Transubstantiation

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Well, the very earliest extra-Biblical evidence for it comes from Clement of Rome and Ignatius of Antioch, both of whom were trained and appointed Bishops by Peter and Paul personally. From these documents, we know that the practice was in place no later than 110 AD, just 10 years after the death of St. John. If Jesus didn’t establish it (which Catholics believe he did), then it was established a mere 10 years after the Apostolic age. That’s the second generation of Christianity.
Thanks for the answer…
*
On the Eucharist, Ignatius wrote in his letter to the Smyrnaeans:
“ Take note of those who hold heterodox opinions on the grace of Jesus Christ which has come to us, and see how contrary their opinions are to the mind of God. . . . They abstain from the Eucharist and from prayer because they do not confess that the Eucharist is the flesh of our Savior Jesus Christ*

I am still very confused as to how a Priest has the power, or where the priest found / given the power to turn bread into Jesus’s flesh and blood.
 
Thanks for the answer…

I am still very confused as to how a Priest has the power, or where the priest found / given the power to turn bread into Jesus’s flesh and blood.
The question involves Jesus’s laying hands upon the Apostles and granting them the power. Beyond what I’ve already given you, I’ll have to get back to you, because I’m not enough of an expert (Biblically) on that topic to go tremendously in depth. I’ll do some research for you though and see if I can explain it better.
 
If it’s not in the Bible, Jesus never said it, then clearly ’ someone ’ in the Catholic Church decided that priests have the power to turn bread into Jesus…is that not correct?
Onetime, can’t you see how absurd this kind of thinking is? Where in the bible does it say ‘if it’s not in the bible, Jesus never said it"? Only you said this. Jesus didn’t say this. Do you think all of Jesus’ words he ever said are in the bible?!! How do you explain the fact that except for when Mary and Joseph lost him in the temple we have almost NOTHING at all of all the words spoken by Jesus since the time HE was born until he started his public teaching in his 30’s?! We can safely assume that the bible contains less than 10% of all the “words” Jesus ever said. The bible only contains his teachings.

Here is what the bible says about what it contains:
John 21:25
There are also many other things that Jesus did, but if these were to be described individually, I do not think the whole world would contain the books that would be written.

Comprehende now?

James
 
I am still very confused as to how a Priest has the power, or where the priest found / given the power to turn bread into Jesus’s flesh and blood.
The new priesthood was established by Christ himself. He conferring it directly upon His apostles, and indirectly upon their successors in the ministry, through the Sacrament of Holy Orders. He established this sacrament when, at the celebration of the Last Supper, He commanded His apostles, saying: “Do this for a commemoration of Me” (Luke xxii. 19). In these words He bestowed on them and their successors the right and power to do what He Himself did, namely, to convert bread into His body and wine into His blood, thus founding an ever-enduring priestly office. After His Resurrection He completed the institution of the sacrament, by saying: “As the Father hath sent Me, I also send you. Receive ye the Holy Ghost. Whose sins you shall forgive, they are forgiven them,” etc.; and again just before His Ascension, when He said: “Going therefore, teach ye all nations,” etc. (Matt. xxviii. 19). In these words Christ gave to the apostles and their successors authority over the religious and moral body of the Church, thereby delivering to them all the powers which appertain to the priestly office, and also supplying them with the graces necessary for a worthy discharge of their office. Hence St. Paul says repeatedly, that with the outward and visible laying on of hands there is joined an effectiveness of grace for the exercise of the sacerdotal duties, which cannot be accomplished by an apostle, but only by Christ, the dispenser of graces. “Neglect not,” says St. Paul, “the grace that is in thee, which was given thee with the imposition of hands of the priesthood” (Tim. iv. 14).
Code:
        Therefore, the priestly authority is not derived from the congregation as it is in Protestant communites; it is bestowed upon the priest by God.  The priest is not a hireling.  He is selected by God.  Hence St. Paul writes:  "Neither doth any man take the honor to himself, but he that is called by God, as Aaron was" (Heb. v. 4).

        The apostles administered Holy Orders by the imposition of hands and by prayer only.  In very early times, however, the Church added the anointing and the passing of the priestly symbols and appointed set forms of words to be uttered by the ordaining bishop at each act.

        Bishops only are authorized to administer the Sacrament of Holy Orders, for they are the only successors of the apostles, and receives this right through their Episcopal consecration.

        Holy Orders increases sanctifying grace in its recipient.  It adorns his soul, now clothed with this sanctifying grace, with clearer light, deeper charity, and higher sanctity.  It confers upon him the grace to exercise properly the functions of the priesthood and to discharge faithfully its onerous duties, to undergo cheerfully all its struggles and privations, and, if need be, to lay down his life in the sacred service.  

        Holy Orders imprints upon its recipient an enduring mark as a consecrated servant of the Lord.  It distinguishes him from the rest of the faithful, and can be received only once.
More here: marys-touch.com/Triumphs/HolyOrders.htm

James
 
Onetime, can’t you see how absurd this kind of thinking is? Where in the bible does it say ‘if it’s not in the bible, Jesus never said it"? Only you said this. Jesus didn’t say this. Do you think all of Jesus’ words he ever said are in the bible?!! How do you explain the fact that except for when Mary and Joseph lost him in the temple we have almost NOTHING at all of all the words spoken by Jesus since the time HE was born until he started his public teaching in his 30’s?! We can safely assume that the bible contains less than 10% of all the “words” Jesus ever said. The bible only contains his teachings.

Here is what the bible says about what it contains:
John 21:25
There are also many other things that Jesus did, but if these were to be described individually, I do not think the whole world would contain the books that would be written.

Comprehende now?

James
No. We are talking about the Eucharist which is Central to the Faith.

Had did earthy men obtain the power to change a piece of bread into the flesh and blood of the Son of God.

It is in no way absurd.

There is a huge debate about whether or not the Eucharist is the real presence of Jesus Christ.

If it is the real presence, how did men obtain this power, how can we be assured men have this power?

A very fair and important question.

To label this line of thinking and therefor my questioning absurd, when we are talking about one of the most central tenants of the faith, is the only thing that is in itself absurd!

If you know the answer, as to how priests were given the power explicitly to turn bread into Jesus, then please let me know.

Apostolic succession doesn’t cut it, as the apostles could work miracles healing the sick. That has not carried onto every single priest through Apostolic succession…so why something that wasn’t even mentioned? Men turning bread into Christ?
 
“Do this for a commemoration of Me” (Luke xxii. 19). In these words He bestowed on them and their successors the right and power to do what He Himself did, namely, to convert bread into His body and wine into His blood, thus founding an ever-enduring priestly office.
…take this all of you and eat from eat, this is my body which has been given up for you. Take this cup and drink from it, this is the cup of my blood, the blood of the new and ever lasting covenant, do this in memory of me.

That can’t be the answer, Jesus is telling his apostles to No where is he telling them to turn bread and wine into flesh and into the blood of Christ.

I don’t see any authority for men to turn bread into the flesh of Jesus in that scripture…none at all.

Surely the Church does not derive this power and authority to turn bread into Jesus from that?
 
No. We are talking about the Eucharist which is Central to the Faith.

Had did earthy men obtain the power to change a piece of bread into the flesh and blood of the Son of God.

It is in no way absurd.

There is a huge debate about whether or not the Eucharist is the real presence of Jesus Christ.

If it is the real presence, how did men obtain this power, how can we be assured men have this power?

A very fair and important question.

To label this line of thinking and therefor my questioning absurd, when we are talking about one of the most central tenants of the faith, is the only thing that is in itself absurd!

If you know the answer, as to how priests were given the power explicitly to turn bread into Jesus, then please let me know.

Apostolic succession doesn’t cut it, as the apostles could work miracles healing the sick. That has not carried onto every single priest through Apostolic succession…so why something that wasn’t even mentioned? Men turning bread into Christ?
Since you have rejected (quite arbitrarily, IMO) the answers given you so far, let’s try another approach. What standard of proof would you accept, and by what authority do you proclaim your standard of proof to be the one correct standard?
 
Surely the Church does not derive this power and authority to turn bread into Jesus from that?
As you have been told more than once now, power and authority in the Catholic Church do not derive from scripture. So you are either incapable of comprehending this, or you are pretending, for reasons unknown, that no such answers were ever given. Which is it?
 
Since you have rejected (quite arbitrarily, IMO) the answers given you so far, let’s try another approach. What standard of proof would you accept, and by what authority do you proclaim your standard of proof to be the one correct standard?
The question has not been answered. People have given me their opinions. I am not ignoring what is being posted, I am finding that what I am being told only is that the Catholic laity simply has faith that this is the way it is, because the Church told them that ’ do this in memory of me’ , means that priests can turn bread into Jesus.

’ Do this in memory of me’…no one has explained how that translates into:

" Roman Catholic Priests shall have sole authority to turn ordinary bread into the body, blood, soul and divinity of Jesus Christ, at every mass, every time, no exception. "

You see my point?

People are reading a lot into ’ do this in memory of me’? No?

Is that the only answer the Church gives?
 
As you have been told more than once now, power and authority in the Catholic Church do not derive from scripture. So you are either incapable of comprehending this, or you are pretending, for reasons unknown, that no such answers were ever given. Which is it?
I, like allot of cradle Catholics, have been told what to believe and I believed it. But then I started to think about things…how could I have gone to Catholic school, gone to regular mass and yet have known so little about Jesus, but known all about the Saints, Mary, the Church, the Pope, Cardinals etc? Hmmmm…then the flood gates of questions started.

I understand everything you are all writing…cradle Catholic, in my 30’s. Attending regular mass, as an adult attended regular mass…I fully and completely understand the Church’s position of apostolic succession.

Apostolic succession does not explain anything…apostles could perform miracles and heal the sick, well documented in the Bible…priests can’t do that.

Less clear, is any direct evidence that Apostles had the power to turn bread into Jesus…yet, Priests have this power.

I’m to accept that the answer is ’ apostolic succession, laying of the hands, God said so, the Church is always right in question of morals and faith’ …now move on and stop pestering us?!

The Church claims transubstantiation is a physical reality. Surely there is a better foundation as to where men have obtained this power?
 
I, like allot of cradle Catholics, have been told what to believe and I believed it. But then I started to think about things…how could I have gone to Catholic school, gone to regular mass and yet have known so little about Jesus, but known all about the Saints, Mary, the Church, the Pope, Cardinals etc? Hmmmm…then the flood gates of questions started.

I understand everything you are all writing…cradle Catholic, in my 30’s. Attending regular mass, as an adult attended regular mass…I fully and completely understand the Church’s position of apostolic succession.

Apostolic succession does not explain anything…apostles could perform miracles and heal the sick, well documented in the Bible…priests can’t do that.

Less clear, is any direct evidence that Apostles had the power to turn bread into Jesus…yet, Priests have this power.

I’m to accept that the answer is ’ apostolic succession, laying of the hands, God said so, the Church is always right in question of morals and faith’ …now move on and stop pestering us?!

The Church claims transubstantiation is a physical reality. Surely there is a better foundation as to where men have obtained this power?
There are two important aspects of Catholicism you need to get comfortable with emotionally and intellectually in order to get past your skepticism. The first and foremost thing to grasp is the concept of legitimate priestly and apostolic AUTHORITY conveyed through Divine appointment when Christ gave all authority to bind and loose on earth and heaven to the apostles; and previously gave Peter the authority to lead the others. No one else on the planet save our Orthodox brethren have that same apostolic authority - NONE. The separation caused by the various heretics over the years has been basically a matter of not respecting authority - and God will be very severe with these since Jesus told us "those that reject you reject me’. These will all be cast into hell since there is no half-way sort of acceptance and respect for God - we must love God (and respect God) with ALL our hearts, minds and soul. Jesus will vomit out of His mouth the names of the billions of souls over the generations who were luke-warm in life and belief. The second thing you must come to understand is the totality of scripture from OT to NT. Everything in the priesthood of the Catholic Church is prefigured in the OT and confirmed in the NT (which did not come for 400 years till after Christ) and ratified when Jesus conveys his Divine Authority on His Apostles. “You are a priest forever according to the order of Melchizedek”.

I could place hundreds of scripture references that show that the priesthood and scripture are highly integrative. There is a revelation process that only a person who understand the totality of scripture (old and new) will see a ratification of the priesthood. We in modern times who have the advantage of cannon and education have no excuse not to know. This public recongnition of scriptural revelation comes mostly to us from Tradition since most people in the early church could not read nor write and were not steeped in the totality of revealed scripture (and cannon came later). So it becomes a matter of faith and Tradition for most to accept the Priesthood. But in the light of NT teaching and the formal establishment of cannon it also becomes PROFOUNDLY obvious from revelation to anyone who can read and write and integrate and recognize the consistent message all through the Bible. The Church through the HS recognized it straightway - the laity followed the natural leadership of the apostles and their priests.

If you doubt then you must read scripure and see the amazing connectivity to prove it to yourself intellectually.

Read here if you have any doubts and want to get a more holistic insight into the Priesthood: scripturecatholic.com/the_priesthood.html

James
 
and God will be very severe with these since Jesus told us "those that reject you reject me’. These will all be cast into hell since there is no half-way sort of acceptance and respect for God - we must love God (and respect God) with ALL our hearts, minds and soul. Jesus will vomit out of His mouth the names of the billions of souls over the generations who were luke-warm in life and belief.
This is about where you lost me. I couldn’t disagree with you more and according to your beliefs heaven would be a very lonely place with most of the world condemned to hell.
 
Apostolic succession does not explain anything…apostles could perform miracles and heal the sick, well documented in the Bible…priests can’t do that.

Less clear, is any direct evidence that Apostles had the power to turn bread into Jesus…yet, Priests have this power.
Just a couple of thoughts…

I think, possibly, that the healings and miracles are “curbed” so to say, to prevent people flocking to believe just based on such things. They “see” therefore they believe. The miracle of the Eucharist, although seemingly normal, uninspiring, and repetitious to some is far greater than any other miracle, yet it does not have the “seeing” effect on people. Keep Jn 20:29 in mind…
Jesus said to him, 'Have you believed because you have seen me? Blessed are those who have not seen and have believed"
It’s kind of like the Mega churches that attract all types of people. It’s more of an entertainment value…loud music, lights, and fiery sermons. They are getting their “seeing” and it gives them a “warm fuzzy”.

I think God has left exact details out so that we can exercise our free will fully, without being forced to believe. Thus, my faith in His Church, and what it teaches gives me foundation to believe. And remember it is HIS Church founded upon the rock, Peter. Peter along with all the Apostles received their power from Christ and imparted it onto subsequent bishops, priests, deacons.
 
Just a couple of thoughts…

I think, possibly, that the healings and miracles are “curbed” so to say, to prevent people flocking to believe just based on such things. They “see” therefore they believe. The miracle of the Eucharist, although seemingly normal, uninspiring, and repetitious to some is far greater than any other miracle, yet it does not have the “seeing” effect on people. Keep Jn 20:29 in mind…
I’m glad you wrote that…you’ve expressed my sentiments exactly. I’d tried to write something similar a few times, but I wasn’t making any sense, so I never posted it.

You have hit the nail on the head. The Catholic belief is that the bread turns into the flesh of Christ!!!

Look around a Church during mass…you wouldn’t really know that the laity are all supposed to believe that Christ is really present.

If it is to be believed, it is an absolute massive miracle…bread is turned into the flesh, blood, soul and divinity of Christ by the power granted to every Roman Catholic Priest.

People generally don’t seem that interested or excited that some bread has turned into Jesus’s flesh and blood.

I know that I am not the only one struggling with this belief. I also believe that there are a lot of Catholics who don’t really think about it too much.
 
I’m glad you wrote that…you’ve expressed my sentiments exactly. I’d tried to write something similar a few times, but I wasn’t making any sense, so I never posted it.

You have hit the nail on the head. The Catholic belief is that the bread turns into the flesh of Christ!!!

Look around a Church during mass…you wouldn’t really know that the laity are all supposed to believe that Christ is really present.

If it is to be believed, it is an absolute massive miracle…bread is turned into the flesh, blood, soul and divinity of Christ by the power granted to every Roman Catholic Priest.

People generally don’t seem that interested or excited that some bread has turned into Jesus’s flesh and blood.

I know that I am not the only one struggling with this belief. I also believe that there are a lot of Catholics who don’t really think about it too much.
Yes, it is very sad that they don’t. Yet even though those around me seem to be unconnected or unaware, it does not shake my faith in what is happening and what is true. No matter how many screaming kids, people chewing gum, talking, or silencing their ringing cell phone I always know what is happening. Even though my 6 year old is misbehaving, it doesn’t change it.

Have you read “The Lamb’s Supper” by Scott Hahn? I think this book puts into perfect perspective as to what is happening…“heaven on earth”. I would highly recommend it, especially in the state you are in.

Look to the lives of the Saints, their are so many that are completely in awe of the Blessed Sacrament, and how many give their life to Him. Look at how many martyrs gave their life for this belief.
 
The question has not been answered. People have given me their opinions. I am not ignoring what is being posted, I am finding that what I am being told only is that the Catholic laity simply has faith that this is the way it is, because the Church told them that ’ do this in memory of me’ , means that priests can turn bread into Jesus.

’ Do this in memory of me’…no one has explained how that translates into:

" Roman Catholic Priests shall have sole authority to turn ordinary bread into the body, blood, soul and divinity of Jesus Christ, at every mass, every time, no exception. "

You see my point?

People are reading a lot into ’ do this in memory of me’? No?

Is that the only answer the Church gives?
To repeat yet again, Church doctrine does not come from scripture. The Catholic Church does not know things because they are found in scripture. Rather, they are found in scripture (the New Testament, in particular) because the Church knows them and has always known them.

Now, you are applying (perhaps without realizing it) a double standard in your questions. You seem to think that if the New Testament said “I give priests the authority to change bread and wine into myself” then that would be the definitive answer. But why do you grant that authority to scripture? Why are you skeptical of some Church teaching, but not skeptical of the Church teaching that produced the bible? Why do you accept the claims made regarding the nature of the bible?

BTW, which bible do you believe is the correct one? The 73 book Catholic version or the 66 book Protestant version? And why?
 
This is about where you lost me. I couldn’t disagree with you more and according to your beliefs heaven would be a very lonely place with most of the world condemned to hell.
This is not a matter of opinion to disagree with. Nor is this a matter of getting the right marketing and sales pitch to you with a “feel good” message that YOU want to hear. This is about the gift of eternity and possibilities. Jesus never said salvation would be easy - He only said ‘it would be worth it’. While ‘all are called’ ‘few are chosen’. So don’t act like God must sell to you - you better pray you are chosen and that you are open to LISTENING rather than dictating YOUR own terms for salvation. My God, this is not a game of debate - YOUR eternal salvation is on the line and you better fight for it with all you will and might or you are toast. It’s that simple.

Salvation and the priesthood are all scriptural. Very few can enter heaven thought the narrow gate. Christ has brought the good news - it is possible for one to be saved - but to be saved one must trust, love and accept and live (note: VERB) ALL of His teachings; including being obedient to those who He has given authority to administer His Church (e.g. the Catholic Clergy).

It’s clear that you have not read scripture or do not understand scripture in even the easy areas. How can you possibly have a basis for understanding the priesthood if you don’t understand scripture or are unwilling to accept the faith that was handed to you from your forefathers? Salvation is impossible to those who will not listen to the truth and act on it. Do not confuse faith with intellectual acceptance of Christ’s message - its not the same thing.

Read the link I gave you if you are sincere in wanting to know the scriptural basis for the priesthood.

James
 
Keep in mind that the Apostles and their successors were celebrating the Eucharist long before the gospels and epistles were written. They believed Jesus words when he told them “this is my body, this is my blood.” They followed his command to “do this in memory of me,” without waiting for written instructions.

When Paul recounts the institution of the Eucharist in 1 Cor 11, along with an admonition of the necessity in believing it to be the actual body and blood of Jesus, he is talking about an already well established practice and belief.
 
It’s kind of like the Mega churches that attract all types of people. It’s more of an entertainment value…loud music, lights, and fiery sermons. They are getting their “seeing” and it gives them a “warm fuzzy”.
Let’s not forget to mention the all-in-one integrated one stop: religion, free day care for their children, the food service, the entertainment, the protestant religious material library and bookstores, the networking opportunities, the schooling etc. The Mega’s have taken it to beyond the SAMs superstore level and made their church (small c) like a community mall for those who wish an integrated “do it yourself” salvation religion and social outlet. :rolleyes:

James
 
I’m glad you wrote that…you’ve expressed my sentiments exactly. I’d tried to write something similar a few times, but I wasn’t making any sense, so I never posted it.

You have hit the nail on the head. The Catholic belief is that the bread turns into the flesh of Christ!!!

Look around a Church during mass…you wouldn’t really know that the laity are all supposed to believe that Christ is really present.

If it is to be believed, it is an absolute massive miracle…bread is turned into the flesh, blood, soul and divinity of Christ by the power granted to every Roman Catholic Priest.

People generally don’t seem that interested or excited that some bread has turned into Jesus’s flesh and blood.

I know that I am not the only one struggling with this belief. I also believe that there are a lot of Catholics who don’t really think about it too much.
Don’t judge Catholics beliefs by what you may think you see from outward appearances. Catholics are for the most part reserved and except for those in the charismatic devotions are more modest and humble in continence while in mass and not into external expressions of emotion etc. Those who are living their faith and are properly catechized are intimately aware of the profund truth that they are receiving the body, blood, soul and divinity through the Eucharist.

Also you use the “power” word a lot. This is a protestant preoccupation. Catholics think in terms of “authority”. The priest in and of himself does nothing but invoke God through his Holy Orders received through apostolic authority to grant us the miracle. The Priest is the conduit of the grace and the miracle not the source. Jesus is the source of “the Body and Blood” of Himself 😉

James
 
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