Transubstantiation?

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I won’t give a highly detailed answer; there are others who can do that. I guess the first thing that comes to my mind though, is the words of institution. Jesus holds the bread and the wine and says “This IS my body… This IS my blood.” It seems to me to infer a complete change of substance, not an admixture of Jesus with bread or wine.
Yes, but we also say it IS raining cats and dogs, when it isn’t really. The Bible is full of metaphor, and nowhere is it more apparent than in Jesus’s parables – He used metaphor all the time. It doesn’t seem like much of a “proof” to me.
 
Yes, but we also say it IS raining cats and dogs, when it isn’t really. The Bible is full of metaphor, and nowhere is it more apparent than in Jesus’s parables – He used metaphor all the time. It doesn’t seem like much of a “proof” to me.
I believe John 6:52-66 makes it clear that Christ was not talking in parables about this particular teaching.
 
Yes, but we also say it IS raining cats and dogs, when it isn’t really. The Bible is full of metaphor, and nowhere is it more apparent than in Jesus’s parables – He used metaphor all the time. It doesn’t seem like much of a “proof” to me.
Perhaps. But its not consistent with Jewish tradition to run from staggering odds (ref. David and Goliath) much less a metaphor is it?

How do you explain the Jews refusing to follow him in John 6:66? Where they running away in fear from a mere loaf of bread and a cup of wine? 🤷 And please don’t claim they were adverse to catching a case of food poisoning or didn’t like the meal since Jesus had just fed these same people not long ago with the prefiguring miracles of the fish and loaves.

John 6:53 - 69
53 So Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat **the flesh **of the Son of Man and drink His blood, you have no life in yourselves. 54 “He who eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day. 55 “For My flesh is true food, and My blood is true drink. 56 “He who eats **My flesh **and **drinks My blood **abides in Me, and I in him. 57 “As the living Father sent Me, and I live because of the Father, so he who eats Me, he also will live because of Me. 58 “This is the bread which came down out of heaven; not as the fathers ate and died; he who eats this bread will live forever.”

Words to the Disciples

59 These things He said in the synagogue as He taught in Capernaum. 60 Therefore many of His disciples, when they heard this said, “This is a difficult statement; who can listen to it?” 61 But Jesus, conscious that His disciples grumbled at this, said to them, “Does this cause you to stumble? 62 “What then if you see the Son of Man ascending to where He was before? 63 “It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing; the words that I have spoken to you are spirit and are life. 64 “But there are some of you who do not believe.” For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who it was that would betray Him. 65 And He was saying, “For this reason I have said to you, that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted him from the Father.”

Peter’s Confession of Faith

66 As a result of this many of His disciples withdrew and were not walking with Him anymore. 67 So Jesus said to the twelve, “You do not want to go away also, do you?” 68 Simon Peter answered Him, “Lord, to whom shall we go? You have words of eternal life. 69 “We have believed and have come to know that You are the Holy One of God.”

Jesus used His famous trademark signature words: “Truly Truly I say to you”. Jesus ALWAYS uses this preamble when He has something absolutely critical to one’s salvation. There is NO room to equivocate here.

Jesus also mentions that it is HIS BODY and BLOOD not once, or twice or even 3 times but 5 times!
He was not kidding. This is absolutely critical to His teaching.

Then Jesus’ disciples whine that this is a difficult teaching. Would the disciples whine if it was a mere symbol? NO! Does Jesus take that whining as an opportunity to say its a symbol and pander to them so they don’t get discouraged? NO! He acknowledges it is a difficult teaching by saying that he will prove just how serious His words are when he ascends to heaven. Then Jesus prophecies that some of His disciples will leave over this difficult teaching. And so they do a short time later in John 6:66.

Why would the tough and independent Jews who would also gladly die for their faith and who endured brutal Roman persecution ever run like children from a mere symbolic reference to His body and blood? Impossible - it’s not even remotely plausible to believe that. The only way anyone can read in symbolic presence is for doctrinal reasons contrary to what Jesus taught or because they do not trust Jesus at His word. Those that do not believe in real-presence are of the EXACT same ilk as those in John 6:66 who left Jesus - essentially losing faith in Him. :eek:

James
 
I actually don’t see how this supports real presence because it is in “commemoration” of Christ, this actually seems to go against real presence.
I don’t see how you get that my friend, when St. Paul plain out tells us that to receive unworthily makes one guilty of the body and blood of the Lord and that would simply not be possible if it was just a symbolic presence.

I can abuse a symbol of you (like this 🙂 ) all day long (like this, http://bestsmileys.com/violent/10.gif ) and it will never, ever make me guilty of your body and blood, will it?
 
Yes, but we also say it IS raining cats and dogs, when it isn’t really. The Bible is full of metaphor, and nowhere is it more apparent than in Jesus’s parables – He used metaphor all the time. It doesn’t seem like much of a “proof” to me.
CentralFLJames;4052739:
Perhaps. But its not consistent with Jewish tradition to run from staggering odds (ref. David and Goliath) much less a metaphor is it?

How do you explain the Jews refusing to follow him in John 6:66
? Where they running away in fear from a mere loaf of bread and a cup of wine? 🤷
James, I’m not “explaining” it – I’m just saying that there is room for error about this. Church scholars know that the first three gospels are grouped together for a reason – and John is separate because it was written later. For “facts” they rely on the first three much more than John, which they view as less reliable for factual information.

However, I’ve just looked up these passages in three Bibles and they are all quite different, which is interesting. The “gist” is the same, but the language itself seems to be a little fuzzy.

Still, on the topic of metaphors – was Peter literally a rock? In the parable of the seeds sown on good soil, rocky soil, hard soil, etc, don’t we understand that we are not literally seeds? We extrapolate into metaphor, as it was clear Jesus, in nearly all of his teaching, intended.

In the John passages above, the metaphor is nourishment – spiritual nourishment from God. And I wonder about the (almost fundamentalist Protestant) attachment to literalism in this case, when such literalism is not promoted in all other cases.

But as far as the Jews, it’s easy for us to look back in hindsight, from the position of beliefs we already hold. But consider the Jews of the day. If I were there at the time, those words might have sounded like an exhortation to cannibalism!!! Eat my flesh and drink my blood? Some if not most would have been disgusted or worse, considered the idea to be a heinous sin.

Still, you might consider that the Jews who had taken the time to listen were trying to make sense of the metaphor, and it wasn’t clear to them. It was difficult so they left (John 6:66). It’s understandable. Would you waste your time hanging with someone who appeared to be raving about cannibalism and not making his metaphors more clear?

In my current Bible studies I am learning that this cannibalism idea, among other things, is what stimulated the later persecutions of early Christians. That, and the “love feasts,” which were attended by “brothers and sisters” who kissed each other. People thought they were orgies, and along with the cannibalism, they were outraged.

Regardless, I’m not sure the word is or am is, in itself “proof”. If that were the case, you would have to go through the Bible (or especially the New Testament, or even just Jesus’s words) and claim that EVERY time he said is or am he meant it literally. I don’t think that claim can be made.

What this tells me is that the Church itself, in the centuries of doctrinal struggle after Jesus’s death, decided which is was real, and which is was not.

So I can say that to belong to the Catholic Church is to accept its teachings, but that the actual intentions of Jesus are still mysterious and open to interpretation when viewed directly – and that is, after the Gutenberg press and translations of the Bible began to be circulated widely, outside the monopoly of Church.

In a nutshell, I don’t think the Church controls God, His meanings, or His intentions. God is in charge. And the Church, as always, is still filled with, and run by, human sinners who make mistakes. Thus as humans we can never really say what is – we can only say what we believe.

To me it remains a mystery and although I may belong to the Church, the higher authority is God himself.
 
James, I’m not “explaining” it – I’m just saying that there is room for error about this. Church scholars know that the first three gospels are grouped together for a reason – and John is separate because it was written later. For “facts” they rely on the first three much more than John, which they view as less reliable for factual information.

However, I’ve just looked up these passages in three Bibles and they are all quite different, which is interesting. The “gist” is the same, but the language itself seems to be a little fuzzy.

Still, on the topic of metaphors – was Peter literally a rock? In the parable of the seeds sown on good soil, rocky soil, hard soil, etc, don’t we understand that we are not literally seeds? We extrapolate into metaphor, as it was clear Jesus, in nearly all of his teaching, intended.

In the John passages above, the metaphor is nourishment – spiritual nourishment from God. And I wonder about the (almost fundamentalist Protestant) attachment to literalism in this case, when such literalism is not promoted in all other cases.

But as far as the Jews, it’s easy for us to look back in hindsight, from the position of beliefs we already hold. But consider the Jews of the day. If I were there at the time, those words might have sounded like an exhortation to cannibalism!!! Eat my flesh and drink my blood? Some if not most would have been disgusted or worse, considered the idea to be a heinous sin.

Still, you might consider that the Jews who had taken the time to listen were trying to make sense of the metaphor, and it wasn’t clear to them. It was difficult so they left (John 6:66). It’s understandable. Would you waste your time hanging with someone who appeared to be raving about cannibalism and not making his metaphors more clear?

In my current Bible studies I am learning that this cannibalism idea, among other things, is what stimulated the later persecutions of early Christians. That, and the “love feasts,” which were attended by “brothers and sisters” who kissed each other. People thought they were orgies, and along with the cannibalism, they were outraged.

Regardless, I’m not sure the word is or am is, in itself “proof”. If that were the case, you would have to go through the Bible (or especially the New Testament, or even just Jesus’s words) and claim that EVERY time he said is or am he meant it literally. I don’t think that claim can be made.

What this tells me is that the Church itself, in the centuries of doctrinal struggle after Jesus’s death, decided which is was real, and which is was not.

So I can say that to belong to the Catholic Church is to accept its teachings, but that the actual intentions of Jesus are still mysterious and open to interpretation when viewed directly – and that is, after the Gutenberg press and translations of the Bible began to be circulated widely, outside the monopoly of Church.

In a nutshell, I don’t think the Church controls God, His meanings, or His intentions. God is in charge. And the Church, as always, is still filled with, and run by, human sinners who make mistakes. Thus as humans we can never really say what is – we can only say what we believe.

To me it remains a mystery and although I may belong to the Church, the higher authority is God himself.
:amen:
 
Yes, but we also say it IS raining cats and dogs, when it isn’t really. The Bible is full of metaphor, and nowhere is it more apparent than in Jesus’s parables – He used metaphor all the time. It doesn’t seem like much of a “proof” to me.
Yes, we say “It is raining cats and dogs,” as a metaphor. We don’t say “This rain IS cats and dogs.” That would be harder to take as a metaphor.

Jesus said “I am the vine,” and “I am the door.” He did not hold up a vine or a door and say, “This vine is me.” This door is me." One is metaphor. The other is not. He did hold up bread and say “This is my body.” He held up wine and said “This is the cup of my blood.”

The Church understood him to be speaking literally from the very first. That’s evident from all of Church history beginning with the apostolic age. The belief was never questioned for 1500 years until after the reformation.
 
James, I’m not “explaining” it – I’m just saying that there is room for error about this. Church scholars know that the first three gospels are grouped together for a reason – and John is separate because it was written later. For “facts” they rely on the first three much more than John, which they view as less reliable for factual information.

However, I’ve just looked up these passages in three Bibles and they are all quite different, which is interesting. The “gist” is the same, but the language itself seems to be a little fuzzy.

Still, on the topic of metaphors – was Peter literally a rock? In the parable of the seeds sown on good soil, rocky soil, hard soil, etc, don’t we understand that we are not literally seeds? We extrapolate into metaphor, as it was clear Jesus, in nearly all of his teaching, intended.

In the John passages above, the metaphor is nourishment – spiritual nourishment from God. And I wonder about the (almost fundamentalist Protestant) attachment to literalism in this case, when such literalism is not promoted in all other cases.

But as far as the Jews, it’s easy for us to look back in hindsight, from the position of beliefs we already hold. But consider the Jews of the day. If I were there at the time, those words might have sounded like an exhortation to cannibalism!!! Eat my flesh and drink my blood? Some if not most would have been disgusted or worse, considered the idea to be a heinous sin.

Still, you might consider that the Jews who had taken the time to listen were trying to make sense of the metaphor, and it wasn’t clear to them. It was difficult so they left (John 6:66). It’s understandable. Would you waste your time hanging with someone who appeared to be raving about cannibalism and not making his metaphors more clear?

In my current Bible studies I am learning that this cannibalism idea, among other things, is what stimulated the later persecutions of early Christians. That, and the “love feasts,” which were attended by “brothers and sisters” who kissed each other. People thought they were orgies, and along with the cannibalism, they were outraged.

Regardless, I’m not sure the word is or am is, in itself “proof”. If that were the case, you would have to go through the Bible (or especially the New Testament, or even just Jesus’s words) and claim that EVERY time he said is or am he meant it literally. I don’t think that claim can be made.

What this tells me is that the Church itself, in the centuries of doctrinal struggle after Jesus’s death, decided which is was real, and which is was not.

So I can say that to belong to the Catholic Church is to accept its teachings, but that the actual intentions of Jesus are still mysterious and open to interpretation when viewed directly – and that is, after the Gutenberg press and translations of the Bible began to be circulated widely, outside the monopoly of Church.

In a nutshell, I don’t think the Church controls God, His meanings, or His intentions. God is in charge. And the Church, as always, is still filled with, and run by, human sinners who make mistakes. Thus as humans we can never really say what is – we can only say what we believe.

To me it remains a mystery and although I may belong to the Church, the higher authority is God himself.
Vanessa, but you are making my case here in SPADES.

Consider your comment again in detail:
**But as far as the Jews, it’s easy for us to look back in hindsight, from the position of beliefs we already hold. But consider the Jews of the day. If I were there at the time, those words might have sounded like an exhortation to cannibalism!!! Eat my flesh and drink my blood? Some if not most would have been disgusted or worse, considered the idea to be a heinous sin.

Still, you might consider that the Jews who had taken the time to listen were trying to make sense of the metaphor, and it wasn’t clear to them. It was difficult so they left (John 6:66). It’s understandable. Would you waste your time hanging with someone who appeared to be raving about cannibalism and not making his metaphors more clear?**

WHY would the Jews be running from a metaphor???
You have just given a proof text for why it CAN NOT BE a metaphor. If he was speaking figuratively these people would have had no reason to doubt. Further, the apostles would have had no reason to doubt him and express that doubt. Further Jesus would have clarified as symbolic if after everyone questioned Him it were not true as He has ALWAYS DONE in EVERY other case of confusion. And finally go back and COUNT the number of times that Jesus said this IS my body.

I can’t accept the rationale that the disciples could accept Jesus metaphorically as the vine, the door, the narrow gate, the good shepherd, the son of man etc. but then run away from a metaphor that bread and wine was His body and blood. Nope - its EXTREMELY clear that the Jews knew explicitly as did His inner circle of followers (the apostles) that He was speaking literally. The only way to come to a different conclusion is to COMPLETELY reject John’s Gospel as inspired. One lives literally by ALL of the word of God or BY NONE OF IT. Jesus is the Living Word of God and one must live by eating ALL of the Word of God. I can’t believe anyone can not see the literalism in the implication that to live by ALL the Word of God one MUST eat the Living Word of God in Jesus’ body and blood. It’s so crystal clear and symmetrical.

James
 
Yes, but we also say it IS raining cats and dogs, when it isn’t really. The Bible is full of metaphor, and nowhere is it more apparent than in Jesus’s parables – He used metaphor all the time. It doesn’t seem like much of a “proof” to me.
Can you cite some metaphors where Jesus said he was something that he was literally not?
 
JTBT,

Yes, well, he is not *explicitly intending *to teach transubstantiation but he ends up doing a pretty good job of leading one to it as a reasonable conclusion.

He makes the point that Christ’s words “This is my body” cannot be taken as either a metaphor or a symbol. As illustration, he holds up a bible and says “This is a bible,” showing the absurdity of thinking that this represents a bible, or that this is a symbol of a bible. The language doesn’t work that way.

But – the language also doesn’t work to posit two distinct “things” at the same time. It’s not a bible and something else. You couldn’t hold up something and say “This is X” and mean for it to both be X *and *Y.

It seems his only argument against transubstantiation is that Rome “explained the bread away”. He posits that Lutherans “take Christ at His word” that Christ can do what he says. But that isn’t taking Christ at His word at all.

“This is my Body” means that only His body is there, and those things naturally joined to His body.

VC
 
JTBT:

I was once a Baptist. Some of the most loving, most committed Christians i’ve ever known were the same. If you have the time, please tell me what you think of the idea that Jesus is somehow the bread and wine we consume in church.

🙂
 
No doctrine worth its salt can be summed up in an internet post: God’s revelation can’t be reduced to soundbites. I strongly suggest you read the information provided if you want a real understanding of the subject: newadvent.org/cathen/05573a.htm
I’m not looking for cute phrases, however, i think that such have their place and may make conversations more memorable, if not more interesting. For example, the phrase you used, “worth its salt” has an interesting origin. Salt in the time of Christ was used to pay the Roman soldiers, as it was a rare commodity.

Cute sound bites aside, what i’m looking for is a thoughtful conversation, if you are up for it. I take it, then, you assume i’m thoughtless, or you have no desire to impart the wisdom you have been given, or perhaps you disagree with Socrates.

I cannot help feeling, Phaedrus, that writing has one grave fault in common with painting; for the creations of the painter stand there true as life, and yet if you ask them a question they maintain a solemn silence.

The same may be said of written words. You would imagine they had intelligence, but if, out of a desire to learn, you ask for an explanation of something that has been said, they produce the same unvarying meaning, over and over again. Once they have been written down, they promiscuously knock about the world anywhere at all, among those who understand them, and equally among those for whom they are completely unsuitable; they do not know to whom they should or should not speak; and if they are mistreated or unjustly slandered, they always require the author of their being to rescue them; for the book cannot protect or defend itself.

Phaedrus 275
 
You know, for all the trouble you went through to write that, you could have read the link.
 
JTBT:

I was once a Baptist. Some of the most loving, most committed Christians i’ve ever known were the same. If you have the time, please tell me what you think of the idea that Jesus is somehow the bread and wine we consume in church.

🙂
Well as far not explaining away the Bread and Wine when Jesus said this is my body this IS my blood, he was standing there holding the bread and wine with he body, it is a mystery how the bread was his body at that moment considering he was still standing there with his body…

My point is the bread and wine doesn’t have to stop being in order for Christ to be truly present, and we don’t have to ,nor should we, try to figure out how he is present just know that he is present,
to quote C.S. Lewis *“Christ said “take and eat” not take and understand.” *🙂
 
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