Treatment of Eastern Catholics in North America

[ConstantineTG]

First, let me start off by saying that I’m not starting this thread to say bad things about the Roman Catholic Church or the Orthodox Churches. I just want to put to light the sad and painful truth that Eastern Catholics face in the diaspora where we are the minority.

Anyway, my story is that I have been Roman Catholic for almost all my life until that fateful Sunday in October last year. And I never really looked back since. I’m working on my canonical transfer, but I think from where I stand is pretty much official. I mean, listen to my story:

So before I became Eastern Catholic, my interest in the faith was growing. I felt I had a call to be a catechist because I feel bad for myself for being poorly catechized for so long, and if circumstances were any different I would have never fully returned to the faith. I would have continues on as a liberally minded Catholic as I was in the last half of my life. So I did become a catechist for one year teaching highschool kids. Last year there were no highschool enrollees so I didn’t have a class. And that is the time I transitioned into becoming an Eastern Catholic, as I was drawn immediately by the Divine Liturgy.

Now this year the catechism coordinator called me and asked if I was interested to teach. So I said yes. Again I feel this is my calling and I would love to teach kids the faith. I’m very much in touch with RC teachings being less than a year removed. And of course I get a lot of practice here in CAF. But I haven’t attended that parish since November and I know the priest was ranting before that his catechists were volunteers from other parishes. I understand that he wants active participation from his own parish. So I came clean, so to speak, with the coordinator. Of course I told the coordinator that I am attending a Ukrainian Catholic parish exclusively. I said I am 100% committed to teach, and I will attend Mass if called for. I said my aim is to faithfully teach the Roman Catholic faith and I will not confuse children about East and West. It is already extra effort for me to get out of my busy schedule to teach, so I do not intend to waste anyone’s time, including my own.

I was expecting that I will lose the teaching job because of my parish membership. It would have been fine because of that. Unfortunately I was told that because I was “non-practicing” and because I attended a Church other than the Roman Catholic Church, I cannot teach. I was offended that it was even an issue. I did take my time to explain to the coordinator that I am still Catholic and the Church I go to is Catholic. So I replied that I do not know how the Rite of the Church I go to affects my ability to teach. I don’t know why that is part of the issue. So I wrote to the person in charge of the whole catechism program of the Archdiocese whom I know. And I got the same reply. The person in charge said that teaching First Communion is “not teaching a subject about Communion, but teaching a way of life, including the Roman Rite.” I’m like, “what?” So I replied, “Do you know what the difference is between the sacramental life of a Roman Catholic from a Ukrainian Catholic?” So Communion is a way of life in the Roman Rite, and not in the Byzantine Rite? And this is a person that I have invited, came, and communed with us at Divine Liturgy. And again the email contained things like I have forgotten how it is to be Roman Catholic in 11 months. I guess the incense gives you Latin Rite amnesia. There’s a lot more, let say mind-blowing claims made that makes absolutely no sense. But I won’t elaborate as I’m trying to keep a level of anonymity here.

Is it really this bad for Eastern Catholics here? Is this pretty much the norm? Is this like those merger of gym companies where two brands of gyms merge, but one is a higher end gym and the other is an everyday average gym where the members of the everyday average gym cannot go to the higher end gym, but the high end gym members get to go to the average gym?

 

[choliks]

That’s sad, man. I think they need a little bit more catechism. It’s heartbreaking to see a different rite of equal dignity belittled.

I’m sorry you were treated that way, kabayan.

 

[rben20]

How sad Constantine Ignorance is quite the power these days. In my experience people don’t even know there are Eastern Catholics. I really can’t say much else.

 

[Aelred_Minor]

They must be afraid that you will teach the kids Eastern theology, even if you say you won’t.

Question: Would you support a Latin Rite Catholic who is very personally committed to Western theology and spirituality but well educated and well acquainted with Eastern Catholicism catechizing kids in the Ukrainian Catholic Church? Or to look at it from another perspective, would you take offence if Ukrainian Catholic leaders decided their students would only be catechized by practicing Eastern Catholics?

 

[Vico]

…

I am sorry you were rejected for catechist, I am sure you are technically qualified.

You are canonically a Latin Catholic and your proper parish is obligated to provide for you sacramentally, and in spiritual activities. A teaching role is another matter, since the bishop and pastor do set limits. You gave the reason “…I know the priest was ranting before that his catechists were volunteers from other parishes”, so it is a desired by the pastor to limit the teaching to members of their parish that are regulars. Since you already were a catechist there it must be a particularly painful rejection.

There is some canonical basis to participation in ones church of enrollment. Since clergy are bi-ritual it seems a parallel could be drawn for catechists, but I think the deacon is a closer fit in concept. There are bi-ritual deacons, see the link below. You may be able to have a convincing argument based upon this fact, applied to catechist.

aodonline.org/AODOnline/News+++Publications+2203/Michigan+Catholic+News+12203/2010+17545/100430_DeaconJubilee.htm

 

[Pambo]

I read somewhere that if you meet with trials and opposition, it’s a pretty good sign that you’re on the right path, so take heart!

As for the people you’re dealing with, it seems to me they desperately need to read the documents of Vatican II regarding the Eastern Churches as well as some of the Encyclicals of Blessed Pope John Paul II like Orientale Lumen. If they came to know what’s in those documents, I bet they’d be mighty embarrassed! :dts:

 

[Seamus_L]

Looking at the issue from the other side of the fence, I have to ask, how many times on various Eastern Christian online forums have posters expressed fear and concern over bi-ritual priests serving Eastern Catholic parishes. A priest takes time out of his busy schedule to say liturgy for a group of Eastern Catholics who are priestless, and some people begin muttering “but he’s still Latin Rite” as if he might contaminate the parish.

 

[ConstantineTG]

Looking at the issue from the other side of the fence, I have to ask, how many times on various Eastern Christian online forums have posters expressed fear and concern over bi-ritual priests serving Eastern Catholic parishes. A priest takes time out of his busy schedule to say liturgy for a group of Eastern Catholics who are priestless, and some people begin muttering “but he’s still Latin Rite” as if he might contaminate the parish.

But truth of the matter is that many Roman Catholics act the same way, maybe even harsher. At least Eastern Catholics recognize Roman Catholics to be Catholic. A lot of Roman Catholics I have come across don’t even think Eastern Catholics are part of the Catholics Church. Perhaps one of those made-up groups who took the name “Catholic”.

They must be afraid that you will teach the kids Eastern theology, even if you say you won’t.

Question: Would you support a Latin Rite Catholic who is very personally committed to Western theology and spirituality but well educated and well acquainted with Eastern Catholicism catechizing kids in the Ukrainian Catholic Church? Or to look at it from another perspective, would you take offence if Ukrainian Catholic leaders decided their students would only be catechized by practicing Eastern Catholics?

If that person can teach and has proven that can teach Eastern theology, then why not? Thing is, I wasn’t a stranger who just walked into the parish and volunteered myself. I was part of that parish for a year and a half and was an active catechist. I’m not some random Eastern Catholic they called up from the street.

I am sorry you were rejected for catechist, I am sure you are technically qualified.

You are canonically a Latin Catholic and your proper parish is obligated to provide for you sacramentally, and in spiritual activities. A teaching role is another matter, since the bishop and pastor do set limits. You gave the reason “…I know the priest was ranting before that his catechists were volunteers from other parishes”, so it is a desired by the pastor to limit the teaching to members of their parish that are regulars. Since you already were a catechist there it must be a particularly painful rejection.

There is some canonical basis to participation in ones church of enrollment. Since clergy are bi-ritual it seems a parallel could be drawn for catechists, but I think the deacon is a closer fit in concept. There are bi-ritual deacons, see the link below. You may be able to have a convincing argument based upon this fact, applied to catechist.

aodonline.org/AODOnline/News+++Publications+2203/Michigan+Catholic+News+12203/2010+17545/100430_DeaconJubilee.htm

I’m sorry Vico, I know how much a stickler you are for canon law. But when you are shunned by Roman Catholics, that pretty much says you are not one of them. Canon law at this point is just a piece of paper which has not effect on one’s soul or salvation.

 

[Hesychios]

Is it really this bad for Eastern Catholics here? Is this pretty much the norm? …

At least they were not yelling at you.

 

[Angel_Gabriel]

Sorry you are going through this Constantine . And I can totally understand your frustration! (alot of my family don’t get it either…)

I’m also experiencing it to a lesser degree. Our Mission finally has a priest but he is only willing to have Divine Liturgy once a month right now. The prime reason is b/c he doesn’t want the Roman diocese to think we are trying to proselytize it’s members. I can understand somewhat as currently we are using the Cathedral Chapel to celebrate Divine Liturgy…however we are stuck with the time since for some reason we can’t be having DL while the Mass is going on??? either way I’m upset by it and it’s compounded by the fact that my husband and I have to (yes HAVE to) enroll our son in Religious Education which just happens to be during the time that we are having DL! So I hope that Fr. will see that there is a great interest in this and at least celebrate DL twice a month.

I feel so spiritually fulfilled in the East! I honestly don’t see why the Roman church would put up such a fuss over members “leaving” their Masses to attend DL…if people are growing closer to God via Eastern tradition and theology then that should be cause for rejoicing! I’m certain it has to do with losing members = losing money…

 

[Formosus]

I’ll remember your situation in my prayers. Perhaps God is “shutting” this door because he has opened another even better door somewhere else for you.

 

[puzzleannie]

I am sorry you had a bad experience, but I think condemning all CAtholics in North America is a little extreme when we are speaking of one or two persons in one or two parishes who displayed some ignorance about Eastern Rite Catholics. In a town with a larger presence, such as Cleveland, your experience may have been better.

 

[ConstantineTG]

I am sorry you had a bad experience, but I think condemning all CAtholics in North America is a little extreme when we are speaking of one or two persons in one or two parishes who displayed some ignorance about Eastern Rite Catholics. In a town with a larger presence, such as Cleveland, your experience may have been better.

Sorry, I am not condemning Catholics of North America. I’m asking if people around North America have the same experience. Because through the course of this issue I am having I have spoken with Eastern Catholics from around North America (north and south of the 49th) if they have gotten into issue. And I must say I am a bit dismayed about what they have gone through. Some are even clergy.

Sorry you are going through this Constantine . And I can totally understand your frustration! (alot of my family don’t get it either…)

I’m also experiencing it to a lesser degree. Our Mission finally has a priest but he is only willing to have Divine Liturgy once a month right now. The prime reason is b/c he doesn’t want the Roman diocese to think we are trying to proselytize it’s members. I can understand somewhat as currently we are using the Cathedral Chapel to celebrate Divine Liturgy…however we are stuck with the time since for some reason we can’t be having DL while the Mass is going on??? either way I’m upset by it and it’s compounded by the fact that my husband and I have to (yes HAVE to) enroll our son in Religious Education which just happens to be during the time that we are having DL! So I hope that Fr. will see that there is a great interest in this and at least celebrate DL twice a month.

I feel so spiritually fulfilled in the East! I honestly don’t see why the Roman church would put up such a fuss over members “leaving” their Masses to attend DL…if people are growing closer to God via Eastern tradition and theology then that should be cause for rejoicing! I’m certain it has to do with losing members = losing money…

We have a fantastic RC bishop. He has two Eastern Catholic mission parishes under his care, one is Melkite and the other is Chaldean. He also supports the Latin traditional movement and has supported the local FSSP parish and even has one diocesan priest who says the TLM weekly. The Cathedral is one of the most reverent RC Masses I have ever been to, and he lets people receive any which way in the Cathedral with the altar rails and he lets people receive standing in the middle aisle. But no matter how wonderful the bishop is, its not a given that those under him will have his wisdom and charity.

At least they were not yelling at you.

Given my emotional and high strung nature, I don’t think someone can out yell me especially if I know I did nothing wrong. I will admit that I have reacted very uncharitably with the situation and perhaps its my greatest fault in this matter. I didn’t really turn the other cheek when the other one got slapped hard.

 

[Cristiano]

I think that I would be more concerned if you were to tech Eastern Catholics because I do not think that eleven months are not enough to grasp the Eastern Theology so much that it could be taught to others. However, I think that it is sheer stupidity, ignorance and bigotry to tell you that you are not considered capable of teaching children of the Latin Church. I teach pre-confirmation classes in the Latin Church and I attend both Maronite and Byzantine liturgies. Last year a mother freaked out when I mentioned that I planned to spend a day talking about the “other” Catholic Churches, she thought that I was turn her children in a bunch of schismatics.

 

[ConstantineTG]

I think that I would be more concerned if you were to tech Eastern Catholics because I do not think that eleven months are not enough to grasp the Eastern Theology so much that it could be taught to others. However, I think that it is sheer stupidity, ignorance and bigotry to tell you that you are not considered capable of teaching children of the Latin Church. I teach pre-confirmation classes in the Latin Church and I attend both Maronite and Byzantine liturgies. Last year a mother freaked out when I mentioned that I planned to spend a day talking about the “other” Catholic Churches, she thought that I was turn her children in a bunch of schismatics.

I don’t know how much advancement in theology I really need. I am teaching kids, not seminarians. In fact, I know someone who has a doctorate in theology and teaches a wide variety of Christians, even Protestants. At some point someone needs to make a living, but that person is Eastern Catholic. Also the dearth of Eastern Catholics schools in my part of the world means those who have studied Eastern Catholic theology deeply will be forced to teach Western theology just to make a living (or more to where there are Eastern Christian schools).

I can tell you this, most catechists I’ve met read things off a book and teach what’s there. I can guarantee I’m a step above that at least. During the catechist’s dinner, a great majority of the catechists don’t even know what the coming Mass changes are for, and why. I mean, bless their heart for the effort they give into this. But we need to expand our knowledge beyond the textbook and be aware of the issues so we can address the needs of the next generation of our Church.

 

[Cristiano]

I don’t know how much advancement in theology I really need. I am teaching kids, not seminarians. In fact, I know someone who has a doctorate in theology and teaches a wide variety of Christians, even Protestants. At some point someone needs to make a living, but that person is Eastern Catholic. Also the dearth of Eastern Catholics schools in my part of the world means those who have studied Eastern Catholic theology deeply will be forced to teach Western theology just to make a living (or more to where there are Eastern Christian schools).

I can tell you this, most catechists I’ve met read things off a book and teach what’s there. I can guarantee I’m a step above that at least. During the catechist’s dinner, a great majority of the catechists don’t even know what the coming Mass changes are for, and why. I mean, bless their heart for the effort they give into this. But we need to expand our knowledge beyond the textbook and be aware of the issues so we can address the needs of the next generation of our Church.

I am not challenging your capabilities at all. I am simply saying that given your background I think that for now it would be easier for you to teach with references to the Latin Catholicism then with references to the Eastern Catholicism but I might be wrong.

I think that the point that you make about teachers just reading from the books is quite true and scary. That is mainly due to the fact that in a lot of parishes, including mine, volunteers have been told over and over that they do not need experience and they have to rely on the Holy Spirit. Think that reliance on the Holy Spirit starts with educating ourselves first and not just reading from a book and only a book.

I think that you should keep pursuing our activity as a catechist in either a Latin parish or in an ECC parish. Do not give up.

 

[5Loaves]

Christ is in our midst!

I’m very sorry to hear of your experience, ConstantineTG. I don’t know how many of us ECs are catechists in a Latin parish, but I remain one. Yesterday was Catechetical Sunday and thankfully it was celebrated in the Sat. 5PM Mass so I was able to be present. As it turned out the DRE and myself were the only catechists present representing the adult formation Inquiry and RCIA. Those working as catechists with children were well represented. We were called up at the start of the Mass and recognized for our service and prayed over.

I’m the only catechist, other than the DRE, for our year round Inquiry, and she and I were alone with the year round RCIA until about two years ago when a few others have joined the team. I’m leading the session in a couple of weeks and over the years have many times been alone leading Inquiry.

The fact I’m Eastern Catholic probably comes up in the somewhat different language I use when I approach something. But I do not present the difference when it comes to things like, for instance, original sin and the immaculate conception where Eastern Catholic have a different understanding of these from the Latin Church. I’m not there to confuse them. I do I think sometimes offer a more expanded way of seeing the sacramental liturgical life of Catholics. It’s apparent also the difference when I’m absent as I was last Tu., Exaltation of the Holy Cross, due to feastdays we celebrate as great feasts which are nearly ignored in the Latin Church. Also, they know about our fasting schedule – I always bring vegan options when we have something during the many fast periods.

Perhaps a significant difference in your situation and mine is that I am still very active in the Latin Church. I go to daily morning Mass 2 or 3 times a week, depending on my work schedule, in the parish where I am a catechist, and another day or two at the Dominican Priory, or another parish near by. I take part in the annual parish fund-raiser dinner and the annual festival to raise funds for the elementary school. I’ve been a volunteer for activities at the Cathedral Christ the Light since it was dedicated. I almost never fulfill my “Sunday obligation” in a Roman Rite Mass-- I’m always at my EC parish or another EC parish.

Two of the catechists with our RCIA have gone with me to Vespers at the Russian Orthodox parish I go to for those so they have been exposed to our version of the Hours. And our DRE has gone to the Divine Liturgy celebrated the past two years at the LA Congress. None of them has an interest in becoming a frequent flier at the DL but they did really love the services and have now a good understanding of my liturgical life as an EC.

We also have 2 seminarians assigned to our RCIA each year from fall until Pascha/Easter and when they discover I’m an EC they always want to know more about it.

I think I personally might feel awkward as a catechist there if I no longer ever worshiped with the Latin Church. Even though it can at times be odd when we are on such different calendars, I still have strong ties to parishioners in my “home” parish (which incidentally wouldn’t be my home canonically since I don’t reside within the boundaries of this church). The Latin Archbishop whom we as Russians are under, and the Latin parish near our EC church have been wonderful supports for our tiny EC parish so I also feel a close connection to the Latin Church in that way as well.

 

[ConstantineTG]

I am not challenging your capabilities at all. I am simply saying that given your background I think that for now it would be easier for you to teach with references to the Latin Catholicism then with references to the Eastern Catholicism but I might be wrong.

I think that the point that you make about teachers just reading from the books is quite true and scary. That is mainly due to the fact that in a lot of parishes, including mine, volunteers have been told over and over that they do not need experience and they have to rely on the Holy Spirit. Think that reliance on the Holy Spirit starts with educating ourselves first and not just reading from a book and only a book.

I think that you should keep pursuing our activity as a catechist in either a Latin parish or in an ECC parish. Do not give up.

My apologies, I didn’t mean for you to think I was thinking that you were questioning my capabilities. I’m just saying that since we are teaching kids, one doesn’t require much in terms of deep theological knowledge. I shudder to think if I am the only source of catechesis for those kids. But you know what, that is another problem we face today. Even parents do not follow up on what is taught in parish catechesis. They go to Mass and they go to catechesis. Thats is. Sad

Christ is in our midst!

I’m very sorry to hear of your experience, ConstantineTG. I don’t know how many of us ECs are catechists in a Latin parish, but I remain one. Yesterday was Catechetical Sunday and thankfully it was celebrated in the Sat. 5PM Mass so I was able to be present. As it turned out the DRE and myself were the only catechists present representing the adult formation Inquiry and RCIA. Those working as catechists with children were well represented. We were called up at the start of the Mass and recognized for our service and prayed over.

–snip–

I think I personally might feel awkward as a catechist there if I no longer ever worshiped with the Latin Church. Even though it can at times be odd when we are on such different calendars, I still have strong ties to parishioners in my “home” parish (which incidentally wouldn’t be my home canonically since I don’t reside within the boundaries of this church). The Latin Archbishop whom we as Russians are under, and the Latin parish near our EC church have been wonderful supports for our tiny EC parish so I also feel a close connection to the Latin Church in that way as well.

I guess thats the difference with me. I still go to the OF but in the Cathedral downtown which is close to where I work for Feast Days I cannot attend the Divine Liturgy (I would still attend Vespers if there is one). Even though the parish in question is literally a stone’s throw away from where I live, I haven’t been there in at least 6 months.

I don’t want to pursue teaching in a Latin parish anymore. I think my recent experience has proven there’s a good amount of ignorance about the Eastern Rites. I’ll see what I can do in correcting that. If I take a position at a Latin parish again, the same questions will come up, if not from the priest, other teacher, probably the parents. I want to teach the faith, not constantly defend the Eastern Church from Latin Catholics who are unaware about them. I mean, I can do that, but that is not the purpose of me being a catechist. Also that issue with the high ranking person in the hierarchy of the catechesis program saying that I do not live that way of life required to teach First Communion to Roman Catholic children. I’d rather find ways to fix the problem rather than do something that will create more.

 

[jwinch2]

I would be surprised if this was not mainly an issue of poor understanding of the Church and what makes it universal. Depending on your level of frustration at the issue, you could contact the priest or even the bishop.

There are two Orthodox churches where I am located and while I certainly love my Orthodox brothers and sisters, I would be lying if I did not say that I wish they were Eastern Catholic. First, I sincerely believe the Catholic Church to be Christ’s one true Church and; second, I would love to have that aspect of the Catholic faith in our community and would enjoy the interaction that we could have.

We had a lady who was canonically Byzantine who was part of our RCIA team last year when I was still in TN. Her background provided no distraction or issue whatsoever. In fact, everyone was delighted to have her since she could often provide a different perspective on the topics at hand, sometimes which resonated more with the candidates and catechumens than what others were saying. Since she lived in a town where there were no Eastern churchs, she had been attending a Latin Rite parish long enough to know and teach from that perspective, but it was nice that she did not have to. One of our other team members was married to a Byzantine Catholic. He would come to our get-togethers outside of class, and had some fresh and interesting perspectives on what we were learning as well.

I will pray that your situation improves or at least you get a more rational and polite depiction of why you would not be allowed to teach.

 

[ConstantineTG]

I would be surprised if this was not mainly an issue of poor understanding of the Church and what makes it universal. Depending on your level of frustration at the issue, you could contact the priest or even the bishop.

There are two Orthodox churches where I am located and while I certainly love my Orthodox brothers and sisters, I would be lying if I did not say that I wish they were Eastern Catholic. First, I sincerely believe the Catholic Church to be Christ’s one true Church and; second, I would love to have that aspect of the Catholic faith in our community and would enjoy the interaction that we could have.

I will pray that your situation improves or at least you get a more rational and polite depiction of why you would not be allowed to teach.

The problem I see is that we here at CAF are knowledgeable enough that this is a great thing for any member here to have. The rest of the Catholic populace are less educated that there are Catholic Churches other than the Roman Catholic Church and approach the Eastern Catholic Churches with caution and suspicion usually reserved for proselytizing non-Catholic denominations. I hope we do our part in educating the other Roman Catholics out there. I sincerely think that the Eastern faith would help build the one true Church especially with so many falling out of the faith today, perhaps a fresh perspective on the faith would help. Also with so many anti-Catholics out there, it helps to know who are on our side.