transubstantiation

[Rolltide]

I would highly recommend that you read the Catechism of the Catholic Church (you can Google it on-line) as well as (Oh Lord, why won’t people **ever **do this **first **before posting) going to the Catholic Answers web site library and looking up your question on this topic and on infallibility (I note you posted about that but you obviously have no understanding of what it is and apparently think that our Popes “know better than anybody” and just whip out ‘infallible statements’ whenever they choose, then ‘blast’ previous Pope’s infallible statements, yadda yadda. Please, spare yourself and us and look it up so that you know the questions to ask.)

Honestly, we love to have people come on with sincere questions. But it would help **you **to go to the many sources right here that can explain your questions ‘before’ you ask them. So that at least you’re questioning what we really do teach instead of what you incorrectly think is taught.

In all fairness, many Protestants are not even aware that such a thing as the Catechism even exists. Also, some people who find the forums don’t realize that the main section of the Catholic Answers site has a FAQ with tracts for the most common questions posed to Catholics. We truly need to give every single person on here the benefit of the doubt and use extreme charity when dealing with them, as for some, this will be their first experience dealing with Catholics. You can only leave a first impression once.

 

[Tantum_ergo]

Ok some very learned people out there…

If the miracle occurs every time and the lord changes the bread and wine into the blood and flesh of jesus, why doesnt he do a very simple yet convincing act of a god. Simply actualy turn the bread and wine into the flesh and blood of jesus. Surely an omnipotent and supernatural deity such as god could change the bread and wine without even giving it a thought. Seems strange that he would do such a thing and be lazy about it?
If i went to church on sunday and saw the bread and wine actualy being changed then i would be a convert right there.
Im wanting to be saved but aint feeling the lords presence just now.

Ill keep on looking.

Actually, it’s the ‘same miracle’. God doesn’t just keep on ‘changing bread and wine into Jesus’ over and over. The sacrifice on the altar is the very same sacrifice Christ made at Calvary as well as being the very same Last Supper that He ate with His disciples.

Here is a bit of Scripture (and this is not being ‘intolerant’ or unhelpful or nasty. After all, I’m not the one who expressed surprise that ‘anybody in their right mind’ (my emphasis) would partake of the Eucharst) which might help.

Wisdom 1: 1 Love justice, you that are the judges of the earth. Think of the Lord in goodness, and seek him in simplicity of heart. 2 For he is found by them that tempt him not: and he showeth himself to them that have faith in him. 3 For perverse thoughts separate from God: and his power, when it is tried, reproveth the unwise: 4 For wisdom will not enter into a malicious soul, nor dwell in a body subject to sins. 5 For the Holy Spirit of discipline will flee from the deceitful, and will withdraw himself from thoughts that are without understanding, and he shall not abide when iniquity cometh in.

 

[Rolltide]

Ok some very learned people out there…

If the miracle occurs every time and the lord changes the bread and wine into the blood and flesh of jesus, why doesnt he do a very simple yet convincing act of a god. Simply actualy turn the bread and wine into the flesh and blood of jesus. Surely an omnipotent and supernatural deity such as god could change the bread and wine without even giving it a thought. Seems strange that he would do such a thing and be lazy about it?
If i went to church on sunday and saw the bread and wine actualy being changed then i would be a convert right there.
Im wanting to be saved but aint feeling the lords presence just now.

Indeed, this miracle HAS occurred a few times in the past. I’m sure others on here can point you to the names of those various miracles, but I can think of twice off-hand that this has happened. In general, however, that’s not the form the miracle takes. The entire reasoning for transubstantiation is laid out in the Bible. Without going into a huge theological discussion, it is important to note that Jesus is referred to as “The Lamb of God”. In the Old Testament, lambs were sacrifices to God, but they had to be consumed afterward in order to be valid. The high priest Melkezidek also foreshadows the Last Supper by sacrificing bread and wine. In the New Testament, Jesus becomes both high priest and perfect sacrifice, so that no other sacrifice need be done again. Since God is outside of time, when we partake in Communion, we are rejoining the same sacrifice of Jesus on Calvary, which occurs for all time. In order for the sacrifice to be complete, however, we need to eat the sacrifice. This is not cannibalism because Jesus is alive, in his glorified body, as we all will be after the Last Judgment at the end of time. It is no longer possible to hurt him. Instead, it is a sign of our covenant with God.

 

[Tantum_ergo]

Good point, Rolltide. I truly did not think the post uncharitable in any way. After all, I did say that the Catechism could be Googled which I rather think would cover both those who ‘knew’ about it as well as those who did not.

And my comment about looking things up in the CA library was directed not to the OP solely but to everybody. Myself, I think it is common sense to check out resources on a site before ‘jumping into a forum’, but I don’t think that I called names or otherwise was nasty about it. But if I was, I’m truly sorry.

 

[delberto]

Indeed, this miracle HAS occurred a few times in the past. I’m sure others on here can point you to the names of those various miracles, but I can think of twice off-hand that this has happened. In general, however, that’s not the form the miracle takes. The entire reasoning for transubstantiation is laid out in the Bible. Without going into a huge theological discussion, it is important to note that Jesus is referred to as “The Lamb of God”. In the Old Testament, lambs were sacrifices to God, but they had to be consumed afterward in order to be valid. The high priest Melkezidek also foreshadows the Last Supper by sacrificing bread and wine. In the New Testament, Jesus becomes both high priest and perfect sacrifice, so that no other sacrifice need be done again. Since God is outside of time, when we partake in Communion, we are rejoining the same sacrifice of Jesus on Calvary, which occurs for all time. In order for the sacrifice to be complete, however, we need to eat the sacrifice. This is not cannibalism because Jesus is alive, in his glorified body, as we all will be after the Last Judgment at the end of time. It is no longer possible to hurt him. Instead, it is a sign of our covenant with God.

 

[Tantum_ergo]

Del, you might wait in vain for the ‘feeling’. Feelings are not necessarily an accurate indication of truth.

There have been, as noted, many instances of God giving us miracles. Thousands of people saw the sun ‘dance’ in Fatima in the early 20th century–and many of them were not Christians. But asking for signs is already an indication that we’re ‘hedging our bets’, isn’t it? Faith isn’t something that we give to something that is already ‘proven beyond a doubt’–it’s given to someone (God) as a response to the gift of faith He freely gives to us. We don’t ‘know’ for sure. . .but we believe. . .we ‘trust’. We have faith. You can’t ‘make yourself’ have faith on command. Though God has given you the gift of faith, or will do so (for we know that He gives sufficient grace to every person on earth for them to be saved), it is up to you to accept it or to reject it. It’s a difficult thing to take God on trust. . .especially in today’s very ‘skeptical’ climate which wants everything to be ‘proved’.

Maybe if you stopped asking for God to prove Himself on your terms, and simply opened yourself up to the possibility of desiring to have faith in Him on HIS terms. . . it would help. I pray it does.

 

[Rolltide]

Del, you might wait in vain for the ‘feeling’. Feelings are not necessarily an accurate indication of truth.

Excellent point. Mother Teresa, considered to be one of the most holy people of the entire twentieth century, had tremendous trouble trying to feel the presence of God for decades, but continued to persevere in her faith regardless.

 

[delberto]

Tantum ergo-
Let me explain myself, im not an atheist. Nor am i stubburn nor unwilling to change my viewpoint regarding god. Im also not asking for proof of god. Im only asking a pertinent question thats all.
On another small point, why do you speak of the lord in the masculine? do all catholics belive that god resemles the phisical charachteristics of males?why not female or genderless?
I understand that we are all " made in his image". Surely when were taking about an entity such as god (in the masculine), it further alienates believers/ disbelievers even further.
Wouldnt it be fairer to say that god is genderless as he is not a phisical being?

Please be patient with me as i know you are quick to become a little impatient with me.

 

[delberto]

. We truly need to give every single person on here the benefit of the doubt and use extreme charity when dealing with them, as for some, this will be their first experience dealing with Catholics. You can only leave a first impression once.

I was married to a catholic once. Even allowed my kids to be raised catholic- how telorant is that?
As a professor of history yo ofcourse will know that Scotland has many Catholics living in our population.
My first impression of catholics wasnt great. Sectarian division in Glasgow was a recipe for disaster. Catholics beating up protestants etc. Catholics being heaviliy involved in the I.R.A.
Not the most friendly people in the world.
However, i dont think your average catholic would endorse the murdering of innocent children by bombing them to pieces.

 

[Tantum_ergo]

Tantum ergo-
Let me explain myself, im not an atheist. Nor am i stubburn nor unwilling to change my viewpoint regarding god. Im also not asking for proof of god. Im only asking a pertinent question thats all.
On another small point, why do you speak of the lord in the masculine? do all catholics belive that god resemles the phisical charachteristics of males?why not female or genderless?
I understand that we are all " made in his image". Surely when were taking about an entity such as god (in the masculine), it further alienates believers/ disbelievers even further.
Wouldnt it be fairer to say that god is genderless as he is not a phisical being?

Please be patient with me as i know you are quick to become a little impatient with me.

Gee, I hope that I’m not 'quick to become impatient with you or anybody. Let’s see if I can help. I never called you an atheist or stubborn so don’t worry.

There’s been a lot of ‘back-and-forth’ so if you’ll refresh my memory with which is the pertinent question, I’d appreciate it. I want to be sure I’m answering the question you want answered.

And of course, God is a pure spirit. But Scripture refers to Him most often as Father (as does Jesus Himself). Furthermore, Jesus (who is God the Son, Second Person of the Trinity) is likewise masculine. God certainly created us male and female in His image, but after all, we are spirit (like God) and flesh (like God but only God the Son). Certainly we have no problems speaking of God ‘caring for us like a mother’ --that’s Scripture too–but since we know Christ is male (not female) and that Christ spoke of Father (not Mother) it seems only respectful that we refer to God as Christ did. I mean, He would know, wouldn’t He? If God had some attribute of the feminine such that He wished to be addressed as “she”, I’m sure He/She would let us know authoritatively. Certainly in creating a woman as His most perfect creature He showed His love for all women. In Scripture too God assures us that men and women are of equal worth (though they are not ‘interchangeable’. They are complementary, each needing the other for completeness overall though individual women and individual men do not necessarily ‘have to have’ a spouse to be fully complete people. I mean that God’s plan for humanity requires both men and women for its full completeness.

Hope that helps.

 

[jmcrae]

Ok some very learned people out there…

If the miracle occurs every time and the lord changes the bread and wine into the blood and flesh of jesus, why doesnt he do a very simple yet convincing act of a god. Simply actualy turn the bread and wine into the flesh and blood of jesus.

First, because He commands us to eat it; not to analyze it.

Second, out of deference to our weak humanity, He comes to us under the appearances of ordinary food, so that we can eat it in good conscience - if He came in His fully resurrected form to each and every communicant, being (as I understand it) six feet tall and rather hairy, we would be disinclined to eat Him - and if He came as dead flesh, then it would, in fact (as you accuse in your first post) be a kind of cannibalism.

Surely an omnipotent and supernatural deity such as god could change the bread and wine without even giving it a thought. Seems strange that he would do such a thing and be lazy about it?
If i went to church on sunday and saw the bread and wine actualy being changed then i would be a convert right there.

There are Eucharistic miracles; the most famous one is at Lanciano in Italy - the Host was consecrated some time in the 600s AD, changed to the flesh of a human heart in the priest’s hands, and is still soft and warm to the touch today (and even occasionally bleeds); you can visit it even today.

Im wanting to be saved but aint feeling the lords presence just now.

The heart is deceptive above all things - don’t go by feelings alone. Use your God-given brains, too.

 

[Rolltide]

I was married to a catholic once. Even allowed my kids to be raised catholic- how telorant is that?
As a professor of history yo ofcourse will know that Scotland has many Catholics living in our population.
My first impression of catholics wasnt great. Sectarian division in Glasgow was a recipe for disaster. Catholics beating up protestants etc. Catholics being heaviliy involved in the I.R.A.
Not the most friendly people in the world.
However, i dont think your average catholic would endorse the murdering of innocent children by bombing them to pieces.

It’s also important to remember that the violence in Scotland and Ireland had much to do with politics that just happened to fall along religious lines (not that this in any way excuses it, but it’s more complex than just religion). The Catholic Church is not made up of perfect people, because there is no such thing, besides Jesus and Mary. In fact, someone once said that the Catholic Church is a hospital for sinners, not a house for saints. There are plenty of flawed people within the church, but Catholicism strives to teach people the right path. Much like utopia, God’s rules are impossible to follow, but we need to try to always do our best. Sadly, many do not, but that’s true of any religion.

 

[delberto]

So god is male.

I suppose that would explain why he is so jealous and vengeful?
Why he is very quick at slaughtering his enemies?

You cannot really believe that god is male. There has to be doubt in your head that the bible was wrote in the days when women were treated like meat. Slanted perspective by the writers perhaps?

When you think of god, do you have an image of a six foot hairy male? cos that could be me you know…

 

[jmcrae]

So god is male.

Nobody said that. But God does have male characteristics - He is the Source of our being (like the father of a child is the source of that child), and not just a vessel that carries it (like the mother of that child).

He also has female characteristics - He does carry us like a mother carries her child, and covers us like a mother hen covers her chicks. Jesus said this. Jesus also taught us to pray “Our Father,” to remind us that God is our Source; the cause of our existence, and not only a rather important part of it.

I suppose that would explain why he is so jealous and vengeful?
Why he is very quick at slaughtering his enemies?

Well, now you’re arguing with misunderstanding about the Bible; not the Church. The Church teaches that God loves all nations.

You cannot really believe that god is male. There has to be doubt in your head that the bible was wrote in the days when women were treated like meat. Slanted perspective by the writers perhaps?

What about the Book of Ruth, or the Book of Esther?

And by the way, in case you don’t know it, you are talking to people who believe that a Woman is the Queen of Heaven, and that women are God’s greatest creation upon the earth.

When you think of god, do you have an image of a six foot hairy male? cos that could be me you know…

Because that’s what the Shroud of Turin looks like.

 

[teachccd]

What happened to transubstantiation? When Jesus said, “This is my Body” do you say," No it’s not"??

 

[teachccd]

When you think of god, do you have an image of a six foot hairy male? cos that could be me you know…

 

[zach_dunn]

why would anyone in their right mind want to eat the blood and body of jesus?

because Jesus told us to.

 

[teachccd]

I simply dont get it? why would anyone in their right mind want to eat the blood and body of jesus? does it in some way give you extra belief? does it empower you in some way. Why isnt it just good enough to pray to him or worship him?

Those might have been the same questions asked by those who left Jesus in John 6:66. There were two groups there. Those that left and those who stayed. Those two groups remain today. “This saying is hard, who can accept it?” John 6:60

It’s all there. Just open your heart first and then your Bible. Do Catholics really believe that Jesus is fully present in the Eucharist? You bet we do. If it was good enough for the Apostles, it’s good enough for us…the One, Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church…peace…teachccd

 

[narrowpath]

This site has many accounts of eucharistic miracles:

therealpresence.org/eucharst/mir/lanciano.html

 

[delberto]

Narrowpath,

If i was god, i wouldnt waste my time doing miracles such as “tears of blood on statues” etc.
Lets here of miracles that are from divine intervention through the intercession of Mary in particular.
I still havent seen any miracles that would stand up to scientific scrutiny?