Tredentine Mass Is Our Right

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No - again, it’s been all bar a tiny minority. Exclusive means literally no exceptions - read a dictionary sometime.
My, but aren’t we condescending and rude. I would suggest, however, the next time you decide to insult somebody in such a nasty manner you should actually know what you are talking about. So, again for your benefit, I said that I have not even once seen an ad orientem Mass, and so “in terms of my experience” it has been exclusive. Every Mass I have been to has been versus populum, exclusively. That has been my experience, and I was careful to narrow my meaning to that. What you have to say about Irondale Alabama has absolutely nothing to do with anything relevant.
 
My, but aren’t we condescending and rude. I would suggest, however, the next time you decide to insult somebody in such a nasty manner you should actually know what you are talking about. So, again for your benefit, I said that I have not even once seen an ad orientem Mass, and so “in terms of my experience” it has been exclusive. Every Mass I have been to has been versus populum, exclusively. That has been my experience, and I was careful to narrow my meaning to that. What you have to say about Irondale Alabama has absolutely nothing to do with anything relevant.
Since your experience clearly extends only to Masses you’ve personally either seen or attended, then you are indeed correct and I apologise.

I know that within a short time of my joining CAF, however, that my own experience of Mass was extended well beyond what I had personally attended or seen - people on here do talk about their experiences of Mass too.

I don’t mean to be condescending in assuming that someone who’s been on CAF for a year and a half as you have been would’ve seen at least some of the threads that (in their titles if nothing else) have mentioned Ad Orientem NO Masses, as I did soon after joining.

Trust me, it’s because I think I’m very ordinary indeed that I am surprised sometimes that people don’t know what I know, and not because I’m meaning to be condescending or think I have any special knowledge.
 
I am carefully reading each post one at a time. No one here has claimed that the Ordinary Form is invalid.

The Pope himself has severely criticized the way the OF is commonly celebrated. To do so is acceptable. Michael Davies recently was Eulogized by the Pope. He spent his ENTIRE scholarly career arguing the EF was SUPERIOR to the OF. The Pope’s comments make clear that views like this are licit for the faithful to hold.

God Bless.
No one here on this particular thread has claimed that the Ordinary Form is invalid. I have, however, seen it posted by various people in this particular forum in general that the Ordinary Form is invalid. One rather vicious member has, in fact, been one of those people; not only has the poster stated that the Ordinary Form is invalid, as well as illicit and even sinful to attend, but that it has just about reached the end of the line and will soon be gone forever.

I realize that the directives put forth by the Second Vatican Council were not implemented in the proper way. But the mistakes are being corrected, and we are seeing abuses slowly disappearing. I understand that I, as a member of Holy Mother Church, have the right to seek out the Gregorian Form if I so desire it. I do not, however, need to be “converted” to it, as if I have to be proselytized to about the Catholic Faith like a non-Catholic would be; if I want to assist at the Gregorian Form, I would choose to do so without help from anyone else.

Hopefully I’ve made a little more sense. Pax et bonum. 🙂
 
No one here on this particular thread has claimed that the Ordinary Form is invalid.
No. “Unacceptable” was the word used. I though scratch my head as to how the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass can be unacceptable to someone, when it is holy and acceptable to God, unless one considers it invalid, or is not in union with God.
 
No. “Unacceptable” was the word used. I though scratch my head as to how the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass can be unacceptable to someone, when it is holy and acceptable to God, unless one considers it invalid, or is not in union with God.
Yes. Sorry, pnewton, you’re correct. Eight hours at work and my feet killing me…my brain’s already half-shut down. I had only used invalid to respond to cathguy, who used it originally. “Unacceptable” had been the operative word, but I agree with what you say about how a person would find not find the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass (in either form) unacceptable. 😊
 
Today, We Have Witnessed Serials Of Abuses In The Holy Mass. The Place Where Jesus Shades Blood For Us Have Been Turned In To An Entertainment Center. You Can Hardly Distinguish Between A Catholic And Pentecostal Service. Many Songs Which Are Not Of Catholic Origin Which Serves To Please The Body Instead Of The Spirit Have Been Introduced. The Holy Father Have Finally Approved That We Can Go Back To The Tredentine Mass. In Some Places, It Has Been Granted, While In Some Places, It Has Been Decline. It Is Important For Us To Know That Tredentine Mass Is Our Right.

God Bless You All
And in some dioceses, like mine, many people probably still don’t even know about the Motu Proprio and Summorum Pontificum. It’s as if it never happened because the Bishop and the priests have never talked about it.

Anyway, I agree with you!

Amen! and God bless you!
 
I said it before, as long as you are with in the boundries established by the Church, live and let live. Better yet, esteem your brother more than yourself. We should strive more for the rights of others than our own.
 
Since your experience clearly extends only to Masses you’ve personally either seen or attended, then you are indeed correct and I apologise.
Apology accepted.
I know that within a short time of my joining CAF, however, that my own experience of Mass was extended well beyond what I had personally attended or seen - people on here do talk about their experiences of Mass too.
I don’t mean to be condescending in assuming that someone who’s been on CAF for a year and a half as you have been would’ve seen at least some of the threads that (in their titles if nothing else) have mentioned Ad Orientem NO Masses, as I did soon after joining.
I have, and I know about them, but it doesn’t matter since I didn’t claim that they don’t happen. I was very careful about my use of exclusive and narrowed it to what happens to me, which is the imporant point to any of us. This very thread is about our rights, which is what we as Catholics can experience, not what we can hear about others experiencing.

Consider your words above and how you you view the issue of experience in this. You say that your “experience of Mass” has expanded since coming to CAF, but I think you are mistaken. Your knowledge about the experience of others has expanded, but your experiences are still your own. If you happen to live in a town with wonderful, attentive and reverent priests who offer Masses in both EF and OF, and both ad orientem and versus populum, then I am happy for you. However, knowing about this doesn’t make it possible for me experience this during Mass, and if my priest engages regularly in abuse it won’t make that go away. What I can experience myself in Mass won’t change regardless of your own. And if you take your personal experience or that of another and then use it to build a position that all have identical experiences, or even that all people should be as satisfied as you are with your experience, then you are engaging in a fallacious proposition.

And it is this exactly which is the most common position posited by one group of people in this forum. I see it all the time. People who love the EF should go there, and those who love the OF should go there, and all should be happy that they can do so. However, many cannot go to one of those, and so that point is moot. What if the Constitution were treated in this manner? What if people in one town were held without bail, had no right to a jury trial, and could not face their accusers? Would it be acceptable or even meaningful to say that it is okay since other towns have such protections? Would it matter to the accused in that town what happens up the road? Why should it?

The Eucharist is not something to be argued in statistical terms. It is a personal meeting and communing with God. If one place has a holy and worshipful bishop who actually feeds his sheep that is good. But, it doesn’t actually make up for or change the lives of those who don’t have such a blessing. Thus my focus on experience. I know you care that ad orientem Masses do happen, and so do I in a theoretical way, but of far, far more importance to each and every one of us is what we see each Sunday in our Church.
 
I said it before, as long as you are with in the boundries established by the Church, live and let live. Better yet, esteem your brother more than yourself. We should strive more for the rights of others than our own.
:amen: to that, pnewton.
 
Apology accepted.

I have, and I know about them, but it doesn’t matter since I didn’t claim that they don’t happen. I was very careful about my use of exclusive and narrowed it to what happens to me, which is the imporant point to any of us. This very thread is about our rights, which is what we as Catholics can experience, not what we can hear about others experiencing.

Consider your words above and how you you view the issue of experience in this. You say that your “experience of Mass” has expanded since coming to CAF, but I think you are mistaken. Your knowledge about the experience of others has expanded, but your experiences are still your own. If you happen to live in a town with wonderful, attentive and reverent priests who offer Masses in both EF and OF, and both ad orientem and versus populum, then I am happy for you. However, knowing about this doesn’t make it possible for me experience this during Mass, and if my priest engages regularly in abuse it won’t make that go away. What I can experience myself in Mass won’t change regardless of your own. And if you take your personal experience or that of another and then use it to build a position that all have identical experiences, or even that all people should be as satisfied as you are with your experience, then you are engaging in a fallacious proposition.

And it is this exactly which is the most common position posited by one group of people in this forum. I see it all the time. People who love the EF should go there, and those who love the OF should go there, and all should be happy that they can do so. However, many cannot go to one of those, and so that point is moot. What if the Constitution were treated in this manner? What if people in one town were held without bail, had no right to a jury trial, and could not face their accusers? Would it be acceptable or even meaningful to say that it is okay since other towns have such protections? Would it matter to the accused in that town what happens up the road? Why should it?

The Eucharist is not something to be argued in statistical terms. It is a personal meeting and communing with God. If one place has a holy and worshipful bishop who actually feeds his sheep that is good. But, it doesn’t actually make up for or change the lives of those who don’t have such a blessing. Thus my focus on experience. I know you care that ad orientem Masses do happen, and so do I in a theoretical way, but of far, far more importance to each and every one of us is what we see each Sunday in our Church.
Hang on - perhaps my use of the word ‘experience’ is wrong (although arguably what one learns is also part of one’s experience) - I accept that if I substituted the phrase ‘understanding of the Mass’ for ‘experience of the Mass’ it would be more correct.

But the argument I was addressing wasn’t about people’s personal experiences at all. Nor was it about rights. It WAS about generalisations. It wasn’t argued that versus populum etc was exclusively EXPERIENCED by Americans or anyone else, for many it undoubtedly is so. It was argued more generally and quite differently, that these were exclusively USED in America or other places. A different thing altogether, I trust you’ll agree.

As for OF v EF - sounds like some of us want a Catholic version of Baskin Robbins or Ben and Jerry, with each different ‘flavour’ to be available all the time. Now I’ll freely admit I’m not on a personal level hugely devoted to the EF, however if the EF were to be the only Mass available to me in my parish I can assure you you would not hear a peep from me about wanting anything other. Knowing how overworked and underresourced our priests are I would simply thank God that my parish wasn’t closed down and that I had a priest - any priest - and a valid Mass - any Mass.
 
when they created the new mass, they abstracted the mass whereby “scholars” and not saints determined what was essential and what wasn’t. this basically opened the door to even more liturgical innovation. in my opinion, allowing a liturgical committee determine how the mass is celebrated was a ginourmous mistake. it cheapened the liturgy by reducing it to bare elements until it became a banal fabrication.

this is why liturgical development or reform must happen slowly and organically. it should never appear as a distinct change.
 
Hang on - perhaps my use of the word ‘experience’ is wrong (although arguably what one learns is also part of one’s experience) - I accept that if I substituted the phrase ‘understanding of the Mass’ for ‘experience of the Mass’ it would be more correct.
Okay, I can understand what that would mean, though I am not sure I would see much of a reason to ever assert it.
But the point of the argument wasn’t about people’s personal experiences at all. It wasn’t argued that versus populum etc was exclusively EXPERIENCED by Americans or anyone else, it was argued that it was exclusively USED in America or other places.
Well, I don’t quite follow that. What is used is what is experienced. However, I will concede that the discussion had been about what was exclusively being done, and in that I happened to agree with your point about it. I left your response about the use of exclusive by that person to stand and did not disagree with it. But, I then carried this issue further, from that which is exclusive or not in a general sense, to that which is exclusive for each of us personally. This is simply a more imporant point in my opinion, and is the point so often ignored in these discussions of generalities. Especially on this forum.

If there is only one ad orientem Mass offered in one parish in the world each year, then versus populum is not being used exclusively in a global sense, but it may as well be since I don’t own a plane. And just as this is so, if it is not offered in a single parish in my entire town then it is equally exclusive. This is very important as it is how I can worship, and it is this personal contact with the sacraments which is often ignored to make what I see as a comparatively trivial point about what is being done in another country.
And I would argue that what is more important for the Church (since we’re arguing about what the church should do in terms of offering or promoting the different forms of Mass) is what is offered on a universal level by it, since it is utterly impossible for it to ensure that every individual Catholic has exactly the same experience in Mass anyway.
Well, I don’t think .001% of Masses is something being done “universally.” Further, I think we cannot ignore that every Mass is universal. The Masses I have available here are universal, just as yours are. And if we have rights as Catholics to licit Masses, or even the EF, then it should apply to all everywhere, which is also universal, and not just a few in a few places. And I find the best way to approach that is to look at what we have to live with, and what we can see and do in our churches, and not try to look at the Church or her Mass as a statistical discussion.
Certainly access to the different forms of Mass should be broadened, and has been since SP came out. Certainly abuses should be curbed, and I’ve seen great improvements in this area over the last 5-10 years. Certainly more Latin in the Mass, which I’ve seen increase even in the past 2-3 years.
Maybe, I don’t know. None of this has happened here. Nothing has changed in fifteen years here that I can tell, unless a priest has died and the next one was more liberal, or less liberal, or some such. But nothing indicitave of a general shift has been evident at all. Hearing that you or somebody else can go to a million different types of Masses doesn’t mean much to us in the trenches, that I can tell you. Here things continue on and not once has any document from the Holy Father, whether it be SP or an encyclical, ever been mentioned by any representative of the Church. I have never heard anything in the pulpit, or from the Bishop (excepting his statement that SP wasn’t allowed to be implemented here and that was online and not to any of us in the diocese) that referred to anything from Pope Benedict. Discussions about what the Church is doing here or there simply cannot trump what I see everyday. That is Church to me, and it should be to all of us.
 
Actually, Consumed, we do have a right to the Mass and all the sacraments. Canon Law says as much. So did John Paul II in his document from 1980: “The faithful have a right to a true Liturgy . . .”

And there has always been a right to the Traditional Mass, which has never been banned. Pope Benedict explicitly stated this in his motu proprio.

And you’re right-- the Catholic Church is a place–the place!-- to worship Christ, which is precisely why the New Mass is unacceptable . . . it places emphasis on man rather than God.
I would think that someone who focuses so much on what other people are doing at a Mass to the point of judging if they are irreverent or not is the one who is focusing more on man rather than God during the Mass.🤷

Blessings,
Marduk
Fortunately for the rest of us, and unfortunately for you, the Pope disagrees. 👍
Well, let’s see what someone who speaks for the Pope says about this one …

**“Why Ratzinger is recouping the sacred”

Marco Politi

The signal was unmistakable. First Coprus Christi in Rome, then seen live all over the word from Sydney. Benedict XVI is demanding that, before him, Communion be received on one’s knees. It is one of many reclamations of this pontificate: Latin, the “Tridentine” Mass, celebration with the back to the faithful.

Pope Ratzinger has a plan and the and the Sri Lankan [Archbishop] Malcolm Ranjith, whom the Pontiff wanted with him in the Vatican as Secretary of the Congregation for Divine Worship, lays out with efficacy.

Attention to liturgy, he explains, has the objective of an “openness to the transcendent”. At the request of the Pope, Ranjith states in advance, the Congregation for divine Worship is preparing a Compendium on the Eucharist to help priests to “prepare themselves well for Eucharistic celebration and adoration”.

Does Communion kneeling aim in this direction?

“In the liturgy one feels the necessity to recover the sense of the sacred, above all in Eucharistic celebration. Since we believe that what happens at the altar goes far beyond what we can humanly imagine. And so the faith of the Church in the Real Presence of Christ in the Eucharistic species is expressed through adequate gestures and comportments different from those of daily life”.

Indicating a discontinuity?

"We are not in front of a political figure or a personage of modern society, but before God. When the presence of eternal God descends on the altar, we must place ourselves in a posture more apt for adoring It. In my culture, in Sri Lanka, we ought to prostrate ourselves with head to the pavement as the buddhists and muslims do in prayer.

Does putting the Host in the hand diminish the sense of transcendence of the Eucharist?

“Yes, in a certain sense. It risks that the communicant feel It to be as normal bread. The Holy Father speaks often of the necessity of safeguarding the sense of “otherness” in the liturgy in its every expression. The gesture of taking the Sacred Host and putting it ourselves in the mouth and not receiving It reduces the profound meaning of Communion.”

Is there a desire to oppose trends that banalize the Mass?

“In some places that sense of the eternal, sacred or heavenly has been lost. There was a tendency to put man at the center of the celebration, and not the Lord. But the Second Vatican Council speaks clearly about the liturgy as actio Dei, actio Christi. Instead, in certain liturgical circles, either for an ideology or a certain intellectualism as you please, the idea spread of a liturgy adaptable to various situations, in which one had to leave room for creativity, so that it be accessible and acceptable to all. Then, rather, there were those who introduced innovations without even respecting the sensus fidei and the spiritual sentiments of the faithful.”

At times even bishops grap the microphone and go out to their listeners with questions and answers.

“The modern danger is that the priest things that he is at the center of the action. In that way the rite can take on an aspect of theatre or the performance of a television host. The celebrant sees the people who see him as the point of reference and there is a risk that, to have the greatest success possible with the public, he makes up gestures and expressions as if he were the main character.”

What would be the right attitude?

“When the priest knows that it is not he at the center, bu Christ. In humble service to the Lord and the Church respecting the liturgy and its rules, as something to be received and not to be invented, it means leaving greater room for the Lord, because through the priest as the instrument He can spark the awareness of the faithful.”

Are sermons by lay people also deviations?

"Yes. Because the sermon, as the Holy Father says, is the way in which Revelation and the great Tradition of the Church is explained, so that the Word of God can inspire the life of the faithful in their daily choices and render the liturgical celebration rich with spiritual fruits. The liturgical tradition of the Church reserves the sermon to the celebrant. To bishops, to priests, and to deacons. But not to laypeople.

Absolutely not?

“Not because they are not capable of doing making a reflection, but because in the liturgy roles must be respected. There exists, as the Council said, a difference ‘in essence and not only in grade” between the common priesthood of all the baptized and that of priests".

Some time ago Card. Ratzinger was complaining about the loss in the rites of the sense of mystery.

"Often the conciliar reform was interpreted or considered in a way not entirely in conformity with the mind of Vatican II. The Holy Father defines this tendency as the ‘anti-spirit’ of the Council.

A year now since the full reintroduction of the Tridentine Mass, what is the assessment?

"The Tridentine Mass has its very profound internal values which reflect the whole tradition of the Church. There is more respect toward the sacred through gestures, genuflections, the times of silence. There is greater room reserved for reflection on the action of the Lord and also for the celebrant’s personal sense of devotion, who offers the sacrifice not only for the faithful but also for his own sins and his own salvation. Some important elements of the old rite can help also a reflection on the manner of celebrating the Novus Ordo. We are in the midst of a journey.

Some day in the future is there foreseen a rite that takes the best of the old and of the new?

“That could be, … but perhaps I don’t see that. I think that in the coming decades we will move toward a comprehensive evaluation both of the older rite and of the new, safeguarding whatever is eternal and supernatural happening at the altar and reducing every desire to be the in the limelight so as to leave space for effective contact between the faithful and the Lord through the figure, but not predominantly, of the priest.”

With alternative positions of the celebrant? When the priest would be turned around toward the apse?

"You could consider the offertory, when the offerings are brought to the priest, and from there all the way to the Eucharistic prayer, which represents the culminating moment of “transsubstantiatio” and “communio”.**

(continued…)
 
(continued)
**The priest who turns his back disorients the faithful.

“It is a mistake to speak in that way. On the contrary, he is turned to the Lord together with the people. The Holy Father, in his book The Spirit of the Council, explained that when people are sitting around looking at each other, a closed circle is formed. But when the priest and the faithful together a looking to the East, toward the Lord who comes, that is a way of opening up to the eternal”.

In this view you put also the rehabilitation (recupero) of Latin?

"I don’t like the word ‘rehabilitation’. We are implementing the Second Vatican Council, which explicitly affirmed that the use of the Latin language, except in the case of particular law, was to be preserved in the Latin Rites. So, if room was also left for the introduction of vernacular languages, Latin wasn’t to be completely abandoned. The use of a sacred language is a tradition in the whole world. In Hinduism the language of prayer is Sanskrit, which isn’t in use anymore. In Buddhism Pali is used, a language which only Buddist monks study. In Islam the Arabic of the Koran is used. The use of a sacred language helps us to a lived experience of “otherness”.

Latin as the sacred language of the Church?

“Of course. The Holy Father himself speaks in his Apostolic Exhortation Sacramentum caritatis in paragraph 62: “In order to express more clearly the unity and universality of the Church, I wish to endorse the proposal made by the Synod of Bishops, in harmony with the directives of the Second Vatican Council, that, with the exception of the readings, the homily and the prayer of the faithful, it is fitting that such liturgies be celebrated in Latin.” Of course, in during international gatherings.”

What does Benedict XVI want to accomplish, giving new force back to the liturgy?

“The Pope wants to offer the possibility of arriving at the wonder of life in Christ, a life that in the very living here on earth already leads us to sense the freedom and the eternity belonging to the children of God. And this kind of experience is lived powerfully through an authentic renewal of the faith which presupposes a foretaste of the heavenly reality in the liturgy one believes in, one celebrates and one lives. The Church is, and must become, the powerful instrument and the means for this liberating liturgical experience. And it is her liturgy that makes it possible to spark such an experience in her faithful”. **

wdtprs.com/blog/2008/07/cdws-archbp-ranjith-on-pope-benedicts-plan-with-the-liturgy/
 
If there is only one ad orientem Mass offered in one parish in the world each year, then versus populum is not being used exclusively in a global sense, but it may as well be since I don’t own a plane. And just as this is so, if it is not offered in a single parish in my entire town then it is equally exclusive. This is very important as it is how I can worship, and it is this personal contact with the sacraments which is often ignored to make what I see as a comparatively trivial point about what is being done in another country.
Hang on. I have never met the Pope, I know he exists, but only by report. I know his predecessors existed as well, and went to a Mass celebrated by JP2, but I’ve never even seen a photo of any other Pope who existed more than 150 years ago as evidence of their existence. Does that mean the Popes apart from JP2 ‘might as well not’ have existed, merely because I haven’t personally seen or met them? Of course not. Their very existence affects me even if I don’t personally meet them, no? And their effect on me even in their physical absence is far from ‘trivial’.

If every Mass is, as we are constantly being reminded, a re-presentation of THE sacrifice of Calvary, in that sense they are all interrelated, no? Each is united with all the others that have ever been. So the ad orientem Masses currently being said affect you and your Mass. And their effect is far from ‘trivial’.
Well, I don’t think .001% of Masses is something being done “universally.” Further, I think we cannot ignore that every Mass is universal. The Masses I have available here are universal, just as yours are. And if we have rights as Catholics to licit Masses, or even the EF, then it should apply to all everywhere, which is also universal, and not just a few in a few places. And I find the best way to approach that is to look at what we have to live with, and what we can see and do in our churches, and not try to look at the Church or her Mass as a statistical discussion.
Every Catholic has a right to a valid Mass. Some who have this right nonetheless cannot HAVE a valid Mass - or any Mass for that matter, for many reasons including such things as living or travelling in a very remote location.

If those people want their right indulged, then they are going to have to move or at least travel to a place where they can access a Mass, because it’s unreasonable to expect the Vatican or local Catholic dioceses and parishes to send priests out specifically to cater for people in such situations when they are so badly underresourced already.

You may possibly have a ‘right’ to the EF - if there are at least a few other people in your parish who want one as well. You too, for different reasons, cannot currently have that EF. Lack of priests trained in the TLM, for one thing, may be a perfectly legitimate reason for it to be denied you. In the same way as our traveller or remote dweller, you can either travel or move to a place where you can get your EF or do without.

And likewise it is unreasonable to expect the Pope or your bishop to manufacture a TLM out of thin air for you when most of them are hard put to it getting ANY priest to many parishioners who need one.
Maybe, I don’t know. None of this has happened here. Nothing has changed in fifteen years here that I can tell, unless a priest has died and the next one was more liberal, or less liberal, or some such. But nothing indicitave of a general shift has been evident at all. Hearing that you or somebody else can go to a million different types of Masses doesn’t mean much to us in the trenches, that I can tell you. Here things continue on and not once has any document from the Holy Father, whether it be SP or an encyclical, ever been mentioned by any representative of the Church. I have never heard anything in the pulpit, or from the Bishop (excepting his statement that SP wasn’t allowed to be implemented here and that was online and not to any of us in the diocese) that referred to anything from Pope Benedict. Discussions about what the Church is doing here or there simply cannot trump what I see everyday. That is Church to me, and it should be to all of us.
If you feel your bishop has wrongly denied you your TLM, complain to Ecclesia Dei. If you’ve read Summorum Pontificum (and having access to the internet there’s no excuse for you not to have done so if you are so keen on having a TLM) you’ll know that you have the right to do so.

If you have cable TV or broadband internet you can also access the TLMs that are broadcast on EWTN. If you don’t, you can obtain DVDs or videos from them of the TLMs they have broadcast in the past. There are multiple videos of complete TLMs available on youtube that you can watch right now, for free.

You are not ‘in the trenches’, it’s a laughable idea that anyone who can access a computer and the internet knows real deprivation in most any sense of the word. You are not without the ability to experience a TLM, so go ahead and experience it!
 
Hang on. I have never met the Pope, I know he exists, but only by report. … Does that mean the Popes apart from JP2 ‘might as well not’ have existed, merely because I haven’t personally seen or met them?
Analagies are useful, but here you are deflecting from the point. I never suggested that the Pope is trivial, or that the Mass is. I have said that the Mass is not a theoretical device, but a real participation by the people with Christ. What happens thousands of miles from me will not make a difference to me. Yes, it is good that it is happening, and hopefully it will continue to happen in more and more places, but until it is happening here it is only a theoretical point in my life. Arguments about how much makes something less than exclusive is less useful, IMHO, than what happens to real people.
If every Mass is, as we are constantly being reminded, a re-presentation of THE sacrifice of Calvary, in that sense they are all interrelated, no? Each is united with all the others that have ever been. So the ad orientem Masses currently being said affect you and your Mass. And their effect is far from ‘trivial’.
Yes, and no. It matters to the degree I have said above, but not to that which you seem to be suggesting. If you happened to live in a town in which every parish offered nothing but grossly illicit Masses, but there were licit Masses in another country, would that make your situation better? Not as a practical matter since you still suffer under the abuse, though it may bode well for future change, but that is purely hypothetical.
Every Catholic has a right to a valid Mass.
I may be wrong but I believe the Church also maintains every Catholic has a right to a licit Mass as well.
Some who have this right nonetheless cannot HAVE a valid Mass - or any Mass for that matter, for many reasons including such things as living or travelling in a very remote location.
If those people want their right indulged, then they are going to have to move or at least travel to a place where they can access a Mass, because it’s unreasonable to expect the Vatican or local Catholic dioceses and parishes to send priests out specifically to cater for people in such situations when they are so badly underresourced already.
Well, I think you are taking a view which pushes the issue to its furthest extreme. I don’t live in such a place, and this is a fairly populous diocese. Many Catholics live in a populated area with Catholic presence and have to do without proper Masses due to disobedient bishops or priests or any number of things. They need access to valid and licit Masses just as you have, and if they don’t get them I just don’t think your situation really affects them directly.
You may possibly have a ‘right’ to the EF - if there are at least a few other people in your parish who want one as well. You too, for different reasons, cannot currently have that EF. Lack of priests trained in the TLM, for one thing, may be a perfectly legitimate reason for it to be denied you. In the same way as our traveller or remote dweller, you can either travel or move to a place where you can get your EF or do without.
Yes, in some cases that may be so, but it doesn’t make your case. What is the case in Budapest doesn’t change what happens here. It is good that it is so for them if it is better, but that doesn’t really change the case for those living with abuse or without certain options that would be beneficial. Consider the ad orientem question. Does that need training? No. So, it isn’t even covered by this view, and yet I have never seen it even once. And so as far as the people of this town are concerned it doesn’t exist.
And likewise it is unreasonable to expect the Pope or your bishop to manufacture a TLM out of thin air for you when most of them are hard put to it getting ANY priest to many parishioners who need one.
Yes it may be. But that doesn’t mean that if one exists where you live that it makes my lack somehow different. If your gain affects me, as you have suggested above, then my loss affects you equally and you are back to square one.
If you feel your bishop has wrongly denied you your TLM, complain to Ecclesia Dei. If you’ve read Summorum Pontificum (and having access to the internet there’s no excuse for you not to have done so if you are so keen on having a TLM) you’ll know that you have the right to do so.
If you have gotten the impression that I am “so keen on having a TLM” I fear you have misunderstood me. I would love to see one here, because it seems to me that the Holy Father wants one available for all. I think he sees this as beneficial to the whole Church, and so I support it. However, I have not pursued getting one, and am not personally suffering under the loss. I simply see it as a fact that my bishop has chosen to obstruct the Holy Father’s will on this, and that has affected people in this diocese. When I read on this forum I am always forced to consider how traditionally minded Catholics in this area must feel being treated as red-headed stepchildren by their ordinary. I think people here don’t consider their neighbour when they celebrate their own blessings, and since I have any number of Masses in my preferred form I can’t help but feel bad for those who have absolutely none at all. And I just don’t agree that the fact that your bishop may allow you to have them makes these people here any better off.
You are not ‘in the trenches’, it’s a laughable idea that anyone who can access a computer and the internet knows real deprivation in most any sense of the word. You are not without the ability to experience a TLM, so go ahead and experience it!
Wrong, wrong, wrong. How can you say this? You should know better as I have read your posts on this forum for a long time and know you are not that ignorant. Suggesting that watching a Mass on a computer is the actual equivalent of attending Mass is what is laughable. It is absurd to the point of comedy. If you really want to convince me of your position you will have to take a completely different tack than that.

BTW, when I speak of the trenches I am referring to real life as a Catholic versus a hypothetical one in which we argue about what is good or bad. This is what you or I experience directly day in and day out on a local level. As I see it, you seem to have in mind some idea of a universal Church in opposition to a local one, and I say you are wrong. The Church is always universal and always local. When the Pope teaches it is not so it can be in a library book for people to discuss in ivory towers, it is so that you and I can benefit from a deeper knowledge of the Lord. If a teaching does not get to you or I, ‘in the trenches,’ then it is not effective. That is reality, and it is what I am speaking about. You cannot try to posit a reality where the many share in the blessings of the few and yet ignore that the few surely must share in the suffering of the many.
 
Yes, and no. It matters to the degree I have said above, but not to that which you seem to be suggesting.
In other words you’re happy to complain on here but not happy to spend that same time and energy actually addressing, in a way that just might help, the cause of your complaint.
If you happened to live in a town in which every parish offered nothing but grossly illicit Masses, but there were licit Masses in another country, would that make your situation better?
No, but neither does complaining on here! I’d write my pastor, then write the bishop, write the USCCB, write the Papal Nuncio in the States, and write the Vatican. THAT would be the most likely thing to make my situation (and yours) better.
I may be wrong but I believe the Church also maintains every Catholic has a right to a licit Mass as well.
And if you have NOs which are valid and licit then you’ve got what you have a right to, a valid and licit Mass. If they’re not, then the most pressing need would be to address the abuses within those NOs which affect their liceity.

The EF is icing on the cake - and again you’re wanting a Baskin Robbins church with all thirty-whatever flavours available all the time.
Well, I think you are taking a view which pushes the issue to its furthest extreme. I don’t live in such a place, and this is a fairly populous diocese. Many Catholics live in a populated area with Catholic presence and have to do without proper Masses due to disobedient bishops or priests or any number of things. They need access to valid and licit Masses just as you have, and if they don’t get them I just don’t think your situation really affects them directly.
Yup, that’s when you, as I suggested above, try to get the abuses in the existing NO fixed, via the means I suggested. Pushing for a different form of Mass altogether, one which most priests don’t know how to say and a lot of parishioners won’t want to attend, isn’t going to make the majority of parishioners better off.

In fact it’s not going to make anyone better off other than those comparatively few people who would be both willing and able to attend the (probably one per Sunday at most) Mass that would be offered as a sop - it’s not like the whole diocese or even most whole parishes can attend that one Mass, after all.
Yes, in some cases that may be so, but it doesn’t make your case. What is the case in Budapest doesn’t change what happens here. It is good that it is so for them if it is better, but that doesn’t really change the case for those living with abuse or without certain options that would be beneficial. Consider the ad orientem question. Does that need training? No. So, it isn’t even covered by this view, and yet I have never seen it even once. And so as far as the people of this town are concerned it doesn’t exist.
Versus populum as opposed to ad orientem doesn’t affect either validity or liceity one iota. Again, you’re talking icing on the cake.
If you have gotten the impression that I am “so keen on having a TLM” I fear you have misunderstood me. I would love to see one here, because it seems to me that the Holy Father wants one available for all. I think he sees this as beneficial to the whole Church, and so I support it. However, I have not pursued getting one, and am not personally suffering under the loss. I simply see it as a fact that my bishop has chosen to obstruct the Holy Father’s will on this, and that has affected people in this diocese. When I read on this forum I am always forced to consider how traditionally minded Catholics in this area must feel being treated as red-headed stepchildren by their ordinary.
And I’ve been called a Protestant - and worse - and seen others similarly insulted and abused - for daring, in this forum, to express a slight preference for the OF.
Wrong, wrong, wrong. How can you say this? You should know better as I have read your posts on this forum for a long time and know you are not that ignorant. Suggesting that watching a Mass on a computer is the actual equivalent of attending Mass is what is laughable. It is absurd to the point of comedy. If you really want to convince me of your position you will have to take a completely different tack than that.
Calm down. I wasn’t suggesting it was the same thing at all. I was suggesting it as a stopgap measure. The same as I would suggest to someone who was bedridden and couldn’t get to Mass and missed it that they watch on TV as well. Obviously you’re not going to get an EF in your diocese by Sunday even under the best possible circumstances, so in the meantime you (and others who want one but can’t get it) must just do what they can. 🤷
 
In the next parish to mine I have a sung Latin Mass every Sunday.

In my own, I have the Novus Ordo, with:
  • Extraordinary ministers of communion;
  • Altar girls;
  • Communion in the hand, standing;
  • Versus populum;
  • One of the priests saying “sisters and brothers” instead of “brothers and sisters”;
  • Another inviting people up to the sanctuary just before the end of Mass, if it’s their birthday;
  • Happy clappy hymns.
Guess which one I’ll be going to regularly?

I knelt down to receive communion last time I went to the NO one. It made me uncomfortable; people may have thought I was being a show off, or rebuking them, but if you truly believe Christ is present in the Host, you should do it. On a practical note, I sneeze quite often. I’m not going to hold Him in my snot-covered hands.

God knows where the other worshippers hands have been, never mind the ease with which a host could be palmed and used for horrid purposes later.

It’s these practical things which put me off the NO. The Hierarchy should consider that: what’s the effect it’s having on the ground?.

Is the Novus Ordo killing Catholicism?***: Few vocations, smaller congregations, young people Catholic in name only, mainly old dears at Mass and young women with kids?

A previous poster had it right: the form of the Mass should never have been left to liturgical scholars i.e. mere intellectuals.
 
I may be wrong but I believe the Church also maintains every Catholic has a right to a licit Mass as well.
As the above posts shows, most of the things that traditionalists complain about the Mass are not illicit. They are perfectly acceptable. The biggest complaint is that these things should be illicit, yet aren’t. I guess that’s okay, as we are all entitled to our opinion. Let us not forget, thought that the Church does have the authority to change such things.
 
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