Tredentine Mass Is Our Right

[pnewton]

If you read the Spirit of the Liturgy by Cardinal Ratzinger I think you will get a different perspective than some of the more neo-Cath and disloyal perspectives shared in this thread.

Besides names like “neo-Cath” being against the forum rules, it is a baseless insult. I have complained about it before ane will continue to do so everytime I see it. This tactic of making up names to degrad those different does not address any issue, but rather plays into the ignorance of prejudice.

Besides, anyone familiar with the parable of the prodigal son or the workers of the field knows that God holds those who are new equal to those who have been around. This was the reverse to how the Pharisees believed.

 

[cathguy]

Besides names like “neo-Cath” being against the forum rules, it is a baseless insult. I have complained about it before ane will continue to do so everytime I see it. This tactic of making up names to degrad those different does not address any issue, but rather plays into the ignorance of prejudice.

Besides, anyone familiar with the parable of the prodigal son or the workers of the field knows that God holds those who are new equal to those who have been around. This was the reverse to how the Pharisees believed.

So calling us “trads” and otherwise marginalizing us is okay?

I like my hypocrisy a little less direct.

However, I apologize for any offense given. I only ask people to be loyal to the Holy Father, and stop persecuting those loyal to Catholic tradition.

 

[Walking_Home]

Quote:
Originally Posted by cothrige View Post
“O God, I give thee thanks that I am not as the rest of men, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, as also is this publican traditionalist.”

Be careful what you look forward to. I don’t think the Lord enjoys one of his own celebrating what he sees as the folly of another believer, or looking forward to his condemnation. That you have such contempt for those you disagree with says much more about you than them.

Perfectly said.

---

Ditto –

 

[pnewton]

So calling us “trads” and otherwise marginalizing us is okay?

It is totally wrong for the same reason. You speak rightly when you say that some use such language to marginalize some of the most faithful Catholics in the world. Back to the prodigal son, do you remember the wonderful words that Jesus had for the elder son? Everything the Church has is there for the traditionalists and it is they who treasure them more than some one like me can ever appreciate. Many of the changes over the last half of century has come about to reach out to others outside the Church, welcome home the prodigal, as it were. I think most of the Pharisees did not get the message that the love of the Father for others never diminished His love for the Jews. I believe most treaditionalists, because of the Grace of the Holy Spirit, have not fallen into this pitfall.

Now we have a new problem, as you put it, marginalizing traditionalists. Saying the TLM is a “right” might be a lttle too secular way of wording things, but everyone here who does not prefer the TLM, if he were to follow the law of love, should strive to see that those that do want it get it, even at their own expense. That is what family is supposed to do for each other.

 

[cothrige]

Saying the TLM is a “right” might be a lttle too secular way of wording things, ***but everyone here who does not prefer the TLM, if he were to follow the law of love, should strive to see that those that do want it get it, even at their own expense. *** That is what family is supposed to do for each other.

I wish to second this point above heartily.

Patrick

 

[Layman]

It is curious. Why would anyone block or object to the TLM?

It’s one thing to be pro the NO. It’s another to stop or impede people wanting a valid Mass. Especially with falling church attendance.

I don’t know how common it is. A London bishop did it, then allowed it after Easter.

What is the reasoning, or the rationale?

 

[cathguy]

It is totally wrong for the same reason. You speak rightly when you say that some use such language to marginalize some of the most faithful Catholics in the world. Back to the prodigal son, do you remember the wonderful words that Jesus had for the elder son? Everything the Church has is there for the traditionalists and it is they who treasure them more than some one like me can ever appreciate. Many of the changes over the last half of century has come about to reach out to others outside the Church, welcome home the prodigal, as it were. I think most of the Pharisees did not get the message that the love of the Father for others never diminished His love for the Jews. I believe most treaditionalists, because of the Grace of the Holy Spirit, have not fallen into this pitfall.

Now we have a new problem, as you put it, marginalizing traditionalists. Saying the TLM is a “right” might be a lttle too secular way of wording things, but everyone here who does not prefer the TLM, if he were to follow the law of love, should strive to see that those that do want it get it, even at their own expense. That is what family is supposed to do for each other.

Good points. Thanks.

 

[LilyM]

It is curious. Why would anyone block or object to the TLM?

It’s one thing to be pro the NO. It’s another to stop or impede people wanting a valid Mass. Especially with falling church attendance.

I don’t know how common it is. A London bishop did it, then allowed it after Easter.

What is the reasoning, or the rationale?

Since when does ‘a valid Mass’ = TLM? The Pauline Mass, per the Holy Father, is perfectly valid if celebrated without abuses.

By the way, the people attending TLM would tend to be those who are serious about their Sunday obligation and who would currently attend the Pauline Mass if TLM is not available to them.

Broadening the TLM will see a shift in population between the attendees of the former and the latter, but don’t place yourself under the illusion that there will be much if any of an overall increase in Mass attendance of all types.

How about we spend at least as much time and energy concentrating on the problem closest to hand, even for most TLM afficionados, which is eliminating abuses from our local Pauline Masses, as we do stamping our feet and demanding our TLM ‘rights’.

 

[ethelzguy]

Takes a certain type of mind to degrade the upholding of the hierarchical/authoritative nature of the Church.

You seem to enjoy following me around. Glad I’m able to entertain you.

 

[ProVobis]

You are in my prayers
Prayers & blessings
Deacon Ed B

Deacon, I can’t make up my mind whether this is more condescending or arrogance on your part. If you have something to say, then I wish you’d say it. It hasn’t stopped you before.

Having said that, I guess I probably deserved it. Just like my parking ticket this morning for stopping by church for a few minutes.

 

[ProVobis]

Since when does ‘a valid Mass’ = TLM? The Pauline Mass, per the Holy Father, is perfectly valid if celebrated without abuses.

Last I heard they are both valid, with or without abuses, “for many” or “for all.” Matter, form, intention, validly ordained priest. Same rules.

 

[cathguy]

True, but the question is did they change such things? Was it the Church or was it some one Pope that decided to restructure the whole Mass? Or to change it into a Meal? Was it the Church or was it some error-prone ICEL committee to tell us Christ really meant to say “for all” in the consecration? Was it the Church or some self-serving geniuses to tell us that Latin and Gregorian chant were to be abolished? Or that communion rails be razed? Or that confessionals and statues and candles should be dumped into the landfills? Or to attempt to ban forever the other arts and treasures and practices of the Church? I don’t think it was the Church at all, do you?

First of all, ProVobis, allow me to compliment your zeal and say that I sympathize with your condemnation of the abuses you mention.

BUT for one thing you mention, the Church DID do these things. The restructuring of the Mass came from the hierarchy: Pope, down to Bishops, down to Priests. That is a fact.

The other things you mention are all abuses and are, ultimately, due to a rejection of the letter of Vatican II and also are due to a prideful refusal to read that council in the light of the larger Catholic tradition.

Unless I am misreading you (this is possible) there is a subtle danger to your post in that it could lead to a subtle form of Donatism, a heresy that taught a pure Church. In its most common form it taught that unless the priest or Bishop were pure, the Sacraments he offered were invalid.

It seems to me you are saying that the Church could not have done these awful things because the Church is pure. Rather, its the priests, Bishops, and a Pope who did them.

As Catholics we do not believe in a pure Church. The Church is the Bride of Christ, warts and all. It is a miracle of God’s love that with all of our warts, God wants to marry us anyway. But that is the Church!

On the human side of things the Church can be very ugly indeed. The spirit that lead to the liturgical deformations (and ultimately deformations in true Catholic worship) really has wrought havoc. (to say nothing of the other more serious scandal!)

But I think there is a danger in claiming that the Church did not do these things. She, in fact, did. And She remains the Church.

 

[Miles_Mariae]

LilyM:

Since when does ‘a valid Mass’ = TLM? The Pauline Mass, per the Holy Father, is perfectly valid if celebrated without abuses.

He said “[it’s another thing] to stop people wanting a valid mass”. This implies directly that TLM is a valid mass. He doesn’t say that it’s the only valid mass - neither directly nor indirectly, especially since immediately preceding this, he doesn’t condemn those who are “pro NO”.

When in doubt, assume that the author does not mean to offend.

 

[cathguy]

As I attended Mass last night and this morning, I couldn’t help but wonder how barren and empty it must feel for those who attend in a hyper-critical state…watching and listening for any little thing to be offended by.

I wondered how it must feel to attend Mass in a frame of mind that so freely asserted one’s “right” for “this or that” before Almighty God.

As I watched and listened to the Priest say Mass, and the Deacon give the Homily, I couldn’t help but wonder WHY. Why would these good men dedicate their lives to people who could find little to nothing good about what they do to serve?

:nope:

This post is terrible and judgemental.

I am a traditionalist. If the NO Mass I am attending is poorly done, I pray. I focus on the Eucharist. I focus my attention on the tabernacle (this is of course easier if it is IN THE RIGHT PLACE).

But I do not sit there are critique. I focus on Christ and try to block out the distractions. If its the woman in the mini skirt or short shorts in the pew ahead of me, I try to ignore and focus on Christ. If its the banal music, I try to ignore (or even participate) and offer it up to Christ. If its a horrible milquetoast homily I focus on what the priest is saying and interpret it in the most orthodox way possible.

This is what MOST traditionalists do. However, we advocate. We advocate for a return to the Church’s traditions.

This is how you sound: “Oh Lord, I pray in thanksgiving that I am not like that traditionalist.”

Think about THAT passage in scripture.

 

[Miles_Mariae]

Alright, cathguy, drop the act. Let’s just admit that we’re clinging to our guns and religion because we’re bitter people. We aren’t foolin’ ethelz.

 

[Brennan_Doherty]

An “opinion” which takes the words of a long-since deceased Pope out of context hardly trumps Rome where the Mass is concerned.

Threads where people rant about their “rights” before God and His Church on Earth amuse me no end.

Out of context? Have you read Mediator Dei?

1. …Just as obviously unwise and mistaken is the zeal of one who in matters liturgical would go back to the rites and usage of antiquity, discarding the new patterns introduced by disposition of divine Providence to meet the changes of circumstances and situation.

vatican.va/holy_father/pius_xii/encyclicals/documents/hf_p-xii_enc_20111947_mediator-dei_en.html

 

[cathguy]

Alright, cathguy, drop the act. Let’s just admit that we’re clinging to our guns and religion because we’re bitter people. We aren’t foolin’ ethelz.

 

[CassiusLonginus]

I see ethelzguy blathering about how hilarious it is that EF attendees “attempt” to “claim” their “rights”…Another example of OF-style humor I guess…hilarious (right tim?).

Just realize that the faithful have the exact same ‘right’ in regard to attending the EF as they do the OF. There ya go! It’s your ‘right’ to attend the OF, and it’s my ‘right’ to attend the EF. Now go ahead and whine about rights.

Another thing from this thread also struck me. On one of the first pages ConsumedConvert (I think), in regard to people from multiple parishes petitioning for an EF at just one church said:

It’s important that we don’t make things ligistically difficult or impossible for our Priests

Actually, they have to accomodate the faithful, not the other way around. Besides, they are the ones who have truly been making things “logistically difficult and impossible” for decades for the faithful. The faithful have always had the same RIGHT to have the TLM as OF-goers have to the OF. It would only be just to right previous wrongs and make it as easy as possible for the faithful who desire it, instead of suggesting they all get together at only one parish close by with all the other EF people. Why should I have to go to a different church to get another form of the same rite? For instance, my mom’s church is two blocks from her house. She wouldn’t want to go several miles to the next church in order to go to the TLM. She’d want it at her church…two blocks away. Is this unfair to want, considering she has the same right to both versions of the Mass?

That almost-accomplished tragedy, the descent into disuse of the EF, was accomplished by deception of the hierarchy to begin with. That’s why EF people are still wary of a lot of OF clergy…They are unwilling to do their job, their duty in justice and charity. The EF was never abrogated, therefore the faithful have always had that right to it. Also, priests who wanted to celebrate it were told they couldn’t. Deception again. Those are two points that trads have been making for years and years, while people ‘in communion with Rome’ have constantly castigated and told they were wrong, schismatic, etc.

It’s time for a little justice and good-will on the part of those who ought to be trying to get as many souls as possible to heaven. Let’s get as many TLMs into as many parishes as possible. It will do a lot of good anyway. The people at the TLM and the good people at the OF will help counter-balance the luke-warm.

Yes, the tridentine is our right as much, and in the exact same way, as is the OF.

 

[Sacerdotalis]

You nor anyone else has a “right” to any form of the liturgy if it first is not given by our Lord. The Lord did not call us specifically to a stuff-shirted liturgy that 98% of the people cannot understand. The Lord called us to first and foremost LOVE ONE ANOTHER. The division formed by those who shove the EXTRAORDINARY form down peoples throats is destroying the fabric of our Catholic faith and creating rival camps. If you don’t see this then you must be blinded by your gold lame vestments and birettas. I don’t think the Novus Ordo is perfect either - the typical parish has a long ways to go in learning solemn, reverent implementation of this rite. But to just flush 40 years of reform down the toilet because you think you have right to something is immature and narcissistic. I would suggest looking at your motiviation and making sure it isn’t yourself.

 

[Sacerdotalis]

nowholdonjustasecond…

1. The Mass is never ever our “right.”
2. You are in the Catholic Church. This ain’t no democracy. Our rights come from the top–through the hierarchy–down.
3. Before Pope Benedict liberalized the Extraordinary Form of the Holy Mass, if your bishop did not grant an indult, then you had about as much “right” to the EF as I have to the Sarum Rite or Chaldean Rite Mass.

I never thought of the Catholic Church as a place where we wine about our “rights,” but rather as a place to worship Christ. Perhaps it’s time to remember that Mass is his–is about Him–not about us. If we can’t worship Him–in any approved use of any approved rite–then perhaps we need to look inward.

FINALLY someone with a head on their shoulders. These people scare me - the liturgy becomes about themselves and everyone else can just go to hell. I don’t think the novus ordo is perfect, but falling back into the past isn’t a solution - it’s a chicken-butt way of retreating from the future.