Tree of Life

[FCEGM]

Hi
So you mean there are no specific verses of GodAllahYHWH in OT/NTBible protecting these books from additions or taking away something from them. So it was logical for the writer of Revelation to mention a warning in this regard, according to some only to cover his book, not the rest of books collected together and bound in to be called NTBible.
So the authority of Church unless it would have been mentioned clearly in so many words seems vulnerable, and in my opinion only a made up story by the church to establish its hegemony over the followers. I think it is not more than that, and that might be the reason of Luther protesting against it.

There is/was no need for a passage of Scripture to mention a warning about adding or deleting in order to maintain its integrity (as you thought was the intent of the line from the Apocalypse of St. John) as a whole. This task is given to the Church, the extension of Christ’s Incarnation in time and place. In this way He protects His Self-revelation to His Body, the Church, not only in the words of Sacred Scripture but also in the Sacred Tradition handed down to the Apostles (which preceded Scripture and canonized it). This article may be helpful for you to come to some understanding of this:

bringyou.to/apologetics/a46.htm

A brief excerpt:

That Man’s [Jesus’s] knowledge and experience is extended to the Church from Pentecost on. The ecclesiological point follows from and is caused by the Christological: that Man’s personal knowledge and experience, God the Creator and Redeemer. The Church as the prolongation of that Man’s knowledge and experience is preserved from error by the One Who so prolongs it in objective ways so that even though individually each member of the Magisterium is fallible a united teaching and sacramental life is kept infallible (no problem for God to do!), so that the victory of that Man over sin and death and error is not defeated in practice in the Church as a whole (otherwise we either have a pretty weak God or we have God operating exactly as in the Old Testament with no improvement in the New and Eternal Covenant in Christ’s Incarnate Redemption). The Incarnation changes everything; it changes the nature of the Covenant. While the entire priesthood could go awry in the Old Covenant, since the Incarnation of God among His People He won’t allow it; there’s an improvement in the union of God with and among His People over and above the prior covenant.

 

[Ani_Ibi]

There is no harm in having information

There is harm in fooling oneself. There is also harm in attempting to fool others. There is harm in refusing to look at the evidence.

 

[BelFarfalla]

I don’t think you are so fragile to convert. There is no harm in having information, it does not harm anybody. If you get convinced with the rational arguments then of course you can get converted, otherwise no compulsion.

There is harm in people spreading mistruths and outright lies. Many people do not have the time to research every little bit of information they are given. So they accept it as the truth. This is the aspect of porpaganda that people like you are trying to take advantage of.
For example you gave the example of the JW’s who told you that the Bible cannot change. So in your self righteousness you showed them that the are differences between the Protestant ‘Bible and the Catholic Bible. This was probably you parroting something that you were told by those who want you to believe that Christianity is flawed and false.
You left out ‘the rest of the story’… you left out the truth and perpetrated a lie. The le you perpetrated is that the Bible is altered and an authentic one does not exist.
Now either you did this out of ignorance or in an attempt to purposefully mislead the Jws.
You left out that the verse you quoted allies only to the book of Revelations. You left out that Jesus and God have assured that the His word would be protected through all time. You left out that the Catholic Church was tasked with the keeping of the Bible for all time. You left out that the Bible has not been altered since its creation.
So your ‘information’ was very flawed and therefore very harmful.

 

[paarsurrey]

There is harm

Hi
Please don’t be sentimental, you remain steadfast on what you think is truth, no copulsion in matters of religion. You only have to give argument based on rationality, reasoning, revelation and logic and convince others.
May GodAllahYHWH bless you and make you understand things in the true perspective; that is the intention.
I respect your religion/faith/denomination.
Thanks
I am an Ahmadi – a peaceful faith in Islam bridging gaps between faiths/denominations/religions/agnostics

 

[paarsurrey]

There is harm

Hi
I wish to inform you that this topic was started by the JWs themselves, in the very first place I did not start it, they started it. Second , I think, I myself did not know what would be the outcome, by the grace of GodAllahYHWH, the result stunned them.
They came after a week or so, and said very apologetically, that we are sorry, the addition of the **six books **( now a friend in the forum has mentioned that it is increaded to some **13/14 **books) has been done by the Catholics by a mistake, while binding the books in sometimes in history, they bound these extra books with the genuine ones. So they put the blame on the Catholics. I said it is wrong and immoral on your part to put the blame on Catholics while there is no Catholic here to defend his position. I think, and you would also agree that I was reasonable.
Thanks
I am an Ahmadi – a peaceful faith in Islam bridging gaps between faiths/denominations/religions/agnostics

 

[BelFarfalla]

I wish to inform you that this topic was started by the JWs themselves, in the very first place I did not start it, they started it. Second , I think, I myself did not know what would be the outcome, by the grace of GodAllahYHWH, the result stunned them.

Well I’m glad to hear that you did not try to set them up but instead you found it out on that day. It was very wrong for the JW’s to send them out without a proper education. The JW’s are a very small group who have very odd ways of doing things. I have studied with them before. I have found that they really do not know their theology nor Christian history very well. This is why I turned away from the idea of converting to JW’s. How sad that these two were sent out to preach and not properly prepared for it.

They came after a week or so, and said very apologetically, that we are sorry, the addition of the **six books **

( now a friend in the forum has mentioned that it is increaded to some **13/14 **books) has been done by the Catholics by a mistake, while binding the books in sometimes in history, they bound these extra books with the genuine ones. So they put the blame on the Catholics. I said it is wrong and immoral on your part to put the blame on Catholics while there is no Catholic here to defend his position. I think, and you would also agree that I was reasonable.
Yes you were very reasonable.
You are right that it was wrong for them to blame Catholics in that way without being about to properly give the Catholic side of the story. But I do not blame them. Once again they were being given incorrect information by people they trusted. That’s sad.
What they told you is very similar to the things that protestants say, but it is incorrect. The Catholic Church is the one who gathered together all of the religious writings of the early Christians and decided what of those writing was inspired by God and what was just good for Christians to read. This was done by a group of learned religious men. The inspired writing were put together in a collection called the bible. It included those books from the very start. After all, as I stated earlier, Jesus taught from those books. Why would the Church throw out the very books that Jesus used? Surely He know what was right.
It was about 1500 years later that the protestant reformers decided to throw out the books because it is those books that most clearly define much of the Catholic and Orthodox doctrine. So the easiest way for them to deny Catholicism was to throw out those books.
So you see, my point is made. Inaccurate information is harmful. Those men now think that Catholics are wrong because they think that Catholics added something to the bible, when it was part of the bible from the very start.

 

[Ani_Ibi]

Hi
Please don’t be sentimental, you remain steadfast on what you think is truth, no copulsion in matters of religion.

Since when is taking the trouble to research and to present logical arguments sentimental? Just because you are not similarly inclined toward research and logic, does not give you the right to so summarily dismiss another point of view just because you do not agree with it.

 

[paarsurrey]

The Catholic Church is the one who gathered together all of the religious writings of the early Christians and decided what of those writing was inspired by God and what was just good for Christians to read. This was done by a group of learned religious men. The inspired writing were put together in a collection called the bible. It included those books from the very start.

Hi
So, it is the **CatholicChurch who gathered together **all of the religious writings of the early Christians and **decided what of those writing was inspired by God **and what was just good for Christians to read.
If one person could make mistakes, then a group of persons could make as many mistakes as there are persons in that group, which could mean innumerable mistakes could be made by the ChurchPeople, so there remains neither a question of Revelation from God nor Inspiration from God from my point of view. The ChurchPeople are never innocent people, they are sinful persons like any person, they are not immune from sins, history is full of that. So, neither GodAllahYHWH is involved in this work, nor JesusYeshuaIssa.It is weird indeed. I think for such reasons the Protestants would have thought to make protest. I am clear about that.
Thanks
I am an Ahmadi – a peaceful faith in Islam bridging gaps between faiths/denominations/religions/agnostics

 

[kellie]

Hi
So, it is the **CatholicChurch who gathered together **all of the religious writings of the early Christians and **decided what of those writing was inspired by God **and what was just good for Christians to read.
If one person could make mistakes, then a group of persons could make as many mistakes as there are persons in that group, which could mean innumerable mistakes could be made by the ChurchPeople, so there remains neither a question of Revelation from God nor Inspiration from God from my point of view. The ChurchPeople are never innocent people, they are sinful persons like any person, they are not immune from sins, history is full of that. So, neither GodAllahYHWH is involved in this work, nor JesusYeshuaIssa.It is weird indeed. I think for such reasons the Protestants would have thought to make protest. I am clear about that.
Thanks
I am an Ahmadi – a peaceful faith in Islam bridging gaps between faiths/denominations/religions/agnostics

We were told by Jesus Himself that the gates of hell would not prevail.

The Books of The Bible which the Catholic Church compiled(there was no other church in these days anyway, only the church that Jesus founded) were compiled with the guidance of the Holy Spirit.

We know men are sinful, but not when guided by the Holy Spirit.

Jesus never sinned. He is God. Your so called prophet sinned however, through warfare.

I have read most of your posts in these forums paarsurrey, and you seem to refuse to give us your true stand, instead you try to make things all seem luvvy duvvy. It don’t work.

There is only one Truth, that is Jesus.

There can be no bridging the gaps as you so claim with all our different religions when we all have different interpretations of what God is, and who Jesus is.

Sorry, but I find most of your posts offensive as they simply gloss over everything, and contain so many errors on Catholicism.

 

[Allweather]

So, neither GodAllahYHWH is involved in this work, nor JesusYeshuaIssa.It is weird indeed. I think for such reasons the Protestants would have thought to make protest. I am clear about that.
Thanks

Unfortunately for your conclusion, paarsurrey, you neglect to observe that the Protestants mostly use ONLY the Bible as a source for information about God, and for development of doctrine. This would be the same Bible our Catholic Church wrote, protected, and canonized about 1500 years before the Protestants came along, and almost 200 years before your prophet was born.

There is no question in any orthodox Protestant’s mind about the authority of the Bible.

So maybe you aren’t as clear about this as you think you are.

 

[BelFarfalla]

Unfortunately for your conclusion, paarsurrey, you neglect to observe that the Protestants mostly use ONLY the Bible as a source for information about God, and for development of doctrine. This would be the same Bible our Catholic Church wrote, protected, and canonized about 1500 years before the Protestants came along, and almost 200 years before your prophet was born.

There is no question in any orthodox Protestant’s mind about the authority of the Bible.

So maybe you aren’t as clear about this as you think you are.

This is correct. In fact, if the Catholic Chruch had not preserved the scripture, it is doubtful that there would be any Christianity, much less any protestants today.

 

[BelFarfalla]

paarsurrey:
So, it is the **CatholicChurch who gathered together **all of the religious writings of the early Christians and **decided what of those writing was inspired by God **and what was just good for Christians to read.
If one person could make mistakes, then a group of persons could make as many mistakes as there are persons in that group, which could mean innumerable mistakes could be made by the ChurchPeople, so there remains neither a question of Revelation from God nor Inspiration from God from my point of view. The ChurchPeople are never innocent people, they are sinful persons like any person, they are not immune from sins, history is full of that. So, neither GodAllahYHWH is involved in this work, nor JesusYeshuaIssa.It is weird indeed. I think for such reasons the Protestants would have thought to make protest. I am clear about that.
And exactly who do you think wrote the Qur’an? PEOPLE. Muhammad did not write it. God did not write it.

When Muhammad died what existed were notes people had made on scraps of wood, leaves, leather… anything they could write on. But most of his followers were illiterate as was Muhammad. So much was in the memory of those who knew him. There is a testament to all this in that Aisha (his child bride) recorded that when she was at his funeral a goat got into her house and ate some of the verses. So these verses have been lost for all time.

The Qur’an was written years after his death. Some say 30 years others say as much as 100- 200. It was written by people who gathered information from the Muslims. By the time of the 3rd Caliph there was so much confusion and so many different versions of the Qur’an (oral and written) that he had his people write a version of the Qur’an that he felt was accurate. The original version exists today and Muslims brag that it is the one and only original version of the Qur’an. The 3rd Caliph then made it punishable by death to have any other version of the Qur’an. However, in Yemen thousands a paper grave of ancient Qur’ans were found in the beams of an ancient Mosque that was being renovated. These date back to the first and second centuries of Islam. Those who have been studying the thousands of codices say that they show an involving Qur’an, with each version changed from the previous.

At best the Qur’an is the work of humans who tried to record what they remembered Muhammad said/did… at worst is it a human document with no inspiration from God at all but only written to support the rulers of the early Caliphates.

 

[paarsurrey]

This is correct. In fact, if the Catholic Chruch had not preserved the scripture, it is doubtful that there would be any Christianity, much less any protestants today.

But alas! in this Catholic and Protestant strife, the original Word of GodAllahYHWH revealed on JesusYeshuaIssa which he used to read himself has been lost.
Thanks
I am an Ahmadi – a peaceful faith in Islam bridging gaps between faiths/denominations/religions/agnostics

 

[Sixtus]

paarsurry posted:

We came to know that there were some six books in the Catholic Urdu Bible which were not to be found in the Protestant Bible.
They became pale and upset and went away.

I am surprized they did not accuse the Catholic Church of adding the extra books to the Protestant bible

 

[pawel15]

But alas! in this Catholic and Protestant strife, the original Word of GodAllahYHWH revealed on JesusYeshuaIssa which he used to read himself has been lost.
Thanks
I am an Ahmadi – a peaceful faith in Islam bridging gaps between faiths/denominations/religions/agnostics

What exactly do u mean of “what Jesus read was lost”, where does this nonsense come from??? I see that you are not very clear in what you write, and we all scratch our heads and try to come to terms to what your true motives are. You presume that we are ignorant and dumb, that the Catholic church is corrupt and the bible is unauthentic to the true word of God.

JW’s is the same as the Islamic faith, a non-christian religion that was devised for the purpose of dividing the already divided world. So what i am trying to say is that the evil one, (may God rebuke him) is behind every conceived division among mankind, even in the catholic church, this does not mean that it’s just the devils fault. Blame is also on people who live on hate, jealousy, anger, confusion and so on.

I actually believe that islam is needed only because it will help to unite christians and to help us to grow in faith and to trust in our Lord Jesus Christ to save us.

To all muslims, Mathew 7.13 "Be on your guard against false prophets; they come to you looking like sheep on the outside, but on the inside they are really like wild wolves. You will know them by what they do. Thornbushes do not bear grapes, and briars do not bear figs. A healthy tree bears good fruit, but a poor tree bears bad fruit. A healthy tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a poor tree cannot bear good fruit. And any tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown in the fire. So then you, you will know the false prophets by what they do.

God Bless

 

[Booklover]

:banghead::banghead: AND :banghead:

paarsurrey,
There is a nice little thread on here i started called Muslim friends, we will NOT convert.
Since you have ignored that particular request, i will lay things straight out on the table for you.
We as Christians BELIEVE Jesus IS THE SON of God.
No matter how many times you claim Jesus as a prophet, we will simply not believe you, cause it is a lie and sinful to reduce the son of God to a mere prophet.
Dont you see, when Muhammed was making up this Islam religion, he couldnt possibly have anyone think there was a more important person than him in history, so he was the one that made up these lies and reduced Jesus to a mere prophet…
And he also made up the lies about him not dying on the cross…actually he wrote a LOT of lies about Jesus…
So paarsurrey, please stop trolling on these boards with trying to convert us… we will listen when you stop trying too…

Muhammad also created a false god, Allah, who is none other than Muhammad himself and who “dictated” the Quran. For more on why Muhammad and Allah are the same see here, here, and this.

Vickie

 

[BelFarfalla]

But alas! in this Catholic and Protestant strife, the original Word of GodAllahYHWH revealed on JesusYeshuaIssa which he used to read himself has been lost.
Thanks
I am an Ahmadi – a peaceful faith in Islam bridging gaps between faiths/denominations/religions/agnostics

Noooooo, the books that Jesus himself read are the Old Testiment. They are the first half of the Bible. And note that we have proof that these have existed unchanged for thousands of years.

The NT is what was added after Jesus, it is the part that tells what the taught etc. These are inspired by God and God promised that the Word would never be lost.

 

[Booklover]

And exactly who do you think wrote the Qur’an? PEOPLE. Muhammad did not write it. God did not write it.

When Muhammad died what existed were notes people had made on scraps of wood, leaves, leather… anything they could write on. But most of his followers were illiterate as was Muhammad. So much was in the memory of those who knew him. There is a testament to all this in that Aisha (his child bride) recorded that when she was at his funeral a goat got into her house and ate some of the verses. So these verses have been lost for all time.

The Qur’an was written years after his death. Some say 30 years others say as much as 100- 200. It was written by people who gathered information from the Muslims. By the time of the 3rd Caliph there was so much confusion and so many different versions of the Qur’an (oral and written) that he had his people write a version of the Qur’an that he felt was accurate. The original version exists today and Muslims brag that it is the one and only original version of the Qur’an. The 3rd Caliph then made it punishable by death to have any other version of the Qur’an. However, in Yemen thousands a paper grave of ancient Qur’ans were found in the beams of an ancient Mosque that was being renovated. These date back to the first and second centuries of Islam. Those who have been studying the thousands of codices say that they show an involving Qur’an, with each version changed from the previous.

At best the Qur’an is the work of humans who tried to record what they remembered Muhammad said/did… at worst is it a human document with no inspiration from God at all but only written to support the rulers of the early Caliphates.

Exactly!
From the third chapter of the Mishkat we learn that for some time after the death of the prophet, the Quran continued to be preserved in the memories of the people, and was still recited in various conflicting ways; **but in the famous battle of Yamamah a great number of the Quran reciters were slain. **Then 'Umr, fearing lest another battle should still further reduce the number of those able to recite the Quran, so that much of it might be lost, came to Abu-Bakr and importuned him to order the Quran to be collected into one book. At first Abu-Bakr objected. “How can I do a thing which the prophet has not done?” he asked ; but at last, yielding to the entreaties of 'Umr, the Khalif gave orders to Zaid-ibn-Sabit, who had been an amanuensis of the prophet, to search out the Quran and bring it all together. This the latter did, "collecting it from leaves of the date, white stones, and the hearts of men. This copy of the Quran was given to the Khalif Abu -Bakr, after whose death it passed into the possession of the Khalif 'Umr, who in turn gave it into the keeping of his daughter Hafsa, one of the widows of Muhammad.

This valuable tradition of Al-Bukhari makes it clear that Abu-Bakr, for the first time, collected the whole Quran into one book; but he apparently made no critical study of the text with a view to reducing the various readings to one uniform standard. **On the contrary we learn from Al-Bukhari that within a short period the discrepancies and contradictions which existed in the various readings of the Quran became of a still graver nature; until at last the Khalif 'Usman took steps to allay the doubts which began to arise in the minds of the people. **The means which 'Usman adopted were drastic in the extreme, and simply consisted in transcribing one complete copy of the Quran, and then burning all other copies.

answering-islam.org/Books/Goldsack/Readings/chap2.htm

 

[paarsurrey]

The NT is what was added after Jesus .

Hi
Did Jesus receive Word from GodAllahYHWH or not?
If he received and he used to secure it, naturally; where is that? I am not talking about the NT; it was definitely added later, but it does not consist of Revelation, it is as you say an inspiration, if proved.
Thanks
I am an Ahmadi – a peaceful faith in Islam bridging gaps between faiths/denominations/religions/agnostics

 

[kellie]

Hi
Did Jesus receive Word from GodAllahYHWH or not?
If he received and he used to secure it, naturally; where is that? I am not talking about the NT; it was definitely added later, but it does not consist of Revelation, it is as you say an inspiration, if proved.
Thanks
I am an Ahmadi – a peaceful faith in Islam bridging gaps between faiths/denominations/religions/agnostics

paarsurrey,

We have tried explaining this to you in other threads, but you don’t seem to want to listen.

Jesus IS God.

Jesus IS the Word that was written about in the Old Testament.

Jesus IS the Word in living flesh.

Jesus did not need to write anything at all.

He followed the Old Testament, then gave mankind a new covenant, as He had the authority to do so as He IS God.

His Apostles wrote down all His teachings which are now known as the New Testament.

Jesus did not have any written word that you claim is now lost.

Jesus IS the final revelation of God.