Trent and Mary Suffering Pain in Childbirth

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Lormar said:
Unless I am 100% certain of what I am saying, I am rarely vehement in a response.

Our Lady DID NOT suffer any pain in childbirth. Pain in childbirth is a consequence of Original Sin. Our Lady was conceived without Original Sin.

There are no ifs, ands or buts about this. 🙂
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Does the Church actually teach this as a dogma? Can you give a reference?
Magnanimous said:
Traditionally, the Lady in Revelation is the Church, not Mary. It’s only with the new 3-year lectionary that the passages from Revelation have started to be used and associated with Marian feasts, like Assumption.

Also I believe **it’s Sacred Tradition **that in addition to not suffering pain, the birth of our Saviour was miraculous and the Virgin kept her bodily integrity “intact” because she didn’t give birth the the ususal physical way, if you you know what I mean.
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No, it’s not Sacred Tradition that Mary did not give birth to Jesus in the usual physical way.
It may be -a- (t)radition, or pious tradition, but not Sacred (T)radition.
 
clem456 said:
Does the Church actually teach this as a dogma? Can you give a reference?

No, it’s not Sacred Tradition that Mary did not give birth to Jesus in the usual physical way.
It may be -a- (t)radition, or pious tradition, but not Sacred (T)radition.
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Didn’t Our Lady of Fatima ask us to pray for those that sin against Her Divine Maternity? I wonder why so many want to reduce her to the point of being “just like us.” She was Holy, Immaculate and special from Her Conception to Eternity. Lets be thankful for God’s loving Grace for Her and us. She brought us Our Savior. God Bless, Memaw
 
Memaw said:
Didn’t Our Lady of Fatima ask us to pray for those that sin against Her Divine Maternity? I wonder why so many want to reduce her to the point of being “just like us.” She was Holy, Immaculate and special from Her Conception to Eternity. Lets be thankful for God’s loving Grace for Her and us. She brought us Our Savior. God Bless, Memaw
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Ok yes. I’m not sure why you quoted my post…
I was addressing the two other posts. 🤷
 
Please forgive my ignorance if I have denied in some way that Our Blessed Mother Mary is is the Mother of God or tired to reduce her to something less than who she is. :confused:
It was my intention only to show how not like us she is and I know she is the Mother of God but I also know that Jesus is Truly Human and Truly God. Not just God. I believe it is referred to as the Hypostatic union. So I believe we have to not only be mindful of Jesus’ Divinity but also His Humanity. To only see Our Blessed Mother Mary as being only the Mother of God can be just as damaging as seeing her as being only the Mother of His humanity.

One thing I remember hearing or reading someplace somewhere growing up is that Jesus passed through Our Blessed Mother’s birth-canal as an orb of light. In the original posts link they seem to be of like mind and use an examples of how Jesus went forth from the sepulcher while it was closed and sealed, and entered the room in which His disciples were assembled, the doors being shut.
I am not sure how Theologically correct this is. In my limited understanding the stone that sealed the sepulcher was rolled away and when Jesus entered the room in which His disciples had assembled behind closed doors was after His death and resurrection in His Glorified Body. To say He was already in His Glorified Body at the time of His birth would seem to imply He never became fully Human or that He did not become fully Human until after He was born. That would seem to imply that Jesus was not Truly Human and Truly God for the nine months that Our Blessed Mother Mary was pregnant or with-child but only after He was born.
Like I said above I am not sure how Theologically sound this line of thinking is. Will have to find a theologian someplace to ask about it.
 
simple_soul said:
I could not find the article referenced in the link provided in JKirkLVNV post so if I am repeating something I apologize.

I have met and heard of women who have had nearly painless childbirths and in some cases no pain. Not only were they painless but also no drugs were used.
When I saw this thread I did a quick google search and found a few testimonies about it. The one I read in particular said the method she used was to change her whole mindset on child birth from being a dreadful and painful experience to one of Joy. It got me thinking and I wonder…since we know that the sin of Adam and Eve corrupted our sight in how men and women look at and see each other did it not also then corrupt our outlook on how we see the rest of the world and each other and also how we see childbirth?
So if it is Mary, the Mother of Jesus, did not suffer the effects of this corrupted vision she would have found the perfect Joy in childbirth and the life giving and giving of self to her child that so many of us struggle with because we still struggle with the selfish and self centered self serving effects of original sin. We know our Blessed Mother Mary was not self serving and self centered so she would have an uncorrupted view and understanding of childbirth and what our corrupted view would conceive as being pain our Blessed Mother Mary would only find Love and Joy in. I know I could be wrong but I believe this is why it is said she did not feel pain in childbirth.

As always I hope and pray this makes some sense.
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Makes sense to me - I have had natural childbirth three times and would say it was more intense than painful (though not painless). But I am definitely not sinless, saintly nor due I wish to imply I am somehow better than some of my dear friends who had very painful labor and deliveries.

So I can easily accept it being completely joyful and pain-free for Mary. What I don’t understand is why it matters? 🤷
 
CradleJourney said:
Makes sense to me - I have had natural childbirth three times and would say it was more intense than painful (though not painless). But I am definitely not sinless, saintly nor due I wish to imply I am somehow better than some of my dear friends who had very painful labor and deliveries.

So I can easily accept it being completely joyful and pain-free for Mary. What I don’t understand is why it matters? 🤷
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Because it mattered to God so much that HE created her Immaculate, free of all sin and it’s consequences. That we DO know, the rest is speculation. God Bless, Memaw
 
We do know that Christ is of course sinless, yet he suffered physical pain.
The suffering of physical pain does not detract from one’s favor in God’s eyes.
 
clem456 said:
We do know that Christ is of course sinless, yet he suffered physical pain.
The suffering of physical pain does not detract from one’s favor in God’s eyes.
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That is what Jesus came to earth to do for us. Suffer and die for our sins. Mary did not, she was created to be His earthly Mother and our Spiritual Mother. She undid the harm by bringing our Savior to us, that Eve caused by her “original sin”. She was not created to copy her Son or Him her. Mary was created “Full of Grace” that’s it, complete. She didn’t need nor could she "gain " any more. Full of Grace, means just that.
Suffering for us can be a means of gaining “favor” in God’s eyes so to speak. If we do so according to His will. I had a very dear friend that found out she had cancer while carrying her 9th baby, and she wouldn’t let them do a thing till the baby was born. By then it was to late. She died when her baby was a year old. She had a Crucifix on the wall by her front door and every time she passed it she would say. "YOUR WILL, not mine. dear LORD. She may never be Canonized, but in my book she is a true Saint!. So is her husband who is doing a wonderful job of raising his large family. God Bless, Memaw
 
I had been under the assumption that there was always pain in child birth, even before the fall as most translations of the bible even the douay say for gen 3:16 that God would multiply the pain, implying there was some pain to begin with.
 
Memaw said:
That is what Jesus came to earth to do for us. Suffer and die for our sins. Mary did not, she was created to be His earthly Mother and our Spiritual Mother. She undid the harm by bringing our Savior to us, that Eve caused by her “original sin”. She was not created to copy her Son or Him her. Mary was created “Full of Grace” that’s it, complete. She didn’t need nor could she "gain " any more. Full of Grace, means just that.
Suffering for us can be a means of gaining “favor” in God’s eyes so to speak. If we do so according to His will. I had a very dear friend that found out she had cancer while carrying her 9th baby, and she wouldn’t let them do a thing till the baby was born. By then it was to late. She died when her baby was a year old. She had a Crucifix on the wall by her front door and every time she passed it she would say. "YOUR WILL, not mine. dear LORD. She may never be Canonized, but in my book she is a true Saint!. So is her husband who is doing a wonderful job of raising his large family. God Bless, Memaw
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Memaw, you seem to be implying that because Our Blessed Mother Mary is full of Grace she is incapable of any kind of redemptive suffering for others.
Is this correct? If so then that would seem to go against her title of Co-Redemtix.
 
Memaw said:
That is what Jesus came to earth to do for us. Suffer and die for our sins. Mary did not, she was created to be His earthly Mother and our Spiritual Mother. She undid the harm by bringing our Savior to us, that Eve caused by her “original sin”. She was not created to copy her Son or Him her. Mary was created “Full of Grace” that’s it, complete. She didn’t need nor could she "gain " any more. Full of Grace, means just that.
Suffering for us can be a means of gaining “favor” in God’s eyes so to speak. If we do so according to His will. I had a very dear friend that found out she had cancer while carrying her 9th baby, and she wouldn’t let them do a thing till the baby was born. By then it was to late. She died when her baby was a year old. She had a Crucifix on the wall by her front door and every time she passed it she would say. "YOUR WILL, not mine. dear LORD. She may never be Canonized, but in my book she is a true Saint!. So is her husband who is doing a wonderful job of raising his large family. God Bless, Memaw
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Yes I appreciate that very much. Mary and Jesus have different roles in salvation, obviously. They are both fully human though, Jesus also being fully divine.

The issue that can arise though is over-spiritualization… the idea that normal human pain is somehow incompatible with holiness or being favored by God, and that is just not so. The possibility of Mary suffering pain in childbirth does not detract from her being full of grace. And if she suffered pain, it does not mean that she was chastised for our sins as Christ was.
 
simple_soul said:
Memaw, you seem to be implying that because Our Blessed Mother Mary is full of Grace she is incapable of any kind of redemptive suffering for others.
Is this correct? If so then that would seem to go against her title of Co-Redemtix.
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Now where in the world did you ever get an idea like that??? I just don’t believe she ever suffered physical pain, such as in childbirth, illness, accident etc. Things that would never have happened to any human being before the fall of Adam and Eve. Pain in Her heart, yes, she had to watch Her Son being treated cruelly and carry and die on the Cross. Oh yes, She suffered, in a way none of us will ever understand, and she did it for us. Being a well educated young Jewish woman, she knew her scriptures very well and I believe she knew what was going to be the cost of being the Mother of the Messiah. She knew before she said “Yes” that her SON would suffer and die on the Cross. It was foretold in the Old Testament. We have no idea as to the infused knowledge she might have had too. As for Co-Redemtrix. that means She co-operated with her SON in HIS mission of Redeeming us. She did not redeem us. We can co-operate in OUR LORD’S mission too by uniting our sufferings to HIS for others. God Bless, Memaw
 
Memaw said:
Now where in the world did you ever get an idea like that??? I just don’t believe she ever suffered physical pain, such as in childbirth, illness, accident etc. Things that would never have happened to any human being before the fall of Adam and Eve. Pain in Her heart, yes, she had to watch Her Son being treated cruelly and carry and die on the Cross. Oh yes, She suffered, in a way none of us will ever understand, and she did it for us. Being a well educated young Jewish woman, she knew her scriptures very well and I believe she knew what was going to be the cost of being the Mother of the Messiah. She knew before she said “Yes” that her SON would suffer and die on the Cross. It was foretold in the Old Testament. We have no idea as to the infused knowledge she might have had too. As for Co-Redemtrix. that means She co-operated with her SON in HIS mission of Redeeming us. She did not redeem us. We can co-operate in OUR LORD’S mission too by uniting our sufferings to HIS for others. God Bless, Memaw
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Thanks for clarifying and God Bless you too!
 
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