Trashing Luther

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I should add that I think Luther was probably the best exponent of St. Paul that ever lived. He is spot on there…and that is saying a lot. I remember once when I was reading very late at night, falling asleep, waking up, etc. I thought for a second I was reading Paul, woke fully up and realized I had Luther’s book in my hand.

I also agree strongly with those who believe St. Paul and Jesus were on the same page…Scripture supports this fully. (If you have not heard this argument, consider yourself lucky - life is too short to bother with it)
 
steido01 said:
http://cdn.meme.am/instances/62331259.jpg
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My personal experience is that posters very often think I’m serious when I’m not, but very rarely think I’m joking when I’m not. I think the “42” conversation from last month is my new favorite :cool:, but I digress …

Anyhow, I tend to be bothered more by the trashing of Patriarch Photios than by the trashing of Dr. Luther, but maybe I’m showing my own bias. 😊
 
Adamski said:
What do you think of this video
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Woof. That’s hard to watch. Not just for the monotone, but the nutty semi-sedevacantist spin. I know some Roman Catholics will disagree, but ‘Lutheran’ doctrines existed long before the man was even born, even if they weren’t enunciated as clearly as the man would later make them. Pre-Trent Catholicism was exploding with diverse, yet decidedly Christian, theological opinions; this video anachronistically imposes today’s Roman Catholic thinking on yesterday’s Catholic Church. Of course, the author stays stuck in his imagined timezone and thinks Francis isn’t an actual Pope. Woof.

At least he gets some things right. The 99 Theses weren’t overtly outlining the Pauline/Augustine/Lutheran theology tree, nor even generally ‘Catholic;’ they were decidedly proto-Tridentine, and appealed to a presumably beneficent pope to correct the injustices and convoke a council. Would that Christendom had a Pope Francis or Benedict XVI back then…
 
POPE PRAISES LUTHER IN AN APPEAL FOR UNITY ON PROTEST ANNIVERSARY
Nov 5 1983
ROME, Nov. 5— Pope John Paul II, in a letter issued today, praised Martin Luther, the father of the Reformation who was excommunicated from the Roman Catholic Church, saying the world is still ‘‘experiencing his great impact on history.’’
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His comments were contained in a letter to the president of the Pontifical Secretariat for the Union of Christians, Johannes Cardinal Willebrands, to mark the anniversary of Martin Luther, whose 500th birthday will be celebrated next Thursday. The text of the letter was made public by the Vatican,
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In a related development, it was announced that Pope John Paul would preach on Dec. 11 in a Lutheran church here. The announcement was made by Christoph Meyer, the dean of the church, the Evangelical Lutheran Christoph Church, which has served the resident German community for 168 years. The service will be held in German, and the Pope will preach in the language of Martin Luther.
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The Pope referred to Luther as the theologian who ‘‘contributed in a substantial way to the radical change in the ecclesiastical and secular reality in the West.’’ He continued: ‘‘Our world still experiences his great impact on history.’’
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The Pope noted with satisfaction that the Protestant churches had declared the anniversary year to be an occasion that should serve ‘‘a genuine ecumenical spirit’’ and said that he saw this as a ‘‘fraternal invitation’’ to a joint reflection on the history and inheritance of Luther.
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Roman Catholic and Protestant studies have yielded a more balanced picture of Luther’s personality and the realities of the 16th century, the Pope continued, and shown that **’‘the rupture in ecclesiastical unity cannot be reduced to the lack of comprehension by Catholic Church authorities or solely to Luther’s lack of understanding of true Catholicism, even if both factors played a role.’’ **
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The Pope called for continued historical research, ‘‘that does not take sides, motivated only be the search for truth,’’ to provide ‘‘a true image’’ of Luther and the Reformation. ‘‘Guilt, wherever it exists, must be recognized, on whichever side it is found,’’ the Pope wrote. Continue Search for Unity
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‘‘It is time that we distance ourselves from historic events and assure that they are often better understood and evoked,’’ the Pope said. John Paul said Luther was a man of ‘‘profound religiousness’’ who was ‘‘driven by the examination of eternal salvation.’’ Papal Visit Arranged Last Year
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nytimes.com/1983/11/06/world/pope-praises-luther-in-an-appeal-for-unity-on-protest-anniversary.html

'Nuff said. I have no quibble with Saint John Paul II.
 
Starwarsfan2 said:
which is a ridiculous claim.
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Well, all you have to do is tweak the definitions of words, and you can claim anything.

In my own way, I agree with the statement. Every week I stand with a group of people that all say “We believe in one holy catholic and apostolic Church.” As such, we are a gathering of baptized belonging to that one Church.
 
ROME, MAY 5, 2005 (Zenit.org).- A leading Lutheran in Germany said in 1998 that Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger, now Benedict XVI, was one of the few who really understood Martin Luther.
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The Protestant leader’s statements were communicated to ZENIT by Sigrid Spath, a German Lutheran, who at times has been Cardinal Ratzinger’s interpreter and who, for more than 30 years, has worked in the general curia of the Society of Jesus and collaborates with the Holy See.
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Spath revealed details of the public meeting she witnessed between the then prefect of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, and Wolfgang Huber, former Lutheran Evangelical Bishop of Berlin and now president of the Council of the Evangelical Church in Germany.
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During the debate on the encyclical “Fides et Ratio,” which took place in Rome in October 1998, Cardinal Ratzinger revealed that before entering university he had already read all of Luther’s works written before the Reformation.
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“Ratzinger invited those present to read those writings again, as they express the great battle that Luther had with himself to live and accept the teachings of the just and good God,” she added. “‘Dear Protestant friends, rediscover the Luther of those years,’” recommended Cardinal Ratzinger at the time.
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“The debate lasted several hours,” she recalled. “Bishop Huber was impressed by the intervention of the prefect of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith and commented that Ratzinger is one of the few who really know Luther.”
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Cardinal Ratzinger’s knowledge of Luther made possible the historic signing of the Joint Declaration on the Doctrine of Justification, approved by the Catholic Church and the World Lutheran Federation.
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Some points of the proposal for the declaration presented in 1998 were rejected both by the Holy See as well as the federation.
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When it seemed that the project would fail, the difficulties were surmounted by Bishop Johannes Hanselmann, former president of the World Lutheran Federation, and Cardinal Ratzinger, thanks to their long-standing friendship, which made possible a private meeting between them in November 1998.
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After Dr. Hanselmann’s death on Oct. 2, 1999, Cardinal Ratzinger revealed in a public address: "We had a very important meeting in my brother’s house, in Germany, as it seemed that the consensus on the Doctrine of Justification had failed. In this way, in the course of a debate that lasted a whole day, we found the formulas that have clarified the points that still present difficulties. …
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“With the formula elaborated in those days, both by the Lutheran Federation as well as the Catholic magisterium, they have been able to acknowledge that a consensus has been reached on some fundamental points of the Doctrine of Justification. It is not a global agreement, but with this formula it is possible to proceed to the signing of a document of consensus in the basic contents.”
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vatican.va/roman_curia/pontifical_councils/chrstuni/documents/rc_pc_chrstuni_doc_31101999_cath-luth-joint-declaration_en.html
 
Starwarsfan2 said:
We do have the Eucharist , and hold to the real presence .
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Maybe you could help me understand when Jesus handed off apostolic succession to Luther??

Just because someone believes something doesn’t make it true
 
Who, but the devil, has granted such license of wresting the words of the holy Scripture? Who ever read in the Scriptures, that my body is the same as the sign of my body? or, that is is the same as it signifies? What language in the world ever spoke so? It is only then the devil, that imposes upon us by these fanatical men. Not one of the Fathers of the Church, though so numerous, ever spoke as the Sacramentarians: not one of them ever said, It is only bread and wine; or, the body and blood of Christ is not there present.
Code: 
Surely, it is not credible, nor possible, since they often speak, and repeat their sentiments, that they should never (if they thought so) not so much as once, say, or let slip these words: It is bread only; or the body of Christ is not there, especially it being of great importance, that men should not be deceived. Certainly, in so many Fathers, and in so many writings, the negative might at least be found in one of them, had they thought the body and blood of Christ were not really present: but they are all of them unanimous.”
It is enough for me that Christ’s blood is present; let it be with the wine as God wills. Before I would drink mere wine with the Enthusiasts, I would rather have pure blood with the Pope.

The glory of our God is precisely that for our sakes he comes down to the very depths, into human flesh, into the bread, into our mouth, our heart, our body.

Martin Luther
 
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