Transubstantiation

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The majority of people in the world do not believe that Jesus Christ is the Savior so according to your logic Jesus Christ isn’t the Savior.

And He took bread, gave thanks and broke it, and gave it to them, saying, “This is My body which is given for you; do this in remembrance of Me.” Luke 22.19

There is no teaching anywhere in the Bible that the followers of the Lord Jesus are to eat His body. The Lord Jesus commanded His followers to eat the bread in remembrance of Him.

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You are being utterly disingenuous with scripture to the risk of your own salvation (as well as others who you mislead) and you know it. You are utterly rejecting or ignoring an entire book (John’s gospel) of the bible by picking just one isolated verse taken out of biblical context. Listen, either you accept ALL of scripture or you accept NONE of scripture. You can’t carve up scripture to mosaic it to say something that did not happen and was never taught. You can’t divide truth against itself any more so than you can divide God against Son or Holy Spirit or divide any Apostle’s testament against another’s. Rather than ignore the bits that contradict you explain the contradiction if you can. The answer is you can’t and you know it.

No one in the early church ever believed in symbolic presence - all believed in real presence. Go back and actually read the evidence that the other poster gave instead of just parroting the irrational and speculative teaching of the protestant reformers who were all gravely misguided. You do not follow Christ nor scripture - you follow Luther and the reformers. You do not even follow common sense…

James
 
You can accept that:

God created the universe from nothing
God sustains all that is by a mere act of his will
God is a Trinity, one God in three Persons
God became Man, truly God and truly Man in the hypostatic union

You cannot accept:

God transforms bread and wine into his Body and Blood to feed us Sacramentally

Sorry, why, exactly can you not accept this?
Because it’s contrary to his history. He’s shown himself as a living being, and he always speaks figurativly. “I’m living water, the vine, the bread of life, give us this day our daily bread, etc” He’s trying to show us that he is the real “food” that sustains us and gives us life and only w/him in us (his spirit) we live. He’s not saying bread is him, but he is the "bread."There’s a difference in my mind. That we should stop focusing on material and start focusing on spiritual. Isn’t that what the point was throughout his ministry?
 
So are you claiming that in your religious services Christ is not present?

If “rememberance” (a poor translation) does not preclude Christ from being present at your services, why does it preclude him from being present in the Eucharist?
Christ is not only present in our services, he’s present wherever a believer goes because his spirit lives in us! 🙂 Do Catholics believe he is only w/them while they have the Eucharist in them? He said he will never leave us.
 
Seems to me that Jesus would have used different words if the bread and wine were merely symbolic.
 
I believe he would have used different words. I think many who make these posts to the contrary have no intent to discuss this with an open mind. My guess is they did not even read the excellent posts presented to them from the Gospel and early Church Fathers. I always pray for individuals that are more intent on following man-made traditions within their relatively new denomination than what is in Sacred Scripture and in letters from early church fathers that were disciples of the Apostles. I believe we should all pray for those individuals that they find the real truth in the Sacred and Oral traditions and not be misled. I definitely do not judge but I just pray they find the truth because once you find the total truth it is so beautiful! :gopray:
 
Christ is not only present in our services, he’s present wherever a believer goes because his spirit lives in us! 🙂 Do Catholics believe he is only w/them while they have the Eucharist in them? He said he will never leave us.
My point is that, if Christ is present (in particular, present in Protestant worship services), then how can “do this in rememberance” possibly be an argument against the Real Presence? It cannot.
 
Because it’s contrary to his history. He’s shown himself as a living being, and he always speaks figurativly. “I’m living water, the vine, the bread of life, give us this day our daily bread, etc” He’s trying to show us that he is the real “food” that sustains us and gives us life and only w/him in us (his spirit) we live. He’s not saying bread is him, but he is the "bread."There’s a difference in my mind. That we should stop focusing on material and start focusing on spiritual. Isn’t that what the point was throughout his ministry?
Christ does not always speak figuratively. Where did you ever get that notion? Was he speaking figuratively, for example, when he said that before Abraham was, I am?
 
Because it’s contrary to his history. He’s shown himself as a living being, and he always speaks figurativly. “I’m living water, the vine, the bread of life, give us this day our daily bread, etc” He’s trying to show us that he is the real “food” that sustains us and gives us life and only w/him in us (his spirit) we live. He’s not saying bread is him, but he is the "bread."There’s a difference in my mind. That we should stop focusing on material and start focusing on spiritual. Isn’t that what the point was throughout his ministry?
Unwittingly, you have hit the distinction between Catholicism and Protestantism on the head. That distinction lies in the realization that Catholicism is the Church of the Incarnation whereas Protestantism is split among denominations that focus on who has the right “spirit” of Christianity. The Son became Man - He entered into History and the matter of which it is made; He didn’t come just to give us good feelings, beliefs about Him, but to enter into our lives and transform us into images of Himself. The prime way in which He transforms us is through Baptism into Him and feeding us with His very Self, the Living Bread of God, which sustains us on our pilgrimage to fulfillment in Him. We are thus built up in Christ through encountering Him in the gift of the Eucharist.

Salvation is not just a matter of hearing the Word, but of consuming the Word Who strengthens us to do His will and to be transformed by grace into He Whom we consume. The Church has preserved and presented The Word-Made-Flesh in obedience to His command His command for 2000 years.

Yes, the spirit gives life, thus it is that when enlightened by the Holy Spirit through the gift of supernatural faith, what seems mere bread and wine is perceived in the spirit to be what it truly is: the Risen Body and Blood of the Glorified Christ in which we partake at His command.

So you believe (at least at this point) that while Jesus is the Lord of all creation Who made the stars and planets, this same Lord of all creation supposedly instituted a merely symbolic ritual as the memorial of His New Covenant? 🙂 I don’t think so. Even Luther thought that was a silly idea.

All Apostolic Churches agree on the Eucharist. The denominations, relying on Scripture alone, do not agree with the age-old practice of Apostolic Churches and disagree with one another about the Eucharist. Now the Holy Spirit unites what was divided; He doesn’t divide what is one. The unity of belief of all Apostolic Churches on the Eucharist as the Risen Flesh of Christ and as a re-presentation of His Sacrifice points to the Holy Spirit uniting different times and different peoples in one Teaching and Truth, while the divided practice and teaching of “Bible Christians” on this central point shows those “Bible Christians” are slaves to a spirit of disunity, i.e. the Enemy.
 
Because it’s contrary to his history. He’s shown himself as a living being, and he always speaks figurativly. “I’m living water, the vine, the bread of life, give us this day our daily bread, etc” He’s trying to show us that he is the real “food” that sustains us and gives us life and only w/him in us (his spirit) we live. He’s not saying bread is him, but he is the "bread."There’s a difference in my mind. That we should stop focusing on material and start focusing on spiritual. Isn’t that what the point was throughout his ministry?
Why is it that fundamentalist always elect a literal interpretation over a symbolic interpretation EXCEPT for every case that Catholics form a core doctrinal teaching on? The answer is because you put your faith in the same spirit of opposition and protest that Luther did. But you fail to accept that NOT ONE of the apostles or early church fathers ever believed in anything Luther and the reformers conjured up 1500 years after Christ died!Protestantism is founded on one specific non-biblical principal - opposition to all things uniquely Catholic and opposition to authority.

So, your faith and interpretation is based on nothing but an opposing view rather than on what Christ and the apostles taught and what is actually in scripture. Ask yourself how Luther and the reformers (who virtually all had severe emotional problems and grave human vices: fornicators, wanton sin, drunkeness, scrupulosity of mind etc.) could “correct” The Church teaching 1500 years distant from Christ without having ANY pedigree or personal teaching handed down to them from a descended of anyone who actually knew the saints and apostles. These men just invented this stuff out of thin air - its all a classic case of “a teaching of man”! The reformers were by and large academic nerds who just dreamt their doctrines up and invented theories based on anything they could remotely find that was plausible as long as it opposed the Catholic Church. The entire revolt was well engineered and contrived. These men were nothing but common miscreants, deviants, and rebels all working to the objective of usurping Church control and giving it over to the state and secular rule so they could do anything they wanted (e.g. Luther’s infamous “sin and sin boldly…”) with impunity.

Just look at the character of these men. Luther was a rabid anti-Jew who taught that Jews should be punished, abused and not tollerated. His teachings formed the core nucleas of hate for the Nazis. Wake up people - you are following a teaching of Satan himself!

James
 
  • you follow Luther and the reformers. You do not even follow common sense…
Even Luther believed in the Real Presence.
Because it’s contrary to his history. He’s shown himself as a living being, and he always speaks figurativly. “I’m living water, the vine, the bread of life, give us this day our daily bread, etc” He’s trying to show us that he is the real “food” that sustains us and gives us life and only w/him in us (his spirit) we live. He’s not saying bread is him, but he is the "bread."There’s a difference in my mind.
Actually, He is saying bread is Him. More specifically, "This [bread] is My Body." This is different from the other metaphors since Jesus never points to a gate, or a specific vine and says “This is me”. Although He does say something similar at the Last Supper.
 
Because it’s contrary to his history. He’s shown himself as a living being, and he always speaks figurativly. “I’m living water, the vine, the bread of life, give us this day our daily bread, etc” He’s trying to show us that he is the real “food” that sustains us and gives us life and only w/him in us (his spirit) we live. He’s not saying bread is him, but he is the "bread."There’s a difference in my mind. That we should stop focusing on material and start focusing on spiritual. Isn’t that what the point was throughout his ministry?
Well, here’s something to think about. Obviously, there are two different ways of interpreting this passage - figuratively, and literally. Since it can be debated, shouldn’t we look to the earliest extra-Biblical sources to see how the first and second generation after the Apostles (those trained by them personally) interpreted the passage? I would think that the Early Church Fathers would be incredibly important in this case.

Fortunately, I have provided the appropriate references above. Please read my post above (I apologize for the length) and let me know what you think.
 
Why is it that fundamentalist always elect a literal interpretation over a symbolic interpretation EXCEPT for every case that Catholics form a core doctrinal teaching on? The answer is because you put your faith in the same spirit of opposition and protest that Luther did. But you fail to accept that NOT ONE of the apostles or early church fathers ever believed in anything Luther and the reformers conjured up 1500 years after Christ died!Protestantism is founded on one specific non-biblical principal - opposition to all things uniquely Catholic and opposition to authority.

So, your faith and interpretation is based on nothing but an opposing view rather than on what Christ and the apostles taught and what is actually in scripture. Ask yourself how Luther and the reformers (who virtually all had severe emotional problems and grave human vices: fornicators, wanton sin, drunkeness, scrupulosity of mind etc.) could “correct” The Church teaching 1500 years distant from Christ without having ANY pedigree or personal teaching handed down to them from a descended of anyone who actually knew the saints and apostles. These men just invented this stuff out of thin air - its all a classic case of “a teaching of man”! The reformers were by and large academic nerds who just dreamt their doctrines up and invented theories based on anything they could remotely find that was plausible as long as it opposed the Catholic Church. The entire revolt was well engineered and contrived. These men were nothing but common miscreants, deviants, and rebels all working to the objective of usurping Church control and giving it over to the state and secular rule so they could do anything they wanted (e.g. Luther’s infamous “sin and sin boldly…”) with impunity.

Just look at the character of these men. Luther was a rabid anti-Jew who taught that Jews should be punished, abused and not tollerated. His teachings formed the core nucleas of hate for the Nazis. Wake up people - you are following a teaching of Satan himself!

James
James,

Not long ago you started a thread, rightly criticizing Lutherans for continuing to have a condemnation of the papacy as antichrist in the confession thus:
And yet here you use the same condemnations of Luther. Your outrage in the previous thread is called into question by your words here.
Jon*
 
I am thinking of joining Catholicism but can’t fully accept the doctrine of transubstantiation/real presence. I know Catholics use John 6 as evidence, but I see it as evidence against it! Read John 6:63-64, " The Spirit gives life; the flesh counts for nothing. The words I have spoken to you are spirit and they are life. Yet there are some of you who do not believe." Catholics say if Jesus were speaking figuratively previously in the chapter he would’ve stopped those that walked away to explain. Well, that’s what he does in verse 63. Can someone explain to me how Catholics interpret that?
Look for scriptural support for transubstantiation then, look at Ex. ch. 12. Christ is our pascial sacrifice, is he not. He saves us from eternal death just as the slaughter of the unblemished lamb saved the OT jews from death. In Ex. ch. 12 the lamb must be consumed and any left over must be burnt.

“The flesh counts for nothing” agrument is easily understood. The idea that Christ’s flesh count for nothing is sort of unchristian when you think about it. Christ’s flesh was sacrified so that we might live. If his spirit was all that we needed then he didn’t have to die the horrible death that he did. If his spirit was all that was need then God would have allow that cup to pass from him in the garden.
 
One needs to have a thorough understanding of the Covenant, the Passover, the continued celebration of the Passover, The New Covenant, the Last Supper, and the Passion. Pick up the book A Father Who Keeps His Promises:… by Scott Hahn, it explains these quite well. With this enlightenment it may help you to see the fulfillment of the OT in the NT.

The Bible is a continuing story of the salvation of man through the perspective of God.

Kind of surprising this book isn’t offered to others, it makes a pretty clear picture of what had happened with the covenants.
 
Christ is not only present in our services, he’s present wherever a believer goes because his spirit lives in us! 🙂 Do Catholics believe he is only w/them while they have the Eucharist in them? He said he will never leave us.
In John 6, some take ‘spirit’ to mean ‘symbolic’.
I’m sure your sentence above wouldn’t be correct if we made the subsitution.
Christ is not only present in our services, he’s present wherever a believer goes because his symbolic lives in us!
The Trinity is not the Father, Son, and Holy Symbolic.

I think we cannot even fathom the reality of ‘spirit’.
I think our current physical ‘reality’ is but a shadow, a dream compared to the reality we’ll know when we are fully in the spirit in heaven.

I see ‘spirit’ as MORE real than current physicality.

In no way can ‘spirit’ be equated with ‘symbolic’.
Jesus was speaking literally in John 6.

michel
 
James,

Not long ago you started a thread, rightly criticizing Lutherans for continuing to have a condemnation of the papacy as antichrist in the confession thus:

And yet here you use the same condemnations of Luther. Your outrage in the previous thread is called into question by your words here.
Jon
I hear you Jon but I am not operating to a double standard - really I am not.

I won’t elaborate too greatly more since I don’t want to further derail this thread. But consider how I differ from the behavior of the leadership of the The Lutheran Church. I made a credible charge against one man - Luther. The history and personal life of the man is well documented. However, I did not do what the Lutheran Church et-all has done with letting an ambiguous free standing and unjustifiable charge against “the pope” stand indefinitely with each new pope.

Lutherans tell us they don’t believe any of this “pope is Satan” nonsense and propaganda anymore. That is good - yet the official church cannon still stands. So, since Lutheran’s let the charge still stand from pope to pope in official Lutheran documents that just tells me something ugly about Lutherans. That tells me Lutherans will say and think one thing privately but publicly they will say and believe another thing (officially) altogether. That kind of duplicity brings again into question the validity of the Lutheran religion (and all its down stream derivatives) as “Christian” on that basis alone. Clearly there is no repentance for a clear injustice that could be corrected at anytime. That is most definitely not Christlike. “By their fruits they shall be known”.

James
 
I think we cannot even fathom the reality of ‘spirit’.
I think our current physical ‘reality’ is but a shadow, a dream compared to the reality we’ll know when we are fully in the spirit in heaven.

I see ‘spirit’ as MORE real than current physicality.

michel
I absolutely concur. God the Father, Son and Holy Spirit CHOOSE to exist in spiritual form. Only the Son took on a human form and soul and hippostatically joined it to the Godhead to bind The Triune God and man intimately through an act of goodwill toward man. Since God in His three persons CHOOSES to exist within a spiritual domain we MUST assume that God CHOOSES to “be” in the most optimum and superior form of existence - SPIRIT. In spirit form we find the ability to transcend space and time and to not be limited in how we relate to others or with creation. Even when we are reunited with our perfected bodies after the 2nd judgement this will be a glorified body similar to what Jesus revealed in the transfiguration. That body will be physical, but not of the same biological nature as we have now. It will be a spirit endowed, physically transformed and perfected body just like Jesus’ was.

When Jesus speaks of Spirit he means more - not less.

James
 
Ok, correct me if I’m wrong, but I just read the quote from Luke you provided. It said that He (Jesus) took the bread and broke it, saying, “THIS IS MY BODY”. How is this not telling us to eat His body? There is no idea among the Early Church Fathers that has MORE evidence to support it (INCLUDING the Trinity) than the Real Presence (or perhaps you didn’t read through the other posts).
So you are suggesting that the Lord Jesus was actually giving His disciples His flesh to eat??

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