality which we have not yet defined) is directed, rather, towards something that has gone wrong in people–something that isn’t what it ought to be. What is that thing?

Well, Scripture shows that His wrath is indeed directed toward people.

But not towards those that are His.

For God did not appoint us to wrath, but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ,

 

[byfaithalone]

Where does it say anything about the Jews in Rev 19?

Who said anything about Rev. 19 being about the Jews? It is about judgment in general.

btw, this thread has gotten way to much to try to keep up with. If I don’t respond to something, it is not because I don’t want to, but it’s hard to keep up with this many replies in one thread.

 

[bobregan]

Your gift had nothing to do with your son NO LONGER being your son.

You are suggesting that once we are made heirs, and are adopted sons and daughters, that God disinherits us for stumbling at some point.

No one that is an adopted son or daughter, and heir, will ever end up in hell.

His children are sealed with the spirit of promise, who is the guarantee of our inheritance.

No I do not…you’re putting words in my mouth.

Obviously you differ on many doctrines/issues from the Catholic Church. Where do you receive the authority from, that you are correct, and the Catholic Church is in error? How do you know that you are correct…the Catholic Church is wrong?

Where do you get your authority from to interpret scripture correctly without error??

 

[bobregan]

No, it is not. His church is all those that belong to Him. It is not a religious organization. There are some in the Catholic church that are part of His church, but the Catholic church doesn’t make up His church.

Nothing that does not align with God’s word requires our acceptance. We are to test all things and hold to what is good.

Salvation is not hard to understand. The Gospel is very simple.

I follow the example of the Bereans.

byfaithalone says: "His church is all those that belong to Him. It is not a religious organization. "

How do you know what you are saying above is correct? Who made you the authority (or gave you the authority) to define what “Church” means in this circumstance? So…your interpretations of 2000 years of Christianity are infallible and without error, even if they disagree with the Catholic Church? How do you know?

 

[delsydebothom]

It shows God’s wrath that is poured out.

Yes, but it does not define it.

Indignation.

This gives us another words to consider, but it doesn’t answer the question. If God’s wrath and indignation are the same thing, what exactly is that thing? It cannot be the same passion as exists in man, since in man it is an emotion–a change from one state to another. In God, however, there is not the slightest shadow of change–He cannot move from one state–such as joy–to another state–such as wrath–since He is unchangeable.

Oh, but it is.

Nahum 1:2
God is jealous, and the LORD avenges; The LORD avenges and is furious. The LORD will take vengeance on His adversaries, And He reserves wrath for His enemies;

John 3:36
He who believes in the Son has everlasting life; and he who does not believe the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.”

Romans 1:18
For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness,

Ephesians 5:6
Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of these things the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience.

Colossians 3:6
Because of these things the wrath of God is coming upon the sons of disobedience,

I’m not sure why you have a problem with me taking these in a metaphorical sense when you yourself say the Bible often uses metaphorical language.

Hmmm…

So Jesus said to him, “Why do you call Me good? No one is good but One, that is, God.

We are not good. We are born fallen, separated from God.

Words can be used in different ways. If I put poison into a bottle of water, is the water itself bad? No, but we call it bad anyway, since its been contaminated by poison. The water itself, however, is perfectly good–the same H2O is was to begin with. Likewise, people are not in and of themselves bad–God doesn’t make bad things–but we call ourselves bad to whatever degree we fail to live up to what we truly are, in God’s design.

Well, Scripture shows that His wrath is indeed directed toward people.

But not towards those that are His.

For God did not appoint us to wrath, but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ,

Again, there is good reasons to take such passages as expressing poetically something of the relationship man’s sin to God, rather than in a literalistic way. The implication’s of God’s immutability form some of the best reasons for doing so.

 

[bobregan]

Yes, and this is not about the history of the bible.

Because obviously, you cannot answer the question of where the bible comes from because either you really don’t know, or you are aware that it was put together by four Catholic Councils starting in the late fourth century, that they are a VISIBLE CHURCH that had been given the assurance and the guidance of the holy Spirit by Christ Himself to the Catholic Church to decide in such matters (bind and loose) what books were divinely inspired and to include amongst 55 gospels/epistles at the time to be included. That basically you do adhere to the authority of the Catholic Church because you believe that the bible you read is the correct bible, given to you by the Catholic Church. Obviously then, the visible Catholic Church that decided what books go in the bible would therefor have the teaching authority to interpret correctly what is written within the pages of the book they put together.

And you, 1700 years after the bible was put together, do not have the teaching authority to interpret the bible, a Catholic book, correctly.

 

[byfaithalone]

Yes, but it does not define it.

Indignation.

This gives us another words to consider, but it doesn’t answer the question. If God’s wrath and indignation are the same thing, what exactly is that thing? It cannot be the same passion as exists in man,

Right. His is righteous indignation

since in man it is an emotion–a change from one state to another. In God, however, there is not the slightest shadow of change–He cannot move from one state–such as joy–to another state–such as wrath–since He is unchangeable.

What? God is emotionless? Is this what your propose? God delights, He is jealous, He is merciful, He is Just, He is compassionate. Why on earth do you suggest He is emotionless?

I’m not sure why you have a problem with me taking these in a metaphorical sense when you yourself say the Bible often uses metaphorical language.

Because His wrath is not metaphorical. It WILL take place, and be poured out on the unrighteous.

Words can be used in different ways.

Jesus was pretty clear that there is none good, except God. Why do you have a hard time believing that?

God doesn’t make bad things

No, He didn’t create man bad. It was GOOD, just as it says in Gensis. Then came the Fall of man. We are now born dead in sin and transgression, separated from God.

Again, there is good reasons to take such passages as expressing poetically something of the relationship man’s sin to God, rather than in a literalistic way.

Says who? Is that the infallible interpretation of your church?

 

[delsydebothom]

Indignation.

Right. His is righteous indignation

 

[byfaithalone]

That still isn’t a definition.

It wasn’t meant to be.

The scriptures teach us that God does not change. An emotion is a change. Therefore, God has no emotions.

You are wrong. Scripture refutes your claim.

God is merciful, He is compassionate, He is jealous, He delights, He hates, He loves.

Where you got that twisted idea is beyond me. Can you show the official Catholic teaching that states your church believes God is emotionless?

And it is the sin that is bad–the sin that makes us fail to be fully ourselves. However, not even the damned can completely escape the goodness God has instilled in them. Even the Devil himself has existence, intellect, will, et al, all of which come from God. And even the Devil is a good thing–he’s just a irreparably perverted good thing.

The Devil is a good thing?

Ok, this place is nuts. God have mercy on all of you.

 

[delsydebothom]

You are wrong. Scripture refutes your claim.

God is merciful, He is compassionate, He is jealous, He delights, He hates, He loves.

But these things, as they exist in God, are not emotions; they are simply Who He Is, eternally.

Where you got that twisted idea is beyond me. Can you show the official Catholic teaching that states your church believes God is emotionless?

I think so–at least, I think I can find again the teaching that God’s wrath is not passionate. I’ll do a little digging and get back with you.

The Devil is a good thing?

He is a Seraph, and Seraphim are good things, so yes. Were he not such an overwhelmingly good thing, he could not have become so destructively perverse.

 

[byfaithalone]

But these things, as they exist in God, are not emotions; they are simply Who He Is, eternally.

So God is eternally jealous, hates, loves, desires, ect? I think not.

I think so–at least, I think I can find again the teaching that God’s wrath is not passionate. I’ll do a little digging and get back with you.

God’s wrath is just, it is passionate, and it is indignation.

He is a Seraph, and Seraphim are good things, so yes. Were he not such an overwhelmingly good thing, he could not have become so destructively perverse.

I see. Jesus, who says there is no one good except God, has no clue that the devil is good too. This conversation just gets crazier by the minute.

What does Scripture say about the one you see as good?

He is a deceiver, a slanderer, and his very name means “adversary".
and he is good, according to YOU.

 

[Betterave]

Yes, you would know this if you are following along in this conversation.

That’s it? That’s your answer? I have been following along, and obviously you think it’s relevant, but I was inviting you to reconsider that. With this response, it’s
painfully obvious that you are being too closed-minded to reconsider anything.

Originally Posted by byfaithalone
So when Jesus said His sheep shall never perish, He didn’t really mean it?

Is that a relevant question? No, it’s not relevant because it takes one snippit of a verse out of context and ignores the rest of scripture, in light of which that snippet ought to be understood; for example…

When Paul said:
1 Cor. 4: 2 Here now it is required among the dispensers that a man be found faithful. 3 But to me it is a very small thing to be judged by you or by man’s day. But neither do I judge my own self. 4 For I am not conscious to myself of anything. Yet am I not hereby justified: but he that judges me is the Lord. 5 Therefore, judge not before the time: until the Lord come, who both will bring to light the hidden things of darkness and will make manifest the counsels of the hearts. And then shall every man have praise from God
…you don’t think you should follow his example?

Why is Paul’s exhortation necessary here: 2Cor. 6, 1: “And we helping do exhort you that you receive not the grace of God in vain”? What do you make of this kind of warning to believers, which is a frequent refrain in the NT?:

1Cor 9, 27 “But I chastise my body and bring it into subjection: lest perhaps, when I have preached to others, I myself should become a castaway.”

1Cor 10, 9 “Neither let us tempt Christ, as some of them tempted and perished by the serpent. 10 Neither do you murmur, as some of them murmured and were destroyed by the destroyer. 11 Now all these things happened to them in figure: and they are written for our correction, upon whom the ends of the world have come. 12 Wherefore, he that thinks himself to stand, let him take heed lest he fall.”

Indeed, take heed lest you have fallen, lest you have become a castaway, lest you have erroneously and presumptously judged yourself justified, where even St. Paul declined to do so. Or not! Or go ahead and pick and choose which scriptures make you feel good.