Transubstantiation?

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Vanessa, but you are making my case here in SPADES. WHY would the Jews be running from a metaphor??? You have just given a proof text for why it CAN NOT BE a metaphor. If he was speaking figuratively these people would have had no reason to doubt. Further, the apostles would have had no reason to doubt him and express that doubt. Further Jesus would have clarified as symbolic if after everyone questioned Him it were not true as He has ALWAYS DONE in EVERY other case of confusion.
James, I think you missed my point (or one of them). What I said was that the Jews were sure it WAS a metaphor, but it was so bizarre and nonsensical (to them, from their worldview, and from their own understanding of their own religion), that they simply walked away and refused to waste their time any more. This is a far cry from “running away” in fear. And I don’t see how it has anything to do with doubt. If you saw (what appeared to be) a demented man on a streetcorner, raving about aliens coming, you wouldn’t “doubt” – most likely you would just cross to the other side of the street and try to ignore his lunacy. Conversely if, having a good heart and an open mind, you had given him a chance, and really tried to listen to what he was saying, then asked questions, and he still did not appear to be lucid… you wouldn’t “run away”, and you wouldn’t “doubt”, you would simply chalk him up as a lunatic, turn your back and leave. You might even be vocal about it, in case anyone else seemed likely to fall for his ridiculous claims.

And please remember, I am only trying to describe, like in real life, what was probably happening in the minds of those Jews in John chapter 6 (since you asked).
The only way to come to a different conclusion is to COMPLETELY reject John’s Gospel as inspired. One lives literally by ALL of the word of God or BY NONE OF IT.
Perhaps you can clarify then, are you Catholic? Because the Magisterium doesn’t believe this. In fact, the Church’s view of the Bible as inspired but NOT literal or inerrant, is a huge difference it has with Protestants, especially modern evangelicals, who believe in Biblical inerrancy. Do you realize that Biblical inerrancy (or literalism) is a fairly new idea? You can Google this. Biblical inerrancy is a concept that has only been around for about a 100 years. Until then, all these centuries of Catholicism and no one, until 100 years ago, took the Bible to be 100% literal, factual, or inerrant. The Magisterium still does not believe it.

If you want to look into this yourself, the best way is to read the two genealogies of Jesus, in Matthew and in Luke. Count the names and the order they are in, you will see they are wildly different. Here’s a page on it, but you can also read them yourself:
bible-history.com/jesus/jesusMat_1117_Lk_32338.htm

These two are among the most easily accessible places that show variation, but there are many other places in the Bible where the text has to be taken with somewhat of a grain of salt.

Lastly, I think you are mistaken when you say that Jesus always, in every case, clarified for his listeners literally what he meant. I can’t find very many examples of that at all – he always used metaphor, it was the way Jews spoke and taught, because stories “stick” in our hearts and minds better than just facts.

And just because someone says it’s raining cats and dogs does not mean that cats and dogs are literally falling from the sky. We use that turn of phrase to deliver a “feeling” or an “inner knowing” that is larger than words… or a mystery. And Jesus was a master at this. But that’s the point. Metaphors are universal in time and allow for growth and depth. Literalism does not. Literalism says “the world is flat” – and when later, you find out it isn’t, you have to throw that concept out the window. Metaphors on the other hand communicate truths that are applicable anywhere, at any time, under any circumstance. They are always true and can never be disproven. So why would Jesus not speak in metaphor? It’s the best way to communicate universal Truth and reach peoples’ hearts, in all times and places.
 
James, I think you missed my point (or one of them). What I said was that the Jews were sure it WAS a metaphor, but it was so bizarre and nonsensical (to them, from their worldview, and from their own understanding of their own religion), that they simply walked away and refused to waste their time any more. …
That is just not plausible Vinessa. The others that left were disciples and followers. They were familiar with Christ’s teaching style. If you put yourself truly into the Jewish context you would see just how wrong you are. These Jews were EXPECTING the messiah. There had already been a few false ones before Jesus and they were expecting a deliver from the Romans. They had just witnessed the miracles of the loaves and fishes. They knew His reputation and his conflict with the Pharisees and Jewish authorities. They knew Jesus was “a maverick” and was severely rocking the boat. No, the reason they left was because they knew he was speaking literally and called himself the bread that came down from heaven etc. They KNEW exactly what he was saying since it all dove tailed with every bit of scripture. But by speaking in the manner He did Jesus had to die and they were expecting a conquering Messiah. Also, the Jewish were extremely ritually pure in their food preparation etc. and this was just too much for them since Jesus was forcing them to recognize that the Jewish religious life and the old covenant was about to change forever.
Perhaps you can clarify then, are you Catholic? Because the Magisterium doesn’t believe this. In fact, the Church’s view of the Bible as inspired but NOT literal or inerrant, is a huge difference it has with Protestants, especially modern evangelicals, who believe in Biblical inerrancy. Do you realize that Biblical inerrancy (or literalism) is a fairly new idea? You can Google this. Biblical inerrancy is a concept that has only been around for about a 100 years. Until then, all these centuries of Catholicism and no one, until 100 years ago, took the Bible to be 100% literal, factual, or inerrant. The Magisterium still does not believe it.

If you want to look into this yourself, the best way is to read the two genealogies of Jesus, in Matthew and in Luke. Count the names and the order they are in, you will see they are wildly different. Here’s a page on it, but you can also read them yourself:
bible-history.com/jesus/jesusMat_1117_Lk_32338.htm

These two are among the most easily accessible places that show variation, but there are many other places in the Bible where the text has to be taken with somewhat of a grain of salt.

Lastly, I think you are mistaken when you say that Jesus always, in every case, clarified for his listeners literally what he meant. I can’t find very many examples of that at all – he always used metaphor, it was the way Jews spoke and taught, because stories “stick” in our hearts and minds better than just facts.

And just because someone says it’s raining cats and dogs does not mean that cats and dogs are literally falling from the sky. We use that turn of phrase to deliver a “feeling” or an “inner knowing” that is larger than words… or a mystery. And Jesus was a master at this. But that’s the point. Metaphors are universal in time and allow for growth and depth. Literalism does not. Literalism says “the world is flat” – and when later, you find out it isn’t, you have to throw that concept out the window. Metaphors on the other hand communicate truths that are applicable anywhere, at any time, under any circumstance. They are always true and can never be disproven. So why would Jesus not speak in metaphor? It’s the best way to communicate universal Truth and reach peoples’ hearts, in all times and places.
Of course I am Catholic Vinessa. You are wrong about the Magisterium. The NT is living and breathing 100% catholic teaching. The Entire Bible is CATHOLIC. Who do you think assembled it? Have you read Bible history? What you are confusing is the fact that Catholics are 100% scriptural but also use apostolic tradition as equally valid since tradition never contradicts scripture but helps us properly interpret it in the same manner that the apostles did. It is impossible to read the bible with no period historical knowledge and tradition and understand scripture. Scripture even tells us that it is complex and MUST be taught orally and by tradition. The Bible has many different literary styles in it and Catholics know from tradition how to discern the proper style (metaphor, literal, historical, apocalyptic, psalm etc.). It is sometimes literal and sometimes allegorical or metaphor. We know which is which since we are the experts in The Catholic Bible and have been teaching it longer than any other Church on the planet.

Do you think that the average Protestant who rebelled against the Church in Luther’s time could even read or right (Greek, and Latin) - much less discern literal from metaphor? 😉

James
 
you left out the possiablility that I honestly looked into the claims of Rome and found them unconvincing; Protestants in general are averse to the structure of the RC church because of the abuse that can filter from the top down … the Bishop of Rome was the first among EQUALS in the early church, not the head of the Church; there is only one head and that is Christ.
Right on JTBT. I’m Catholic but I have a problem with these things too! I love Jesus, and I do think the Catholic Church has kept the heart and the core theology of Christian teachings safe and clean all these years. I also think the tripartate wisdom of Bible + Magisterium + Body of Christ (the people, you and me) has been brilliant for keeping it together – compared to all the bizarre variations currently out there that justify anything. But I don’t believe that a global, patriarchal corporation locked away in ivory towers, unaccountable to their followers or the world, is what Jesus had in mind. It’s definitely not how He lived!! And I know this is slightly off topic, but I watched three clearheaded videos last week on the pedophile scandals and how they were handled by the Church. When I think of the priorities that governed the bishops’ decisions, it’s really obvious how far the institution has strayed from the teachings of Christ. Which is not to say the Protestants are doing any better!! But I think we Catholics need to start turning over a few money tables in the temple ourselves… Call me a radical or a revolutionary, fine. I’d be in Jesus’s company! But you are absolutely right, and to be honest I think Catholics need to look at this more seriously since we, as the Body of Christ (together as Christians), are one third of the system we hold to – equal (collectively) to each of the other two elements, the Magisterium and the Bible. And if we simply and only follow the other two elements (Magisterium and Bible), and abdicate our responsiblity to also live and speak independently, directly from the conscience God wrote in our hearts, then I believe we are letting God down by not doing our part.

Pardon the rant, but I guess people can pick up their coins now… 😉 Thanks!
 
You are wrong about the Magisterium. The NT is living and breathing 100% catholic teaching. The Entire Bible is CATHOLIC.
From The Catholic Encyclopedia:

…the Bible bears throughout the distinct impress of the circumstances of place and time, methods of composition, etc., in which its various parts came into existence, and of these circumstances careful account must be taken, in the interests of accurate scriptural interpretation. As a literature, our sacred books have been transcribed during many centuries by all manner of copyists to the ignorance and carelessness of many of whom they still bear witness in the shape of numerous textual errors…more at the link above.

And yes, I studied Bible History and Early Christian History, at University of North Carolina, Chapel Hill, plus have been involved in several Bible study groups and have read a lot on my own. My mom had over 25 Bibles in our house growing up, plus a HUGE concordance. She was a mad Bible studier and cross referenced between all kinds of translations. The Greek-Hebrew-English Interlinear Bible is a fantastic resource. The Bible is a gorgeous and beautiful book.

Thanks!
 
Well as far not explaining away the Bread and Wine when Jesus said this is my body this IS my blood, he was standing there holding the bread and wine with he body, it is a mystery how the bread was his body at that moment considering he was still standing there with his body…

My point is the bread and wine doesn’t have to stop being in order for Christ to be truly present, and we don’t have to ,nor should we, try to figure out how he is present just know that he is present,
to quote C.S. Lewis *“Christ said “take and eat” not take and understand.” *🙂
Yes, i’ve asked the same questions myself and have yet to find an answer i can apprehend, much less comprehend. I mean, i can apprehend that God (the Spirit of God) might be present in the bread and wine. The difficulty i have is apprehending how Jesus (the human body of Jesus) might be present in the bread and wine. I’m still seeking answers.

The Baptists with whom i used to hang out spent a great deal of time looking for truth in the Bible. Are you such a Baptist yourself, and if you are, have you found anything in Scripture that sheds light on this subject?
 
From The Catholic Encyclopedia:

…the Bible bears throughout the distinct impress of the circumstances of place and time, methods of composition, etc., in which its various parts came into existence, and of these circumstances careful account must be taken, in the interests of accurate scriptural interpretation. As a literature, our sacred books have been transcribed during many centuries by all manner of copyists to the ignorance and carelessness of many of whom they still bear witness in the shape of numerous textual errors…more at the link above.

And yes, I studied Bible History and Early Christian History, at University of North Carolina, Chapel Hill, plus have been involved in several Bible study groups and have read a lot on my own. My mom had over 25 Bibles in our house growing up, plus a HUGE concordance. She was a mad Bible studier and cross referenced between all kinds of translations. The Greek-Hebrew-English Interlinear Bible is a fantastic resource. The Bible is a gorgeous and beautiful book.

Thanks!
I think we are talking past each other. I get completely mixed signals from you. Are you studying to be Catholic and are you just arguing from the Protestant perspective just for sake of argument?

Of course we Catholics need the magisterium - this is how Catholics get the proper interpretation of scripture that reconciles it with the deposit of faith and apostolic tradition. It is the magisterium that we can bring all disputes of interpretation to for final guidance.

It is for lack of a single recognized Protestant teaching authority and ironically their aversion and paranoia to authority that Protestants arrive at the disgraceful condition of over 30 thousand different sects (depending on how one counts them); each calling themselves the true church. Each time a Protestant does not agree with their pastor’s interpretation they go shopping for a new church or spin off a new denomination to preach what they want to hear. Catholics are free to shop around and go to another Catholic church but they always get the exact same teaching. That was one of the most remarkable things I discovered in my world travels. I could go to any Catholic Church on the planet and easily follow the liturgy, understand and recognize the teachings as “Catholic” and feel at home.

James

James
 
I had never thought about what I have highlighted in your post. Frankly, you are just a font of knowledge and I thank God for the blessings He has givien us in bringing you here to catholic answers. Enough gushing, back to learning. God Bless you James…carry on!
Thanks mary - that was very kind of you to say that. 👍

James
 
so are you saying that Jesus cannot be both God and Man?
You are confusing substance (being, is-ness) with nature. Jesus has two natures, but he is one substance, the Divine Person, the Word.

For the bread and wine to remain while Jesus is present there would need to be two substances existing together. There are not, OTOH, two substances in Jesus Christ but only one.
 
You are confusing substance (being, is-ness) with nature. Jesus has two natures, but he is one substance, the Divine Person, the Word.

For the bread and wine to remain while Jesus is present there would need to be two substances existing together. There are not, OTOH, two substances in Jesus Christ but only one.
Thanks. I was working through to this but hadn’t artilculated it. The principle of non-contradiction says that two things cannot both be true at the same time and IN THE SAME WAY. You just stated the point.
 
Thanks. I was working through to this but hadn’t artilculated it. The principle of non-contradiction says that two things cannot both be true at the same time and IN THE SAME WAY. You just stated the point.
We’re a team! 🙂
 
You are confusing substance (being, is-ness) with nature. Jesus has two natures, but he is one substance, the Divine Person, the Word.

For the bread and wine to remain while Jesus is present there would need to be two substances existing together. There are not, OTOH, two substances in Jesus Christ but only one.
there doesn’t have to be two substances in Jesus Christ, only in the Bread.
 
there doesn’t have to be two substances in Jesus Christ, only in the Bread.
Which is why when you asked isn’t Jesus both God and Man, your analogy did not fit the situation. Jesus Christ is one substance, but your view if the Eucharist posits two substances.
 
JTBT,

Do you see why appealing to the hypostatic union doesn’t make sense?

VC
 
no actually I don’t, why can the bread not be both fully bread and fully Body, and the wine be both fully wine and fully blood???
Because that is not what Christ instituted. He said “…this** is** my body…”
He did not say “…this is bread and my body…”
 
no actually I don’t, why can the bread not be both fully bread and fully Body, and the wine be both fully wine and fully blood???
You don’t see the contradiction in the word “fully” ? I submit that it would be a logical fallacy to have a thing be two physical things simultaneously and fully each the other. Jesus does not graft His divinity nor His humanity into the fullness of bread nor does bread impart its essence into the Divine.

James
 
no actually I don’t, why can the bread not be both fully bread and fully Body, and the wine be both fully wine and fully blood???
JTBT,

Look at what you are doing – you are using bread as the locus for the union of “breadness” and “bodyness”. In the incarnation the locus of union is the person of Jesus – who is both God and man. It is conceivable that a person can have two natures, but how can a piece of bread be two substances? What’s more how can any one thing be two substances – since a substance is what makes a thing itself. If some thing is two substances, than it is not one thing at all, but two.*

VC

*unless it is a so-called “incomplete substance”, such as our body and soul, which when united form one complete substance: a human being. But certainly neither bread or Christ are incomplete substances, needing the other to be a compete substance the way a human being needs both body and soul.
 
JT:

It’s OK if you haven’t the time to answer the question. I was curious what you thought as i’m still seeking answers to the very same question.

Post 225
 
Yes, i’ve asked the same questions myself and have yet to find an answer i can apprehend, much less comprehend. I mean, i can apprehend that God (the Spirit of God) might be present in the bread and wine. The difficulty i have is apprehending how Jesus (the human body of Jesus) might be present in the bread and wine. I’m still seeking answers.
The key is that Jesus is not present IN the bead and wine. He is present under the appearances of the bread and wine. The bread and wine are gone but their appearances remain. Underneath those appearances is Jesus in his entirety, body and blood, soul and divinity. But the appearances of the bread and wine do not inhere in the body of Jesus. (Since the substance of the bread and wine is gone, they do not inhere in any substance.)

So yes, Jesus could be at the last supper holding his own body under the appearances of bread and wine just as we can receive the very same body (not a different one) under the appearances of bread and wine.
 
Yes, i’ve asked the same questions myself and have yet to find an answer i can apprehend, much less comprehend. I mean, i can apprehend that God (the Spirit of God) might be present in the bread and wine. The difficulty i have is apprehending how Jesus (the human body of Jesus) might be present in the bread and wine. I’m still seeking answers.

The Baptists with whom i used to hang out spent a great deal of time looking for truth in the Bible. Are you such a Baptist yourself, and if you are, have you found anything in Scripture that sheds light on this subject?
well I will try to answer you, But I mean it really is a mystery to me. and as you can see from my post I really do see it as tied to the incarnation, think about that one for a minute, God creator of the universe humbles himself, and is born of a women, washes peoples feet, and ALLOWS himself to be killed, I mean wow, so believing all of this I don’t see it as a stretch to say yeah God is present with the Bread and Wine, and I have found enough scriptural backing to make me accept that real presents is true, but what I have not found is that the bread is no longer there in fact I see that both are present.
1Co 10:16 -
Is not the cup of blessing which we bless a sharing in the blood of Christ? Is not the bread which we break a sharing in the body of Christ?

they are both there in this verse.
God Bless,
Jennifer
 
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