Tredentine Mass Is Our Right

[ethelzguy]

A question for the TLM crowd.

As an altar boy, back in the day, we had placards for our parts of the Mass, and the priest went pretty much by memory. Some of the altar boys had their parts memorized as well.

But, I vividly remember during the period immediately following Vatcian II, when the altars were turned around, the priests worked exclusively from the Sacrementary. Even today, many priests use the Sacrementary, at least for the EP.

What would the logistics be, for priests doing TLMs for the first time in their lives (not having it in memory) for the Sacrementary if they were facing away from the current altar?

 

[EasterJoy]

There is NO TLM available in any regularized parish in the entire Portland area?

St. Birgitta’s is in NE Portland, but not in a central part of the city. Apparently, the transit lines do not go out that far on Sundays, which are the days on which the EF is offered. Those who don’t drive would have a hard time getting out there.

I’ve found on the archdiocesan website that Immaculate Heart, over by Emmanuel Hospital on the east side of the Willamette River, also has Mass in Latin, on the first three Saturdays.

Again, the problem is finding a priest to do it. They are really stretched thin. I know the archbishop has expressed his gratitude to Fr. Browne, who does St. Brigitta’s EF Masses. What I do not see him doing in the future is choosing a parish with a good location and saying, “Congratulations, you get to learn the EF and offer it.” He already asks a lot of his priests, and wouldn’t want the ones who agree to do the EF to make it anything but a labor of love.

 

[ethelzguy]

St. Birgitta’s is in NE Portland, but not in a central part of the city. Apparently, the transit lines do not go out that far on Sundays, which are the days on which the EF is offered. Those who don’t drive would have a hard time getting out there.

But it IS available in the Portland area then.

I’ve found on the archdiocesan website that Immaculate Heart, over by Emmanuel Hospital on the east side of the Willamette River, also has Mass in Latin, on the first three Saturdays.

Again, the problem is finding a priest to do it. They are really stretched thin. I know the archbishop has expressed his gratitude to Fr. Browne, who does St. Brigitta’s EF Masses. What I do not see him doing in the future is choosing a parish with a good location and saying, “Congratulations, you get to learn the EF and offer it.” He already asks a lot of his priests, and wouldn’t want the ones who agree to do the EF to make it anything but a labor of love.

Agreed.

 

[AlexV]

Yeah, because making something actually accessible isn’t part of…say Christian charity. As long as we offer it, somewhere, even if in a distant and largely inaccessible locale, we have discharged out duty.

 

[cothrige]

Yeah, because making something actually accessible isn’t part of…say Christian charity. As long as we offer it, somewhere, even if in a distant and largely inaccessible locale, we have discharged out duty.

And those in Portland apparently have it lucky. Here the nearest EF is more than a hundred miles away, which is to drive through at least four entire cities and open county. And some here could conceivably have to drive even more than two hundred miles for that Mass since it is at the far end of the diocese.

 

[EasterJoy]

But it IS available in the Portland area then.

Yes. In fact, as far as I know, St. Birgitta’s is the only parish in the state that has a regularly-scheduled Sunday EF Mass. All the other EF Masses in the state that I am aware of are offered on more like a monthly basis at best, and most are during the week.

Again, it is a matter of a limited supply of priests and of the many, many demands placed on them.

Also, not all of our priests found the Latin they did learn in seminary to be one of the highlights of their academic formation. Not every priest loves Latin, let’s face it, and others are all too aware that their aptitude in that language is limited. If you don’t have enough hours in a week to do the things that you know how to do and are good at, it is a tough sell to get you to take on something that you don’t feel is among your gifts.

If organizations like Una Voce succeed in their education and outreach efforts, though, and in cultivating good will relationships with the clergy, both the demand and the willingness of priests to be among those who meet that demand could increase significantly. It is very important that priests don’t feel that they are going to be learning the EF only to offer it for that very segment of their parishioners who complain the most when a detail is out of place. If a priest feels he will need to be perfect out of the gates in order to escape criticism of how he offers the EF, that raises the bar another notch. That alone could be the notch that makes the difference…who wants to learn all over again that “no good deed goes unpunished”?

 

[Brennan_Doherty]

Yeah, because making something actually accessible isn’t part of…say Christian charity. As long as we offer it, somewhere, even if in a distant and largely inaccessible locale, we have discharged out duty.

Yes, quite frankly putting the TLM out at St. Birgitta’s, out past an industrial area in a small church hardly anyone would ever have a reason to drive by, seems as if the diocese wanted to put it in as remote location as possible and yet still be able to say that there is an indult actually being offered.

 

[Brennan_Doherty]

As a followup. I am not trying to be obstructionist, I am trying to be practical. Across Catholic America, we have evolved into something of a “customized” Mass culture.

We have guitar Mass, LifeTeen Mass, Vietnamese Mass, Spanish Mass, Polish Mass, etc., etc,.

It is safe to say, that most of these “custom” Masses are a result of demand or practicality. If 25-30 percent of your congregation is Hispanic with poor English skills, practicality and demand suggests that you have a Spanish Mass.

The same goes with the other “language-specific” Masses. LifeTeen and guitar Masses as such, probably don’t quite fit the “demand” issue as well. Even so, these evolved as a result of demand of some sort. Or in the case of guitar Masses, in some parishes if it wasn’t for the guitars, there wouldn’t be any music at all.

What I do see here at CAF, is the idea that “the parishes should offer TLMs and the demand would grow.” Seems a little “cart before the horse”. Perhaps if the demand were demonstrated by petition or something similar, things might change.

Another issue is Mass space. For example, in the next town, where some of my kids and grandkids go, they have 5 Masses every weekend. One Saturday and four on Sunday. They are ALL SRO. And, that’s not exaggerating. The 1pm Spanish Mass actually has people out the doors, down the steps, and on the sidewalk…So, how would you accomodate a TLM? Many of the SRO crowd in any of the other Masses wouldn’t want it, and they would attempt to shift to another Mass, which wouldn’t work, and they would wind up at another parish all together.

So, it’s not always about a priest or parish not wanting to do it, it’s a matter of practicality.

Yet taking it back even further, and having heard from people who were living at the time, there certainly was no “demand” for a wholesale change to the liturgy, or the Mass completely in the vernacular, or for the Priest to face the people, or for communion in the hand, standing to receive communion, altar rails being torn up, altar girls, “wreckovation” of our churches or any number of things which were simply imposed on the laity (who pretty much had to go along with it all).

Hence, in a way, these impositions created their own “demand.” Thus of course the Spanish and other groups would (rightfully) expect Mass in their own language since English speaking people certainly have it.

Regarding the TLM, if one has a music school that has a number of offerings in the realm of pop and rock, it wouldn’t be surprising if a number of students aren’t demanding classical music (particularly if they have not had much exposure to it.) Yet if the school actually wants to train musicians, then they are going to have to have the kids learn Mozart and Beethoven whether they have demanded it or not. It’s in the best interest of the students.

 

[EasterJoy]

Yes, quite frankly putting the TLM out at St. Birgitta’s, out past an industrial area in a small church hardly anyone would ever have a reason to drive by, seems as if the diocese wanted to put it in as remote location as possible and yet still be able to say that there is an indult actually being offered.

According to Archbishop Vlazny: “….at St. Birgitta’s Parish on Highway 30 between Portland and Scappoose….I attended and preached at the Latin Tridentine Mass, celebrated each week by Father Joseph Browne, CSC, the former pastor…The 8 a.m. Tridentine Mass at St. Birgitta’s Church was begun when Cardinal Levada was our archbishop. Pope John Paul II had asked bishops to make this liturgical rite available to those who found it more appropriate for their needs. Father Browne has generously led the community in this liturgical rite for many years…"

In other words, the EF is at St. Birgitta’s because both Fr. Browne and a group who wanted the EF were at St. Birgitta’s when Pope John Paul requested the EF be made available.

I think this is likely to remain the pattern. Before an EF is going to be instituted somewhere else on a regular basis, the archbishop is going to want to be sure that there is a priest available who wants to commit to doing it over the long term, and at a location that can be depended on to have a stable group over the long term. It isn’t simply going to be mandated from the chancery office. In fact, I would think that if a priest comes forward for this, he might be asked to either join with what Fr. Browne has already started and has had to do alone or else offer the EF on a basis that is clearly not permanent, rather than putting in a separate permanently-scheduled EF somewhere else. You don’t want to train people to expect a permanent EF, and then fail to follow up over the long term.

Now, if the Dominicans were to ask to be allowed to offer the Latin Mass in the Dominican rite, and assured the archbishop that the order would see to it that a priest would always be assigned there who was willing to do it…well, I could see that happening.

I don’t know that the Dominicans can make that kind of a commitment at present, though. They are a preaching order, and may not want to commit to staffing a particular parish in that way, lest it interfere in the future with other demands that the order feels are more pressing. I think that is the kind of consideration that the EF supporters are up against.

 

[EasterJoy]

Yet taking it back even further, and having heard from people who were living at the time, there certainly was no “demand” for a wholesale change to the liturgy, or the Mass completely in the vernacular, or for the Priest to face the people, or for communion in the hand, standing to receive communion, altar rails being torn up, altar girls, “wreckovation” of our churches or any number of things which were simply imposed on the laity (who pretty much had to go along with it all).

Hence, in a way, these impositions created their own “demand.” Thus of course the Spanish and other groups would (rightfully) expect Mass in their own language since English speaking people certainly have it.

Regarding the TLM, if one has a music school that has a number of offerings in the realm of pop and rock, it wouldn’t be surprising if a number of students aren’t demanding classical music (particularly if they have not had much exposure to it.) Yet if the school actually wants to train musicians, then they are going to have to have the kids learn Mozart and Beethoven whether they have demanded it or not. It’s in the best interest of the students.

Whether the initial change to the OF was done wisely or unwisely is a moot point. It was done, and the majority of Catholics are not clamoring to go back to the EF…particularly when it is not offered as a Missa recitata.

I think that education is going to have to precede any widespread re-introduction of the Latin Mass. The American Church is not what it was in 1962, and the Latin Mass will not come back in the same way in which it was replaced. The faithful will no longer take the role of obedient children who will not talk back. Argue that this change was for the better or for the worse, wish all you like that things were other than what they were, but that bridge has been blown up behind us.

 

[Brennan_Doherty]

Whether the initial change to the OF was done wisely or unwisely is a moot point. It was done, and the majority of Catholics are not clamoring to go back to the EF…particularly when it is not offered as a Missa recitata.

I think that education is going to have to precede any widespread re-introduction of the Latin Mass. The American Church is not what it was in 1962, and the Latin Mass will not come back in the same way in which it was replaced. The faithful will no longer take the role of obedient children who will not talk back. Argue that this change was for the better or for the worse, wish all you like that things were other than what they were, but that bridge has been blown up behind us.

I don’t disagree with this, and also note that many Catholics have probably never had much, if any, exposure to the TLM, thus they are probably not going to clamor for something they have never experienced. If they do experience it, I hope it would be with Gregorian chant, otherwise, without any prior education (as you noted) they might experience it once and simply brush it off as something they “can’t understand” and leave it at that.

 

[EasterJoy]

I don’t disagree with this, and also note that many Catholics have probably never had much, if any, exposure to the TLM, thus they are probably not going to clamor for something they have never experienced. If they do experience it, I hope it would be with Gregorian chant, otherwise, without any prior education (as you noted) they might experience it once and simply brush it off as something they “can’t understand” and leave it at that.

I like that Una Voce is having symposia on the EF, and not just arranging to have the EF offered. I think a lot more people will check it out that way: a) if they don’t have to come in cold, but have some explanation of what will be happening and b) if they know the group promoting the EF in their area doesn’t expect all comers to hit the ground running, so to speak.

 

[Auntie_M]

I have not been on this traditional thread for quite some time, but I see it hasn’t changed any. The arguing still goes on.

In reading thru most of the posts, I saw a picture emerging…

Jesus preaching the GOOD NEWS, the new covenant, a striking change from the old covenant that the Jews were used to.

The Jewish people didn’t want this NEW teaching so they rejected IT and CHRIST.

Christ, however, just kept on preaching the New Covenant.

But the Jewish people got what they wanted, they thought, they “thought” they had stopped that NEW preaching when they
CRUCIFIED HIM.!!!

Is that what all this is about now. Is Christ being CRUCIFIED NOW…AGAIN It really does seem to be.

Just because it is NEW doesn’t mean it is all bad. And just because it is old doesn’t mean it is all good.

Whomever is arguing now for whichever mass, What will they say to Christ. Maybe something like this:

" I used ALL my time fighting to get my rights to have the mass I wanted. The Mass of all time". and then with head held low, “Maybe, I should have spent more time in prayer, instead”

Will Jesus say, “Well done my child” or “go away, I never knew you”

If you don’t stop all this OF/ EF, our church is being torn to pieces in front of our very own eyes. Why would ANY new convert want to join a church with this kind of stuff going on all the time.

Those who keep it going are certainly not obedient, charitable, or are looking out for the church as a whole, but only what they selfishly want.

I am sure to get alot of hateful remarks from this one, but I have heard this stuff so much, I 'm getting sick of it.

I DON’T WANT MY CHURCH TORN APART…

 

[EasterJoy]

I have not been on this traditional thread for quite some time, but I see it hasn’t changed any. The arguing still goes on.

In reading thru most of the posts, I saw a picture emerging…

Jesus preaching the GOOD NEWS, the new covenant, a striking change from the old covenant that the Jews were used to.

The Jewish people didn’t want this NEW teaching so they rejected IT and CHRIST.

Christ, however, just kept on preaching the New Covenant.

But the Jewish people got what they wanted, they thought, they “thought” they had stopped that NEW preaching when they
CRUCIFIED HIM.!!!

Is that what all this is about now. Is Christ being CRUCIFIED NOW…AGAIN It really does seem to be.

Just because it is NEW doesn’t mean it is all bad. And just because it is old doesn’t mean it is all good.

Whomever is arguing now for whichever mass, What will they say to Christ. Maybe something like this:

" I used ALL my time fighting to get my rights to have the mass I wanted. The Mass of all time". and then with head held low, “Maybe, I should have spent more time in prayer, instead”

Will Jesus say, “Well done my child” or “go away, I never knew you”

If you don’t stop all this OF/ EF, our church is being torn to pieces in front of our very own eyes. Why would ANY new convert want to join a church with this kind of stuff going on all the time.

Those who keep it going are certainly not obedient, charitable, or are looking out for the church as a whole, but only what they selfishly want.

I am sure to get alot of hateful remarks from this one, but I have heard this stuff so much, I 'm getting sick of it.

I DON’T WANT MY CHURCH TORN APART…

There is no necessary reason for the Church to be torn apart by this. The wider introduction of the EF can be done charitably, to the benefit of the entire Church.

The introduction of the OF is not analogous to the preaching of the Gospel to the Jews. That is a false analogy, and really not fair. If anything, this is more like St. Paul’s experience with people who would not eat meat offered to idols. He counselled that those without scruples cater to those who have scruples. If some of our brothers or sisters feel they need one form or the other, surely we should not stand in their way, not without a compelling practical reason.

As for what we’re going to say to Our Lord, I think a plea for mercy will be in order from all of us, without exception. That’s why we need the Mass in the first place, all of us.

 

[Brennan_Doherty]

I have not been on this traditional thread for quite some time, but I see it hasn’t changed any. The arguing still goes on.

In reading thru most of the posts, I saw a picture emerging…

Jesus preaching the GOOD NEWS, the new covenant, a striking change from the old covenant that the Jews were used to.

The Jewish people didn’t want this NEW teaching so they rejected IT and CHRIST.

Christ, however, just kept on preaching the New Covenant.

But the Jewish people got what they wanted, they thought, they “thought” they had stopped that NEW preaching when they
CRUCIFIED HIM.!!!

Is that what all this is about now. Is Christ being CRUCIFIED NOW…AGAIN It really does seem to be.

Just because it is NEW doesn’t mean it is all bad. And just because it is old doesn’t mean it is all good.

Whomever is arguing now for whichever mass, What will they say to Christ. Maybe something like this:

" I used ALL my time fighting to get my rights to have the mass I wanted. The Mass of all time". and then with head held low, “Maybe, I should have spent more time in prayer, instead”

Will Jesus say, “Well done my child” or “go away, I never knew you”

If you don’t stop all this OF/ EF, our church is being torn to pieces in front of our very own eyes. Why would ANY new convert want to join a church with this kind of stuff going on all the time.

Those who keep it going are certainly not obedient, charitable, or are looking out for the church as a whole, but only what they selfishly want.

I am sure to get alot of hateful remarks from this one, but I have heard this stuff so much, I 'm getting sick of it.

I DON’T WANT MY CHURCH TORN APART…

If you don’t like debates on the liturgy then I would recommend staying off of the traditional sub-forum. I don’t say that to be mean but this debate began when an inorganic form of Mass concocted by a committee was imposed on the entire Church while what was once considered her greatest liturgical treasure was virtually suppressed. The liturgy should be debated because the liturgy is just as important, if not more important, than catechesis.

The debate is not going anywhere and continues to go on even at the highest levels of the Church. But sometimes debate is good in that it can change minds if they are open and the arguments are listened to (and they are good). I have no desire to be in a Church where all her members simply ignore what has happened to the liturgy and act as if one liturgical form (by what standard I have no idea) is just as good as another and it really does not matter what liturgy is used.

Having said that, I realize the liturgy, and debate about it, does not interest or engage everyone.

As far as what I would say to Christ I would probably say (despite you using your omniscient powers to discern our selfish motives–yea, that’s it–you hit the nail on the head!) that I wanted to pray the same prayers the Saints of the Church prayed like St. Joan of Arc or Padre Pio, because liturgy shapes the souls of Catholics. I would say that I wanted Catholic doctrine expressed as strongly as possible. I would say I wanted His Body and Blood handled as reverently as possible. And I would say that the greater the use of the TLM the better off the Church’s members will be.

 

[pnewton]

If you don’t stop all this OF/ EF, our church is being torn to pieces in front of our very own eyes…

I DON’T WANT MY CHURCH TORN APART…

Fear not. The Church is not going to be torn apart anytime soon. If this is not your cup of tea, I understand. But I do not believe things are in a crisis any more than when others cry “crisis” because of the changes in liturgy.

There are still plenty of us, on both sides, that strive to understand what the other wants and meet their needs and not just our own. I have had more charitable debates, even here, than confrontational ones. I have also seen the best in people of both sides.

No, the Church is not getting torn any time soon. As with all changes, there will be some that adapt easier than others. But let us give God some credit for being able to lead through the intervention of the Holy Spirit.

 

[Auntie_M]

If you don’t like debates on the liturgy then I would recommend staying off of the traditional sub-forum. I don’t say that to be mean but this debate began when an inorganic form of Mass concocted by a committee was imposed on the entire Church while what was once considered her greatest liturgical treasure was virtually suppressed. The liturgy should be debated because the liturgy is just as important, if not more important, than catechesis.

The debate is not going anywhere and continues to go on even at the highest levels of the Church. But sometimes debate is good in that it can change minds if they are open and the arguments are listened to (and they are good).

Having said that, I realize the liturgy, and debate about it, does not interest or engage everyone.

As far as what I would say to Christ I would probably say** (despite you using your omniscient powers to discern our selfish motives–yea, that’s it–you hit the nail on the head!)** that** I wanted** to pray the same prayers the Saints of the Church prayed like St. Joan of Arc or Padre Pio, because liturgy shapes the souls of Catholics. I would say that I wanted Catholic doctrine expressed as strongly as possible. I would say **I wanted **His Body and Blood handled as reverently as possible. And I would say that the greater the use of the TLM the better off the Church’s members will be.

my omniscent powers? must have been right!

THREE, I say, 3 “I wants” in ONE paragraph!!!

need I say more. Let the ones who CAN do something about it debate it privately. There is NO need to put this stuff out for all to read, esp. the NEW CONVERTS. You really dont realize (or want to realize) the impact it has on them…

It is NOT just what “I WANT”.

 

[Auntie_M]

There is no necessary reason for the Church to be torn apart by this. The wider introduction of the EF can be done charitably, to the benefit of the entire Church.

If anything, this is more like St. Paul’s experience with people who would not eat meat offered to idols. He counselled that those without scru

**The introduction of the OF is not analogous to the preaching of the Gospel to the Jews. That is a false analogy, and really not fair. **

ples cater to those who have scruples. If some of our brothers or sisters feel they need one form or the other, surely we should not stand in their way, not without a compelling practical reason.

The POPE is a compeling practical reason, don’t you think!!!

As for what we’re going to say to Our Lord, I think a plea for mercy will be in order from all of us, without exception. That’s why we need the Mass in the first place, all of us.

**My interpretation of the arguments stand as before. It is NOT a false analogy any more than the statements like…

“The OF doesn’t need to exist”!!! Just where does THAT comes from??? (Charitable people?)**

 

[Auntie_M]

I have not been on this traditional thread for quite some time, but I see it hasn’t changed any. The arguing still goes on.

In reading thru most of the posts, I saw a picture emerging…

Jesus preaching the GOOD NEWS, the new covenant, a striking change from the old covenant that the Jews were used to.

The Jewish people didn’t want this NEW teaching so they rejected IT and CHRIST.

Christ, however, just kept on preaching the New Covenant.

But the Jewish people got what they wanted, they thought, they “thought” they had stopped that NEW preaching when they
CRUCIFIED HIM.!!!

Is that what all this is about now. Is Christ being CRUCIFIED NOW…AGAIN It really does seem to be.

Just because it is NEW doesn’t mean it is all bad. And just because it is old doesn’t mean it is all good.

Whomever is arguing now for whichever mass, What will they say to Christ. Maybe something like this:

" I used ALL my time fighting to get my rights to have the mass I wanted. The Mass of all time". and then with head held low, “Maybe, I should have spent more time in prayer, instead”

Will Jesus say, “Well done my child” or “go away, I never knew you”

If you don’t stop all this OF/ EF, our church is being torn to pieces in front of our very own eyes. Why would ANY new convert want to join a church with this kind of stuff going on all the time.

Those who keep it going are certainly not obedient, charitable, or are looking out for the church as a whole, but only what they selfishly want.

I am sure to get alot of hateful remarks from this one, but I have heard this stuff so much, I 'm getting sick of it.

I DON’T WANT MY CHURCH TORN APART…

AND I QUOTE AGAIN…

 

[AlexV]

Don’t forget, the tide has indeed turned.

Circa 1975, the message from Rome was clear: we changed the liturgy, almost overnight. We virtually abolished a form of worship that existed for centuries, and we replaced it with a “banal, on-the-spot fabrication” that had been crafted by a committee of “experts”.

Nobody in Rome circa 1975 envisaged Ecclesia Dei, let alone Summorum Pontificum. It was made very clear that the “new Missal” was intended to REPLACE the old entirely and utterly.

The efforts of those days failed.