Tredentine Mass Is Our Right

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Okay, then let me point out that one can argue with this without contradicting the Pope. First, there was no papal statement. A cardinal spoke what he thought was the opinion of the Holy Father in a newspaper interview. Do you know on how many levels this is wrong? The Cardinal could be mistaken. The context could be absent so as to give it a certain slant. Or the facts and quotes could flat be wrong. I remember a similar article when this came out and another paper reported it as all parishes in England.

I will stick to what the Holy Father actually said. He specified in which parishes it should be instituted. No journalist or Cardinal intervened in delivering the message.
Never said I had a quote from the Pope. Sorry you can’t take the Cardinal’s word for it.
Or journalist. Then again the Cardinal could be mistaken. He did not quote the Holy Father, after all.
 
The folks who tell me that the liturgy I attend isn’t the “true liturgy” - the same people who shove the X-Form down my throat - the same people who think wearing a biretta makes them holier than thou.
I suppose they’re also forcing to you to go to the EF?
 
I suppose they’re also forcing to you to go to the EF?
No, because I have a mind and a will. But when I speak of something relating to the Novus Ordo they roll their eyes and say things like “that’s not the real liturgy” or “you’re not going to find salvation in that.”
 
I suppose they’re also forcing to you to go to the EF?
Might I suggest reading my post “The Battle Between the XForm and Novus Ordo” which I posted tonight. It will give you a better understanding of my position. I don’t hate X_Formers, but I also don’t appreciate being told what I appreciate is wrong.
 
No, because I have a mind and a will. But when I speak of something relating to the Novus Ordo they roll their eyes and say things like “that’s not the real liturgy” or “you’re not going to find salvation in that.”
Who cares what they think? Why get so worked up as to rant about it on a public forum?
 
No, because I have a mind and a will. But when I speak of something relating to the Novus Ordo they roll their eyes and say things like “that’s not the real liturgy” or “you’re not going to find salvation in that.”
Is that before or after you call them arrogant narcissists, throw a hissy fit, and make assertions that you have no intention of backing?

I have a feeling you want to say “after”, but you’ve done these things to us and I’m fairly sure no one on this board has told you that the NO is “not the real liturgy” or that “you’re not going to find salvation” in it.
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Walking_Home View Post​

It was from an interview with Card. Castrillon Hoyos

wdtprs.com/blog/2008/05/holy-…ss-everywhere/

According to the Catholic News Agency, Cardinal Dario Castrillon Hoyos, head of the Pontifical Commission
Ecclesia Dei, let the cat out of the bag in an interview for a DVD instructing priests on how to celebrate the Extraordinary Form.

Here’s the money quote: “The cardinal said that parishes and priests should make available the Extraordinary Form so that ‘everyone may have access to this treasure of the ancient liturgy of the Church’. He also stressed that, ‘even if it is not specifically asked for, or requested’ it should be provided. Interestingly, he added that the Pope wants this Mass to become normal in parishes, so that ‘young communities can also become familiar with this rite’.”

Right - so unless Hoyos was made Pope yesterday then this isn’t the POPE saying this.

I am not about to say the Card was making up fibs.
 
Might I suggest reading my post “The Battle Between the XForm and Novus Ordo” which I posted tonight. It will give you a better understanding of my position. I don’t hate X_Formers, but I also don’t appreciate being told what I appreciate is wrong.
And I’ve said that you shouldn’t throw blanket statements over everybody that prefers the EF. Show some respect.
 
And I’ve said that you shouldn’t throw blanket statements over everybody that prefers the EF. Show some respect.
When I’m respected for my beliefs and preferences I will begin respecting those who think they have a right to impose their personal needs on me.
 
Might I suggest reading my post “The Battle Between the XForm and Novus Ordo” which I posted tonight. It will give you a better understanding of my position. I don’t hate X_Formers, but I also don’t appreciate being told what I appreciate is wrong.
And yet your article makes blanketed assertions about traditionalists and that’s acceptable?

The irony. But at least its good to hear that you don’t “hate” them. I was hoping it wouldn’t get to that point.
 
The Cardinal said the Pope said. If you don’t believe the Cardinal then fine.
I really don’t want to get involved in this thread at this point. It appears to be attracting trolls. However, I will make this one comment. In addition to the Cardinal saying that this was the will of the Holy Father we do have to remember what this Cardinal’s jurisdiction is. He is the head of PCED, which is the competent and relevant authority on matters relating to the Traditional Mass. This means that just as in the past when Cardinal Ratzinger spoke on matters of doctrine and faith, when this Cardinal speaks on matters relating to this form of the liturgy he speaks with the full authority of Rome. This is not gossip. He is not spreading rumors. He is acting with the office he has which has competence on this matter, and to question his view regarding the extent of use of the EF would be identical to question the statements of Cardinal Ratzinger when he was head of the CDF. And in both statements you would be rejecting the word of Rome. Those who think that they can question or doubt the word of competent authorities in Rome on matters they have jurisdiction over, just because the Pope didn’t personally sign the statement, will likely have little hope of satisfaction.
 
I really don’t want to get involved in this thread at this point. It appears to be attracting trolls. However, I will make this one comment. In addition to the Cardinal saying that this was the will of the Holy Father we do have to remember what this Cardinal’s jurisdiction is. He is the head of PCED, which is the competent and relevant authority on matters relating to the Traditional Mass. This means that just as in the past when Cardinal Ratzinger spoke on matters of doctrine and faith, when this Cardinal speaks on matters relating to this form of the liturgy he speaks with the full authority of Rome. This is not gossip. He is not spreading rumors. He is acting with the office he has which has competence on this matter, and to question his view regarding the extent of use of the EF would be identical to question the statements of Cardinal Ratzinger when he was head of the CDF. And in both statements you would be rejecting the word of Rome. Those who think that they can question or doubt the word of competent authorities in Rome on matters they have jurisdiction over, just because the Pope didn’t personally sign the statement, will likely have little hope of satisfaction.
Please forgive my ignorance but how does a response to a question put by a journalist and included in a newspaper article bear any resemblance to the Cardinal acting in his official capacity? If he made the same statement in an official document bearing the name of his dicastery then I would agree that it had weight and would in all likelihood be with the full consent and approval of Pope Benedict and no one ought to reject it.
Cardinal Hoyos may know the Pope’s mind on the matter but questioning what he said to a journalist is definitely not the same thing as rejecting the word of Rome.
 
You nor anyone else has a “right” to any form of the liturgy if it first is not given by our Lord. The Lord did not call us specifically to a stuff-shirted liturgy that 98% of the people cannot understand. The Lord called us to first and foremost LOVE ONE ANOTHER. The division formed by those who shove the EXTRAORDINARY form down peoples throats is destroying the fabric of our Catholic faith and creating rival camps. If you don’t see this then you must be blinded by your gold lame vestments and birettas. I don’t think the Novus Ordo is perfect either - the typical parish has a long ways to go in learning solemn, reverent implementation of this rite. But to just flush 40 years of reform down the toilet because you think you have right to something is immature and narcissistic. I would suggest looking at your motiviation and making sure it isn’t yourself.
Shoved down people’s throats? I don’t know when this has ever happened…oh wait, after Vatican II and the “introduction” of the Novus Ordo. Now I remember.

Forty years, yes, that’s quite a long time.

I actually agree with your point about different camps. Here’s a quote Fr. Brian Harrison made in the book, “The Reform of the Reform?” by Fr. Thomas Kocik (Ignatius Press) I’m sure you’ll love. Italics are his:

"In short, what we have witnessed in these thirty years has been a tragic polarization and fragmentation among Catholics, in regard to the liturgy. But while so many have been drawing swords either to defend or attack the post-conciliar changes in the rite of Mass, not many seem to have noticed that the very existence of such tension, bitterness, and division is about the most eloquent possible evidence that the liturgical reform introduced in the name of Vatican Council II has been seriously defective. What both liberals and conservatives often forget is the fact that, in the words of Saint Thomas Aquinas, "The Eucharist is the sacrament of the Church’s unity.

… The implications of this profound truth for the post-Vatican II liturgical reform seem to me very serious. If one of the main purposes of the eucharistic liturgy is to “renew, strengthen, and deepen” [CCC 1396] the unity of all Catholics in the one Mystical Body, then what are we to think of a reform that, whatever its positive results may have been, has also managed to provoke more discord, mutual alienation, and disunity than any officially introduced liturgical innovation in the entire history of the Church?

… Now, can the new rites be said to have promoted “unity” [Sacrosanctum Concilium (SC) no. 1] among believers, when we see more strife and disunity than ever in connection with the liturgy?

(pp. 154-157)

thechristianactivist.com/vol8/V8Crisis.htm
 
FINALLY someone with a head on their shoulders. These people scare me - the liturgy becomes about themselves and everyone else can just go to hell. I don’t think the novus ordo is perfect, but falling back into the past isn’t a solution - it’s a chicken-butt way of retreating from the future.
Yes, because of course people who advocate for the TLM really don’t want to confront the world out there, that’s why they advocate it. I mean, what better way to just blend into American culture than with a centuries old liturgy focusing on the sacrifice of Christ on the cross? And the Latin and Gregorian chant only helps, along with the hierarchical nature of the rite and the separation of the sexes. Yes, us fearful Catholics can just huddle with our TLM and hope no one notices us.

Plus we have the awful failure over the centuries of the Gregorian rite–I mean hardly any nations were converted or societies tranformed when that was in place! So why even think about going back to it again?!

I mean, I know one music conservatory had switched from using Mozart to Britney Spears as their main course of study. And now they’re thinking of switching back to Mozart!!! What idiots! I’m going to make sure I give them a piece of my mind!
 
No one’s answered my question: Why block the 1962 Latin Mass?

If it’s valid, and people are (gasp!) enthusiastic about it, why not let them have it?

It’s strange, don’t you think?

I think if we could penetrate to the true core of the objection, it would be very enlightening.

Let me be direct; if the Adversary wished to harm the Church, what better way than to whisper in some prelates ears to:
  • Dump the prayers to St. Michael,
  • Dump the Aspersion;
  • Cause the priest to turn his back to the tabernacle;
  • Play down references to Hell and Satan.
Then let there arise a Mass that focuses more on the celebrant and the participation of the congregation, than Him to whom the worship should be directed.

No need to destroy it. Just water it down, and let it wither away with indifference.

Come Sunday, you’ll have a few bright-eyed enthusiasts who like the conviviality of the NO and a few old dears trying to prepare for their mortal end, while the unwed young bucks and lassies are at home in bed having a lie-in.

PS: To those worried about all the reforms being wasted, I say that whenever I hear the words ‘modernisation’, ‘reform’, or ‘progress’ I figuratively gird my loins, because I know someone’s going to get it in the neck, and it could be me.

The words ‘modernisation’, ‘reform’, and ‘progress’ in themselves do not necessarily bode anything good.

In fact, in the deceitful language of modern business, they usually mean sackings and a degradation or curtailment of service.

e.g. They’ve been ‘reforming’ the education system here in the UK for the past 30+ years, and it’s gone so well you now have university students who can’t write properly or do basic math.
 
Out of context? Have you read Mediator Dei?
  1. …Just as obviously unwise and mistaken is the zeal of one who in matters liturgical would go back to the rites and usage of antiquity, discarding the new patterns introduced by disposition of divine Providence to meet the changes of circumstances and situation.
Hilarious. I used that exact quote as my signature for my first 500 posts or so. It plugs right into the pre/post/Vatican II debate. 👍
 
In our case, I hardly think 40 years ago is antiquity.

Regardless, the 1962 Latin Mass is valid, so let be freely available, without impediment.

The Novus Ordo has been bowdlerised, and should not be celebrated the way most priests are currently doing it.
 
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