Transubstantiation

[stephraim]

I guess what it all comes down to is whether or not the Bible is the only source of Revelation. We believe Christ founded a Church, not a Bible. He entrusted the gospel to men to spread with the added assurance of the guidance of the Holy Spirit. Failure to recognize the Church will undoubtedly lead to the belief that the Bible is the only inspired Word of God. I will continue to pray before the Blessed Sacrament for the unity of all Christians and hope that our brothers and sisters will return to the One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church. God bless.

 

[onetimeposter]

Yes, those things are all referenced in the Bible. A Priest having the power to turn bread into the Son of God’s flesh and blood is not referenced. The Church leaders decided that it would be so.

1412 The essential signs of the Eucharistic sacrament are wheat bread and grape wine, on which the blessing of the Holy Spirit is invoked and the priest pronounces the words of consecration spoken by Jesus during the Last Supper: “This is my body which will be given up for you. . . . This is the cup of my blood. . . .”

-Catechism of the Catholic Church

I think it would be more accurate to describe it in this fashion, that the priest invokes the blessing of the Holy Spirit, and the Holy Spirit transforms the bread into Christ. This is what is meant by priests “confecting” the sacrament. Please don’t think that the priests have some kind of “magic”.

And no, the Bible does not directly state that priests will be able to confect the sacrament of the Eucharist, but you can certainly infer it from the Bible. Just as the Bible does not directly state that the Holy Trinity is Three Persons; Father, Son, and Holy Spirit; in one God, but you can certainly infer that.

Can any Catholic ask the Holy Spirit to turn some bread into the flesh and blood of Christ, and do so every time they ask?

 

[Spirithound]

1. Crackers and juice
2. God Himself

Consider the first choice. Would crackers and juice even be a fitting memorial meal for the building janitor, much less our Savior? Let’s get right to the core of the matter: would you offer your guests crackers and juice to memorialize your own beloved father or mother or brother or sister or child? You know you wouldn’t. Then why is such a memorial fitting for Jesus Christ?

The second choice, OTOH, is an entirely suitable and fitting memorial. It is, really, the only entirely suitable and fitting memorial. God is, obviously, fitting and suitable to remember God.

So, by this analysis alone one can plainly see that the Catholic (and Orthodox) teaching regarding the Real Presence makes sense, and the Protestant teaching makes no sense whatsoever.

Perhaps even a Seder meal might approach a shadow of fittingness for the Lord’s memorial. But do any Christians even do that? Not many, and even those are extra-liturgical events around Passiontide. I agree Mike, only the Lord’s own Flesh and Blood is truly fitting.

PS… Latin rite doesn’t actually mean in LATIN, right (besides Tridentine)? Just means it is the traditional Catholic mass?

The Latin Rite is the rite celebrated in the Patriarchate of the West. The Ordinary Form of this rite is the Novus Ordo, the Extraordinary Form is of the Missal of 1962 (I’m pretty sure that’s the year).

 

[onetimeposter]

Perhaps even a Seder meal might approach a shadow of fittingness for the Lord’s memorial. But do any Christians even do that? Not many, and even those are extra-liturgical events around Passiontide. I agree Mike, only the Lord’s own Flesh and Blood is truly fitting.

The Latin Rite is the rite celebrated in the Patriarchate of the West. The Ordinary Form of this rite is the Novus Ordo, the Extraordinary Form is of the Missal of 1962 (I’m pretty sure that’s the year).

Was Jesus a humble and simple man? What’s wrong with bread and wine?

 

[VociMike]

Was Jesus a humble and simple man? What’s wrong with bread and wine?

Jesus is also King of Kings, Lord of Lords, to whom every knee will bend. And you would never memorialize anyone whom you loved by offering a little cracker and a sip of wine or juice. You know you wouldn’t.

 

[Spirithound]

Was Jesus a humble and simple man? What’s wrong with bread and wine?

Jesus was humble, but we should honour Him in the best way possible.

 

[VociMike]

Perhaps even a Seder meal might approach a shadow of fittingness for the Lord’s memorial. But do any Christians even do that? Not many, and even those are extra-liturgical events around Passiontide. I agree Mike, only the Lord’s own Flesh and Blood is truly fitting.

Yes, a Seder meal would approach it, because it was ordained by God. But now Jesus Christ has made all things new, and that includes the new Seder meal, the very body, blood, soul and divinity of our Savior Jesus Christ. And I say with no malice, what a sad thing that so many cannot or will not see this tremendous gift that we are allowed to receive each and every day.

 

[Karol_Lynn]

I wish to thank all of you…even though this wasn’t my question asked, I did in fact have a very interesting conversation with a Protestant preacher a few weeks ago, and I didn’t have the answer to this question…however, I knew that the man wasn’t right, and his words were somehow going against God Himself…

Now that I have this answer from my own Faithful Family, I can walk strong in knowing that my faith and belief and Father are correct, and I need never doubt that at all!!

Blessings and much love to all of you!
Karol Lynn

 

[emeraldisle]

I guess what it all comes down to is whether or not the Bible is the only source of Revelation. We believe Christ founded a Church, not a Bible. He entrusted the gospel to men to spread with the added assurance of the guidance of the Holy Spirit. Failure to recognize the Church will undoubtedly lead to the belief that the Bible is the only inspired Word of God. I will continue to pray before the Blessed Sacrament for the unity of all Christians and hope that our brothers and sisters will return to the One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church. God bless.

What it comes down to is the fact that God is the source of Truth and that He has presented His Truth to us in His written word. Therefore everyone can compare teachings such as transubstantiation with the Truth that God has presented to us in His written word and see whether they are true or false. I have done this and have found out that the teaching of transubstantiation is false.

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[Rolltide]

What it comes down to is the fact that God is the source of Truth and that He has presented His Truth to us in His written word. Therefore everyone can compare teachings such as transubstantiation with the Truth that God has presented to us in His written word and see whether they are true or false. I have done this and have found out that the teaching of transubstantiation is false.

.

By what authority did you do this?

 

[emeraldisle]

Jesus is also King of Kings, Lord of Lords, to whom every knee will bend. And you would never memorialize anyone whom you loved by offering a little cracker and a sip of wine or juice. You know you wouldn’t.

So people respectfully and lovingly remember the Lord Jesus in His perfect sacrifice by eating Him???

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[VociMike]

So people respectfully and lovingly remember the Lord Jesus in His perfect sacrifice by eating Him???

Precisely, although our normal (human, outside the grace of God) concept of “eating” does not accord well with consuming the divine flesh and blood of God, who suffers no damage or injury by being thus consumed.

As I have stated before, the best analogy to the Eucharist is a mother breast feeding her infant. There is no damage or injury done to the mother when her child consumes a portion of her body. And there is no damage or injury when we consume, at his command, our Savior Jesus Christ.

 

[emeraldisle]

By what authority did you do this?

Are you suggesting that I need someones authority to search the Scriptures to find out if the teaching of transubstantiation is true? Did Paul commend the Bereans for searching the Scripture re his teaching?

These were more fair-minded than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness, and searched the Scriptures daily to find out whether these things were so. Acts 17:11

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[sebestt]

Karol Lynn:

Give your answer but on some level do not expect much in return. The answers on here definitely show it to be true but to be honest you really do not owe an explanation to anyone. Just pray for the ones who do not believe. I find it sometimes amusing when Catholics feel they have to give answers to people from relatively new religions with numerous man-made traditions. It seems the only way these religions can somehow “justify” themselves is to try to prove the Catholic faith is false. I actually visited one of their websites and it is sort of scary to see their anti-Catholic obsession. They fail miserably and you can see their frustrations. I just hope they devote as much time and energy to serving our Lord. Just continue to pray for them!!!

 

[VociMike]

Are you suggesting that I need someones authority to search the Scriptures to find out if the teaching of transubstantiation is true? Did Paul commend the Bereans for searching the Scripture re his teaching?

These were more fair-minded than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness, and searched the Scriptures daily to find out whether these things were so. Acts 17:11

.

And what do you know, not all of the Bereans found the truth despite all their searching of scripture. So why do you imagine you have found the truth in your searching of scripture?

 

[emeraldisle]

Precisely, although our normal (human, outside the grace of God) concept of “eating” does not accord well with consuming the divine flesh and blood of God, who suffers no damage or injury by being thus consumed.

As I have stated before, the best analogy to the Eucharist is a mother breast feeding her infant. There is no damage or injury done to the mother when her child consumes a portion of her body. And there is no damage or injury when we consume, at his command, our Savior Jesus Christ.

A mother breast feeding her baby = people eating the Lord Jesus’ flesh ???

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[emeraldisle]

And what do you know, not all of the Bereans found the truth despite all their searching of scripture. So why do you imagine you have found the truth in your searching of scripture?

So do you accept the fact that I have the right to search the Scriptures to find out if transubstantiation is true or false?

Or would you ask the following question too;

By what authority did you do this?

.

 

[sebestt]

You did search but you failed to find. I prayed for you again today emeraldisle!

 

[VociMike]

A mother breast feeding her baby = people eating the Lord Jesus’ flesh ???

.

Is your ‘?’ key stuck?

And yes, it’s possibly the closest analogy we can come up with. But hey, if you can come up with a better analogy, please post it.

 

[VociMike]

So do you accept the fact that I have the right to search the Scriptures to find out if transubstantiation is true or false?

I don’t even think the question of “right” comes in. Of course you have the right to read scripture. The real question is, can you be assured that the doctrines you think you find in scripture are actually the doctrines God intended to convey. And the answer for you, just as for the Bereans, is NO. Only by listening to the teaching of the Church can you have this assurance. You do NOT have this assurance on your own.