Transubstantiation???

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I’m currently going through an RCIA program and we’ve recently done a session on the Eucharist. Going into this journey, I had read up on what transubstantiation is, and I’ve been trying to suppress the fact that I don’t totally believe that the bread and wine become the body and blood of Jesus. Ever since the session we did on it, I can’t stop thinking about it, and it’s starting to bother me. I firmly believe in consubstantiation but not transubstantiation.

My question is this: If I don’t fully believe in transubstantiation, should I be continuing in my journey to becoming Catholic? If I do continue, when it comes time to come into the church and take the Eucharist and I still don’t believe transubstantiation to be true, wouldn’t it be wrong for me to do so?
There would be nothing wrong with continuing with RCIA. But you should neither recieve the Eucharist or the other sacraments until you firmly believe in the reality and efficacy of each one, including the change of the bread and wine into the Body and Blood of Christ. Remember that this has always been the belief of the Church from the very beginning and is confirmed by Christ’s own words. The notion of Consubstantiation was a late innovation by Martin Luther and the Reformers and thus has no basis in either Scripture or in Tradition.

Perhaps your pastor can help you to understand it better. You can also raise your questions here if you wish. But it is definitely something you should pray about. Pray for the grace of total and universal Faith.

Linus2nd
 
Wow! Great answer. I’m teaching RCIA and on Wednesday, it’s about the Eucharist. I’m using this, as well as a great video by Fr. Robert Barron on the Eucharist.
People say all kinds of things about the Bible but they don’t pick it up and read it and so much of what they say just isn’t true. Others who don’t read the Bible repeat what is said and before lone everyone believes that transubstantiation isn’t in the Bible or that the Trinity isn’t in the Bible. .

And there are three who give testimony in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost. And these three are one. (1 John 5:7)

That’s the Trinity right there. That line is in both the Douay-Rheims and the KJV.

I wish people would read the Bible instead of listening to what other people who don’t read the Bible have to say about the Bible. :rolleyes:

Just venting. I hope your RCIA class enjoys 🙂

-Tim-
 
I’m currently going through an RCIA program and we’ve recently done a session on the Eucharist. Going into this journey, I had read up on what transubstantiation is, and I’ve been trying to suppress the fact that I don’t totally believe that the bread and wine become the body and blood of Jesus. Ever since the session we did on it, I can’t stop thinking about it, and it’s starting to bother me. I firmly believe in consubstantiation but not transubstantiation.

…
Struggling to understand is part of the journey; it means you are sincere. Many people just go through the motions to please a new spouse will little understanding or care as to what is going on. Don’t drop of RCIA just yet, but keep praying and reflecting the on issue. Don’t dwell on the it however.

Focus on the current materials, and see how you feel once you’ve gotten the whole picture. If after completing the RCIA course, you still have grave doubts, then you may chose to refrain or postpone completing the sacraments of initiation until to reach a firm conclusion about your faith.
 
The bread and wine changing into the Body and Blood of Christ is a true mystery - and a miracle that usually cannot be sensed with the temporal senses. Our physical bodies cannot tell the difference from bread and wine. However, our souls can tell the difference. Our minds cannot hope to wrap our minds around this mystery - it is above our ability to understand.
Hmmm. Shouldn’t it be the other way around?

Christ’s Body and Blood (as are His Soul and Divinity) are inseparable; at least that’s the way I was taught.
 
I have been a Roman Catholic since I was a child. Now I am 54. I have read about Eucharistic miracles before specially the one that happened in Lanciano, Italy but I have not had the opportunity to go there and see it.
Nevertheless, a few months ago, I was in Lebanon, a friend of mine invited me to go to a special church where he said that blood came out from the cup while an old priest was giving the mass.
I went there a couple of times. This church is always with people in constant prAyer.
According to one of the witnesses that first saw is Eucharistic miracle, this priest was a monk before in a town nearby. A statue of the VIrgen Mary holding baby Jesus started dripping oil. One of the visionaries said that the VIrgen was requesting a priest to start again giving masses again in that abandoned church. So this monk was assigned to serve that church. he had been in seclusion for 12 years. And every time during the Eucharist the cup starts dripping blood from around it. Of course, they do not let the blood of Christ to drop on the floor but the priest puts cotton around it. After the mass he blesses the cotton and each of the parishioners who wish to receive the cotton. He gives tiny pieces of this cotton in the.mouth of the parishioners and place a tiny piece of this cotton on a ziplock bag to them for their sick family members. Healings have occurred. Before, I have my doubts about such miracles, but now, I am a real believer that what is said at the mass is real, as real as I am telling you my personal account. I am glad that I was lucky to be present a couple of times during this special mass because I can say: I saw it and I can say also that what is written in the Bible is correct and that we are professing the right religion.
 
I’m currently going through an RCIA program and we’ve recently done a session on the Eucharist. Going into this journey, I had read up on what transubstantiation is, and I’ve been trying to suppress the fact that I don’t totally believe that the bread and wine become the body and blood of Jesus. Ever since the session we did on it, I can’t stop thinking about it, and it’s starting to bother me. I firmly believe in consubstantiation but not transubstantiation.

My question is this: If I don’t fully believe in transubstantiation, should I be continuing in my journey to becoming Catholic? If I do continue, when it comes time to come into the church and take the Eucharist and I still don’t believe transubstantiation to be true, wouldn’t it be wrong for me to do so?
Watch this clip very carefully, at the beginning of the Mass you will see the Miracle and the poor Cardinal is very shook after it happened

youtube.com/watch?v=JDp3nPQqL_o&feature=related
 
I’m currently going through an RCIA program and we’ve recently done a session on the Eucharist. Going into this journey, I had read up on what transubstantiation is, and I’ve been trying to suppress the fact that I don’t totally believe that the bread and wine become the body and blood of Jesus. Ever since the session we did on it, I can’t stop thinking about it, and it’s starting to bother me. I firmly believe in consubstantiation but not transubstantiation.

My question is this: If I don’t fully believe in transubstantiation, should I be continuing in my journey to becoming Catholic? If I do continue, when it comes time to come into the church and take the Eucharist and I still don’t believe transubstantiation to be true, wouldn’t it be wrong for me to do so?
leamar3 in Christ,

Why would consubstantiation be easier to believe than transubstantiation considering the constant teaching of the Church prior to the Reformation and the language used by Jesus at the Last Supper as well as what he said in the Discourse on the Bread of Life in John 6?

God bless.
 
Thank you so much for all of the thoughtful and encouraging responses. I will do some further reading and meditating. I pray that by the time Easter comes, that I’ve come to terms with this. Sometimes, I struggle with being Christian because I tend to rationalize everything, and this is just beyond my comprehension. I need to start looking at it like the mystery that it truly is. Thank you again.
 
leamar3 in Christ,

Why would consubstantiation be easier to believe than transubstantiation considering the constant teaching of the Church prior to the Reformation and the language used by Jesus at the Last Supper as well as what he said in the Discourse on the Bread of Life in John 6?

God bless.
Perhaps I don’t have a full understanding of consubstantiation either. I understand it to mean that Jesus is present in the bread and the wine. Now, whether this is in a physical sense or in a spiritual sense, I’m not certain. I guess I always thought this was somewhere between it just being a symbol and being completely transformed into his body and blood. I think my biggest thing is that I’m not comfortable thinking that the bread and wine ARE the body and blood of Jesus…because what if it’s not? (not to say anything against anyone. I really want to believe that it is). I went to adoration a couple of times and couldn’t help but thinking that I was praying to an inanimate object, but then I hate to think that too because I feel like I’m rejecting God. See where I’m torn?
 
Hmmm. Shouldn’t it be the other way around?

Christ’s Body and Blood (as are His Soul and Divinity) are inseparable; at least that’s the way I was taught.
They are inseperable. I was simply referencing the fact that (in most circumstances), the human senses cannot see, smell, or taste the difference between ordinary bread and wine and the Body and Blood of Jesus Christ. In fact, our digestive system treats it as if it were ordinary bread and wine. That’s actually what’s referenced in the ancient hymn Tantum Ergo. However, we know that the change actually occurs. It’s our soul that can tell the difference, and it is our soul that discerns the difference.

I remember hearing a story on EWTN many years ago about a priest who was sick, and thus delivered what was thought to be the Host. As soon as he took it, he knew that it had not been consecrated, and was, in fact, ordinary bread. It turned out that the priest who had said Mass earlier had accidentally forgotten the consecration part of the Eucharistic prayer, and as such, the species of bread and wine were never made into the Body and Blood of Jesus.
 
Perhaps I don’t have a full understanding of consubstantiation either. I understand it to mean that Jesus is present in the bread and the wine. Now, whether this is in a physical sense or in a spiritual sense, I’m not certain. I guess I always thought this was somewhere between it just being a symbol and being completely transformed into his body and blood. I think my biggest thing is that I’m not comfortable thinking that the bread and wine ARE the body and blood of Jesus…because what if it’s not? (not to say anything against anyone. I really want to believe that it is). I went to adoration a couple of times and couldn’t help but thinking that I was praying to an inanimate object, but then I hate to think that too because I feel like I’m rejecting God. See where I’m torn?
Yeah - it ravages the senses. This teaching of the Church (which was stated explicitly by Jesus, by the way - read John’s Gospel, Chapter 6) blows the mind. We can’t wrap our heads around it. How can ordinary bread and wine actually literally become Jesus? But, if God can become a human being, then He can become food if He chooses.

Honestly, though, it goes back to the OT. In the OT (and in pagan cultures, as well), unless a sacrifice was a holocaust, part of the sacrifice was eaten by the priest offering up the sacrifice and by his family. Jesus Christ Himself was both priest and victim in His sacrifice, which would have been considered a sin offering for all. When we are baptized, we are baptized into Jesus’s death. Jesus’s death was His sacrifice that purifies us all. In addition, though, we are acknowledged as priests, prophets, and kings, just as Jesus was a priest, a prophet, and a king. We are also made God’s adopted children.

Regardless, though, the entire community of believers is part of the common priesthood (the ordained priest actually simply leads the Eucharistic prayer on behalf of the community - he is a stand-in for the High Priest, Jesus - and it actually is Jesus Himself speaking through the ordained priest at the point of consecration). When the ordained priest recites the Eucharistic prayer, we actually travel through time and are there at the Last Supper, the foot of the Cross, and the empty tomb - all at the same time. But this time we are offering Jesus’s sacrifice with Jesus Himself. As Jesus’s sacrifice is Himself, and because as the common priesthood we are asked partake of His sacrifice (as long as we are “clean” - that is, free from stain of mortal sin), He had to provide a way for us to partake of His sacrifice. This is why He takes on the appearance of ordinary bread and wine - so that we can consume Him - the Lamb of God and eternal sacrifice.
 
Let us then in everything believe God, and gainsay Him in nothing, though what is said seem to be contrary to our thoughts and senses, but let His word be of higher authority than both reasonings and sight. Thus let us do in the mysteries also, not looking at the things set before us, but keeping in mind His sayings. For His word cannot deceive, but our senses are easily beguiled. That has never failed, but this in most things goes wrong. Since then the word says, This is my body, let us both be persuaded and believe, and look at it with the eyes of the mind.
-St. John Chrysostom, Homilies on Matthew 82.4

The words of Christ preclude any spiritualizing away of the Real Presence because He said, “This is my body.” Nor is consubstantiation reasonable because Christ did not say, “This is also my body,” or, “This contains my body,” or “Here is my body.” Read through the first chapter of Genesis 1 and you will see the power of God’s creative word. Just as he made the world and everything in it through his word, when Christ spoke the words “This is my body,” it could no longer remain bread, but became exactly what he said it was.
 
Perhaps I don’t have a full understanding of consubstantiation either. I understand it to mean that Jesus is present in the bread and the wine. Now, whether this is in a physical sense or in a spiritual sense, I’m not certain. I guess I always thought this was somewhere between it just being a symbol and being completely transformed into his body and blood. I think my biggest thing is that I’m not comfortable thinking that the bread and wine ARE the body and blood of Jesus…because what if it’s not? (not to say anything against anyone. I really want to believe that it is). I went to adoration a couple of times and couldn’t help but thinking that I was praying to an inanimate object, but then I hate to think that too because I feel like I’m rejecting God. See where I’m torn?
I think you hit on it there, it is a Mystery and we cannot explain Mysteries fully or understand them fully. The Church, in the Catechism, explains what happens, but she cannot explain how, no one can do that. But perhaps I can say a couple of things which help me.

First, Christ is not the bread and wine, He is in the appearances of bread and wine, because the substances of the bread and wine have been changed into the Substances of Christ’s body and blood. The appearances of bread and wine are mere accidents and accidents are not substances. For example, I am a substance and I am white. Whiteness is not me, it is a mere accident, but it exists in me. If I disappear leaving only whiteness, what is that? It is nothing. In philosophical terms, whiteness cannot exist without being in some substance, like me.

So when the Church says that Christ exists in the accidents it means Christ is where the accidents are, but in the sense that He is wherever His power is, not in the sense that He actually is the accident of bread or the accident of wine. He is where they are because His power is where they are. His Presence is often described as being behind the accidents. Or we could say He fills every thing and space or contains every thing and space where He is Present. And when the accidents are dissolved He is no longer there.

Now His presence if a real physical presence. But it is a glorified or spiritualized physicality, the kind of physicality than is compatible with His spirit. We cannot imagine that kind of physicality because we have had only one glimpse of it. After His Resurrection, Christ walked the earth for 40 days in His spiritualized physicality. During that time He demonstrated that His Glorified, physical body could appear at will wherever He willed, it could walk through solid matter like doors and walls, it could consume food and drink or not, He could and did Ascend into the Heavens. In other words, His Glorified Body and Blood was bound by no law of nature, it operated as though they did not even exist for Him.

And this is the Body and Blood we receive in Communion. And how is this possible in such a small bit of these accidents, even down to the crumb and the drop? Because His Glorified, physical Body is not bound by the laws of the natural universe. Doesn’t even science tell us that the entire universe originated in a mass as small as the head of a pen? Well then, why cannot Christ be really and truely be in a single crumb of the bread and a single drop of the wine? Doesn’t science tell us that the entire universe is basically nothing but energy. And what is that? Is it not something that is at least comparable to a spiritualized substance? At least it can give us an idea of what spiritualized physicality might be like.

And just think of it. Christ is really and truely present in every Church where a consecrated host is present. And even though you may live a mile or more away from that Church you can communicate by prayer with the real, physical Christ, as He appeared upon His Resurrection, all day long!

Linus2nd
 
…when Christ spoke the words “This is my body,”
But this is what feminists say too, isn’t it? 😉

The point is that in the English, “This” is very ambiguous. I can understand why Protestants (or anyone not knowing the Latin or Greek) see the priest holding the bread and think of “this” as bread.
 
But this is what feminists say too, isn’t it? 😉
Of course, they aren’t in the middle of consecrating anything when they say it. Indeed, they mean that no one, not even God, has the right to tell them if they will procreate or not. So, I don’t think the analogy holds up. 🙂 Especially when they mean that they have the right to kill what their bodies conceived through their own free will. No, not the same thing at all.
The point is that in the English, “This” is very ambiguous. I can understand why Protestants (or anyone not knowing the Latin or Greek) see the priest holding the bread and think of “this” as bread.
The better word of the consecration to focus on might be: “is” not “this.” Jesus said, “This IS my body” “this IS my blood.” Not “this could be thought of as my body if that’s spiritually helpful to you.” He was quite definite any time he mentioned his flesh and blood being offered as real food and real drink and as really being him.
 
The better word of the consecration to focus on might be: “is” not “this.” Jesus said, “This IS my body” “this IS my blood.” Not “this could be thought of as my body if that’s spiritually helpful to you.” He was quite definite any time he mentioned his flesh and blood being offered as real food and real drink and as really being him.
You (and not necessarily you, Della) are still trying to finagle with the English. You’ve reached an impasse. (This was discussed and argued at length in the 60’s, by the way. Too bad “for all” clouded the issue back then.) I can’t see the improvement in changing your focus but your point about what “this” is not IS valid.
 
“Blessed are those who believe and have not seen Me”.
There is something like that written in the Bible.
Faith is not about giving scientific explanations because not even scientists are so advanced to explain the mysteries given by Our Father. And that happens very often. Beyond any medical, technical fields to give an explanation about these Eucharistic miracles, miraculous cures, etc.
I was also present during one of the visiting trips of the Medjugorje’s visionaries, in Lebanon. What took me there? I don’t know. I had just found out about the VIrgen of MEdjugorje and there was an invitation to go and be present during one of the monthly apparitions that are given to one of the visionaries, her name is Marija.
I went there, not knowing what to expect from such event.
We pray the Rosary for a while, the visionary came, started praying it and suddenly she stop praying, everybody was silent,she was receiving the message. I continue praying, I felt the need to express my sorrows, to vent out my troubles, I felt (while praying) that somebody was listening to me. After the message was given to the visionary she translated it for us, saying that the VIrgen had been present with each one of us and have heard our petitions. To continue praying constantly.
I can only say that I felt that this time spent during such an event has been the best trip I have ever made in my whole life.
I believe at certain moment in our lives we receive that special call that attract us to Jesus.
Just feel so lucky to have been present at this magnificent events. I do personally pray a lot, I certainly believe and I want to get closer to God. Transformation I believe is the right word to describe my life. We must persevere in praying even during our difficult times when we wonder why things happen the way they are. By praying, God and the VIrgen will provide you with enough strength to bear any problem, any illness. We are meant to suffer during this passing life. As Jesus did, even though He did not have a sin, eve though He did not even deserve it. The love of God is so great that He even gave His only Son to suffer for the forgiveness of our sins. Let’s make it worthy the sacrifice that Jesus had, just for the love of us! Humanity.
 
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