Travel to Cuba

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KostyaJMJ

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Assuming you’re a US citizen is it immoral to travel to Cuba?
 
Ponyguy said:
Why would it be immoral? :confused:

Because they have a communist government? The present Cuban government was forced upon their people, http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v313/ponyguy/pissed-o.gif they sure didn’t choose it…

Regards,
Ponyguy
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Immoral because american citizens are prohibited from making tourist trips to Cuba, so going would involve some sort of trickery.

travel.state.gov/travel/cis_pa_tw/cis/cis_1097.html

It would probably involve several things
  1. breaking the law prohibiting tourist travel to Cuba
  2. misuse of a passport to gain entry
  3. and finally since you can’t exactly put Cuba when you’re asked where you’ve been, lying on a USCIS form and to an immigration official to regain entry to the US.
I am wondering if this is an example of an unjust law and something that can be broken. Does the US government have the right to say where its citizens can and can not travel?
 
KostyaJMJ said:
Immoral because american citizens are prohibited from making tourist trips to Cuba, so going would involve some sort of trickery.

travel.state.gov/travel/cis_pa_tw/cis/cis_1097.html

It would probably involve several things
  1. breaking the law prohibiting tourist travel to Cuba
  2. misuse of a passport to gain entry
  3. and finally since you can’t exactly put Cuba when you’re asked where you’ve been, lying on a USCIS form and to an immigration official to regain entry to the US.
I am wondering if this is an example of an unjust law and something that can be broken. Does the US government have the right to say where its citizens can and can not travel?
Click to expand...
There aren’t any flights that go to Cuba from the US. One has to another country, then go to Cuba. When one reenters the US, normally Customs agents assume you’ve been to the country your flying back from.

I actually could go to Cuba, because I have Italian Citizenship as well. But, I have no desire to do so.

But I don’t think it’s a complete ban for US citizens to go. One could go for humanitarian reasons or for journalistic reasons. (I think, please, anyone correct me if I’m wrong)
 
KostyaJMJ said:
Assuming you’re a US citizen is it immoral to travel to Cuba?
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I would say no. The ban itself is not based off of a moral issue (it’s economics at it’s base level). But, if you did get “caught” (I don’t even know, is there a “penalty” for breaking the embargo?), then you must be willing to accept the penalty.
 
I say yes, it’s a sin. But about at the level of speeding.

Christian teaching has always granted that the state has authority to pass reasonable laws and that citizens are bound to obey them. This doesn’t mean you can simply blow off any law you feel is less than reasonable, it means you can only disobey it if your conscience is utterly convinced that the law itself is an injustice.

The economic embargo against Cuba is debatably valid on secular political grounds (the more you know about Castro, the more horrifed you get). But there is no injustice issue involved in forcing you to choose elsewhere for your vacation. And don’t even try rationalizing that your beach adventure is meant to be a humanitarian gesture!😛
 
manualman said:
I say yes, it’s a sin. But about at the level of speeding.

Christian teaching has always granted that the state has authority to pass reasonable laws and that citizens are bound to obey them. This doesn’t mean you can simply blow off any law you feel is less than reasonable, it means you can only disobey it if your conscience is utterly convinced that the law itself is an injustice.

The economic embargo against Cuba is debatably valid on secular political grounds (the more you know about Castro, the more horrifed you get). But there is no injustice issue involved in forcing you to choose elsewhere for your vacation. And don’t even try rationalizing that your beach adventure is meant to be a humanitarian gesture!😛
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Without getting too deeply into politics, I think it is reasonable to assume that the embargo has proven unable to achieve what it was intended to achieve, and instead seems to have stabilized the dictatorship rather than the opposite.

From the optics north of the border, it appears entirely reasonable to assume that the embargo, rather than fulfilling the aim of bringing the Cuban government to its knees, rather serves to allow a very vocal and significant Florida voter base to extract revenge from the dictator of their former country. The true losers appear to be the people of Cuba who are kept impoverished and dependent on the dictatorship.

Not to excuse Castro’s excesses of course. But I think one’s conscience can reasonably assume that the embargo is in fact unjust and harmful to the people of Cuba as it instead helps the revolutionary government stay in power. And thus if your conscience says it is an unjust law that goes against humanitarian principles, it is not sinful to disobey it.
 
OraLabora said:
Not to excuse Castro’s excesses of course. But I think one’s conscience can reasonably assume that the embargo is in fact unjust and harmful to the people of Cuba as it instead helps the revolutionary government stay in power. And thus if your conscience says it is an unjust law that goes against humanitarian principles, it is not sinful to disobey it.
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I think it is safe to say that the embargo is unjust and goes against humanitarian principles. What actually bothers me is having to lie to the immigration official when I return.

Suppose you decide to break an unjust law, do you then have to submit to whatever punishment is coming to you? Suppose I take a case of Cuban cigars and place them in my luggage. Do I then have to answer the USCI form truthfully and report myself? Is that a lie or is it the same as taking the fifth or pleading not guilty?
 
Why negate any trips t Cuba when there are many communist counties in the world that people are able to travel without any problem (on the Us’s point fo vire anyway)? What’s the difference? Many people go to china, Why the pick and choose? What about Saudi Arabia? Or any other country being led by a tyrant?

To me the embargo is hypocritical…Treat all countries that are not created into our image as the same…🤷
 
KostyaJMJ said:
Assuming you’re a US citizen is it immoral to travel to Cuba?
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The following ARE allowed to travel to Cuba:

Persons visiting a close relative (any individual related to a person by blood, marriage, or adoption who is no more than three generations removed from that person or from a common ancestor with that person) who is a national of Cuba, and persons traveling with them who share a common dwelling as a family with them. There is no limit on the duration or frequency of such travel. (According to the Cuban Assets Control Regulations, third country nationals who reside in Cuba are considered Cuban nationals.)

Journalists and supporting broadcasting or technical personnel (regularly employed in that capacity by a news reporting organization and traveling for journalistic activities).

Official government travelers on official business.

Members of international organizations of which the United States is also a member (traveling on official business).

Full-time professionals, whose travel transactions are directly related to research in their professional areas, provided that their research: 1) is of a noncommercial, academic nature; 2) comprises a full work schedule in Cuba; and 3) has a substantial likelihood of public dissemination.

Full-time professionals whose travel transactions are directly related to attendance at professional meetings or conferences in Cuba that are organized by an international professional organization, institution, or association that regularly sponsors such meetings or conferences in other countries. An organization, institution, or association headquartered in the United States may not sponsor such a meeting or conference unless it has been specifically licensed to sponsor it. The purpose of the meeting or conference cannot be the promotion of tourism in Cuba or other commercial activities involving Cuba, or to foster production of any bio-technological products.

Employees of a U.S. telecommunications services provider or an entity duly appointed to represent such a provider traveling incident to: 1) the commercial marketing, sales negotiation, accompanied delivery, or servicing of authorized telecommunications-related items; or 2) participation in telecommunications-related professional meetings for the commercial marketing of, sales negotiation for, or performance under contracts for the provision of telecommunications services, or the establishment of facilities to provide telecommunications services.

Individuals regularly employed by a producer or distributer of agricultural commodities, medicine, or medical devices or an entity duly appointed to represent such a producer or distributer traveling incident to the commercial marketing, sales negotiation, accompanied deliver, or servicing in Cuba of such items.
 
KostyaJMJ said:
Immoral because american citizens are prohibited from making tourist trips to Cuba, so going would involve some sort of trickery.

travel.state.gov/travel/cis_pa_tw/cis/cis_1097.html

It would probably involve several things
  1. breaking the law prohibiting tourist travel to Cuba
  2. misuse of a passport to gain entry
  3. and finally since you can’t exactly put Cuba when you’re asked where you’ve been, lying on a USCIS form and to an immigration official to regain entry to the US.
I am wondering if this is an example of an unjust law and something that can be broken. Does the US government have the right to say where its citizens can and can not travel?
Click to expand...
You are making the presumption that the issue of the US law is a moral issue. Rahter than making the presumption, you might actually try to show that it is. If it is not, then going there may land you in hot water with the government of the US (or for that matter, with the folks in Cuba - see, e.g. the three hikers who hiked in or near the border of Iran); but that does not equate with an automatic finding that the US law is an issue of moral value.
 
Mary_Gail_36 said:
There aren’t any flights that go to Cuba from the US. One has to another country, then go to Cuba.
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Not entirely true. There is a single charter flight operated by Continental Airlines with the permission of the US government every day from Miami. This flight is reserved ONLY for relatives, journalists, and humanitarians, but it IS possible to legally go to Cuba from the US via this flight if you get permission from the US Treasury Department.

Interestingly, as a side note (since I’ve tried to travel to Cuba because I’m a Latin American historian), if you get permission to travel, it’s done by a personal exemption to the embargo. Citizens returning can legally bring back a box of Cuban cigars and a case of Cuban rum for their own personal use (although it would STILL be illegal to sell them). They may be legally given as free gifts.
 
As a Canadian I’ve been to Cuba-we have no travel restrictions and many Canadians travel there .Right now it is cheap.the food generally is lousy unless you go to a private restaurant,usually someone’s house.
You will be approached on the beach everywhere for this purpose.It is delicious and cheap.Huge lobsters and smoky homemade beer.The peopl;e speak quite freely about conditions there and are openly critical of their government-some are vehement communistas but all are quite pleasant to interact with.After 40 some years the embargo is really moot as Canadian companies and european ones deal with Cuba all the time.t
The only prople who are suffering because of the embargo are the poor.When we go we bring soap,bandaides,medecines and clothing which are gratefully accepted.Pedophile sex tourists from europe are a problem and we almost lynched one at our resort(metaphorically of course)Cuba is one giant farm.They even grow corn in the ditches beneath telephone lines.
The people are poor beyond belief.Lifting a non-functioning embargo will bring about gradual democratic change.When you have people living under a seige mentality their resistance stiffens-one only has to look at Germany and Japan.It seems to be kept in place to satisfy the Cuban Exiles in Miami.
We even sell the best Cuban Cigars in Canada.

P.S.Cuban commercial beer is HORRIBLE.it tastes like it was brewed tomorrow.
 
Mary_Gail_36 said:
But I don’t think it’s a complete ban for US citizens to go. One could go for humanitarian reasons or for journalistic reasons. (I think, please, anyone correct me if I’m wrong)
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According to the US State Department, citizens of the US may not travel to Cuba for leisure. However, a license to travel there can be granted for the following reasons:
  1. Visit a close relative
  2. Journalism (or technical personnel providing support)
  3. Government business
  4. Academic researchers who will be working fulltime while in Cuba, and who will be publishing their findings
  5. Telecommunications personnel
  6. Sales people for agricultural or medical products
There are a bunch of special licenses too, e.g. students, athletes, religious personnel, humanitarian projects
travel.state.gov/travel/cis_pa_tw/cis/cis_1097.html
 
Dale_M said:
According to the US State Department, citizens of the US may not travel to Cuba for leisure. However, a license to travel there can be granted for the following reasons:
  1. Visit a close relative
  2. Journalism (or technical personnel providing support)
  3. Government business
  4. Academic researchers who will be working fulltime while in Cuba, and who will be publishing their findings
  5. Telecommunications personnel
  6. Sales people for agricultural or medical products
There are a bunch of special licenses too, e.g. students, athletes, religious personnel, humanitarian projects
travel.state.gov/travel/cis_pa_tw/cis/cis_1097.html
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I don’t fall under any of those categories, so I would only be going for tourism. I would fly to Cuba direct from Canada and then return to Canada. I would just have the Cuban officials not stamp my passport page so that I can throw away the visa page before I enter into the US again in a couple of months time. The odds of a official asking if I’ve been to Cuba are slim to none, but I still don’t want to lie on the immigration form when it asks which countries I’ve visited prior to entering the US.
 
Telling a lie is not the same as not telling everything.

Customs: “where have you been?”
You: “Canada, (insert town where connection was made)”
Customs: “how long was your stay?”
You: “Two weeks”.
Customs: “anything to declare?”.
You: be honest here, and refrain from bringing back Cuban cigars or rhum. Instead get something at the Duty Free, and properly declare it 🙂

You didn’t lie.

You just refrained from revealing everything.
 
What would they do to you anyway if they found out.I can’t see a free country forbidding it’s citizens’ to travel anywhere.Communists USED to do that.Trade restrictions,OK but obviously totally ineffectual when the rest of the world trades with Cuba daily.
What would Big Brother do?Throw you in jail?Put you on a secret policeman’s watch list?
 
KostyaJMJ said:
I don’t fall under any of those categories, so I would only be going for tourism. I would fly to Cuba direct from Canada and then return to Canada. I would just have the Cuban officials not stamp my passport page so that I can throw away the visa page before I enter into the US again in a couple of months time. The odds of a official asking if I’ve been to Cuba are slim to none, but I still don’t want to lie on the immigration form when it asks which countries I’ve visited prior to entering the US.
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Given the level of security nowadays, I don’t know that taking a page out of a visa would be the brightest thing one could choose to do. Those folks look at how many visas a day? And you plan on doing something that they may be looking for?

How many countries are there that one could visit without raising suspicion? I think you need to make some serious inquiries into your desire to go there, and the possible consequences of getting sideways with the law upon coming back, and then decide whether or not you really need to go there. That has nothing to do with whether I think the US law is right, wrong or indifferent; but if it is the law, you might want to do a bit more research on possible consequences, see what attorneys cost, and decide if you want to risk the possiblity of goverment food, clothing and housing over the value of going to Cuba. Your call; I have no idea what is motivatiing you.

You might get through with nary a raised eyebrow.

Or, you might get to find out just how much power the Federal Goverment holds over you.

Hey, the Feds could always use a new poster child.
 
otjm said:
Given the level of security nowadays, I don’t know that taking a page out of a visa would be the brightest thing one could choose to do. Those folks look at how many visas a day? And you plan on doing something that they may be looking for?
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No, the idea is to get a stamp on a separate page that can be trashed before re-entering the country. This is done as a matter of course in places such as Israel. You don’t want to try entering other countries while your passport has an Israel stamp in it. Israeli authorities will happily stamp a separate piece of paper with your visa for your plausible deniability later on.
 
here is a more complicated way to do it

if your state has an enhanced drivers license, get one. travel to Canada by car, use the EDL. then board a plane to Cuba. on the way back, go through the land border again, use the EDL, they don’t see your passport
 
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