Trent and reconciliation with the Reformed?

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hn160 said:
wisdomseeker;8643144:
Where did you get the idea the the three Ecumenical Creeds are the property of the Roman Church? The Creeds are catholic or universal. They do not belong to Roman Catholic Church, but to all Christendom…
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No, it doesnt. This was given to the Church by God and not those who left the Church.

The Apostles would not approve of such a thing. Jesus HImself said that if he doesnt listen to the Church, treat him as an anthema. Luther dissobeyed the Church, he was treated as such and have no right to the Word of God. This is a command from God. Do you say that God has changed His mind? you have taking something from the Church but it wont do any good to you since you are professing a lie. you dont belong to the CC. the CC is not made up of contradicting teachings. there is only one Teaching to which all must adhere to and it is not your teachings. To say that you are lead by the HS and not the Fathers and Saints of the Church is a sacrilege against them. They were lead by HS condemned those outside the Church. this is still valid today. what the HS said then has not changed because you are living here today. nothing has changed. what God said then, it is the same today.
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Pfaffenhoffen said:
Mine makes sense, your makes sense to you, and Who is right who is wrong?
2+2=4. I say it is wrong. You say it is right. So who is wrong and right ? You or me?
The Papacy does not depend on your or my opinion. dpends on the opinion of Christ.
What is His opinion?

Do you think that Protestatism will be in the world 2000 years from now? I guess it is impossible. Nowadays there are 33 thousand Protestant churches and it is fwoing at a rate of 200 a month. When I quote this number, some people contest it but it is enough to search in the net.

The Reform was a retrocess on the question of Papacy. It Christ who wanted a Pope not you or me. It is as clear as water in the Gospel and in the first 1400 years. Reformation discovered somethin new that the earlier dumb christians did not discover?

I seriously doubt it.
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Well me thinks that Christ or early christian doctrine is not so clear on what you claim they are. I would recomend going and reading the Reformers and their criticims on this issue.
 
CopticChristian said:
Yes. The Liturgy of the Word and the Liturgy of the Eucharist are both found in Scripture. The division in worship is the exclusion of the Scripturally based Liturgy of the Eucharist that many Protestant ecclesial communities have excluded.🙂

The Oriental Orthodox, Eastern Orthodox have unity in worship and unity with those groups are particulars. Anglican communities have similarities and that is why entire Anglican communities return from whence they came. For the remainder of the ecclesial communities it is destined to be individuals not communities.🙂
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Well I would say that Scripture teaches a different form of worship. For us Reformed Hebrews is where we realy get our theology from, not exscusivly though.
 
wisdomseeker said:
Why do you asks us Catholics? shouldnt you guys do this on your own? You got the Bible, and you claim to know what the Bible says, why cant you guys find what the Bible says that brings you all together?
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I don’t know that I particulerly claimed that. But given our doctrinal differences could there be a basis other than one side conceeding to the other for union? That was my question.
 
jwright82 said:
I don’t know that I particulerly claimed that. But given our doctrinal differences could there be a basis other than one side conceeding to the other for union? That was my question.
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If Truth is One, than all must come to that Truth. In this case, Jesus built a Church. what Church would that be?
 
wisdomseeker said:
Why do you asks us Catholics? shouldnt you guys do this on your own? You got the Bible, and you claim to know what the Bible says, why cant you guys find what the Bible says that brings you all together?
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CHAPTER V.
On the necessity, in adults, of preparation for Justification, and whence it proceeds.
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to convert themselves to their own justification, by freely assenting to and co-operating with that said grace: in such sort that, while God touches the heart of man by the illumination of the Holy Ghost, neither is man himself utterly without doing anything while he receives that inspiration, forasmuch as he is also able to reject it;
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CHAPTER VII.
What the justification of the impious is, and what are the causes thereof.
This disposition, or preparation, is followed by Justification itself, which is not remission of sins merely, but also the sanctification and renewal of the inward man, through the voluntary reception of the grace, and of the gifts, whereby man of unjust becomes just, and of an enemy a friend, that so he may be an heir according to hope of life everlasting.
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CHAPTER XII.
That a rash presumptuousness in the matter of Predestination is to be avoided.
No one, moreover, so long as he is in this mortal life, ought so far to presume as regards the secret mystery of divine predestination, as to determine for certain that he is assuredly in [Page 40] the number of the predestinate; as if it were true, that he that is justified, either cannot sin any more, or, if he do sin, that he ought to promise himself an assured repentance; for except by special revelation, it cannot be known whom God hath chosen unto Himself.
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[Page 46] CANON XI.-If any one saith, that men are justified, either by the sole imputation of the justice of Christ, or by the sole remission of sins, to the exclusion of the grace and the charity which is poured forth in their hearts by the Holy Ghost, and is inherent in them; or even that the grace, whereby we are justified, is only the favour of God; let him be anathema.
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CANON XII.-If any one saith, that justifying faith is nothing else but confidence in the divine mercy which remits sins for Christ’s sake; or, that this confidence alone is that whereby we are justified; let him be anathema.
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You see the same differance over language between infused (Roman Catholic view) and Imputed (Orthodox Prostatant view) rightousness. Here is my denomonation on the “Evangelicals and Catholics together” document pcahistory.org/pca/3-371.html.
 
guanophore said:
Of course unity is attainable, or Jesus would not have commanded us to be ONE. Unity,however, lies in adherance to the Truth. It is not furthered by abandoning the faith that was handed down to us from the Apostles. There is no other foundation than that which has been laid, which is Jesus Christ. Catholics believe that Jesus’ is preserved infallibly by the Holy Spirit in His One Body, the Church. Because of that, we are not at liberty to jettison aspects of the One Faith as have our Lutheran and Reformed brethren. We are under Apostolic command to preserve that which was once for all deposited.
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We would disagree over Apostolic teaching but my question was can we remain Catholics and Reformed and still unite? Not one side going over to the other.
 
guanophore said:
We are all called to love one another, and be reconciled to one another. This does not require that we abandon our faith.

Obviously this is possible, or it would not be happening. 😃

I think you are asking; “Can there be unity” in this case. No, only disunity.

There are many ways to move toward one another. The Joint Declaration, for example, just clarified the Catholic faith, and corrected misconceptions that were rampant in Luther’s day and age. Since it affirms the Truth, it has a unifying result.
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Well the Joint Declaration is regected as not being acurate by confessional Lutherans and Reformed Christians. So my question was is there some other basis for unity?
 
jwright82 said:
Well the Joint Declaration is regected as not being acurate by confessional Lutherans and Reformed Christians. So my question was is there some other basis for unity?
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Not until protestants give up the idea that the Bible is their main authority. Jesus never said that. Jesus says that the Church is to be obeyed. No protestant claim their gathering of people as congregation has any authority over them. that is because they dont have the Church. the Church is no small thing. It is huge. It is sent forth by God with authority to forgive and hold the sins of man. Only the CC claim is such.

So, begin by picking a point of reference.
 
jwright82 said:
Well me thinks that Christ or early christian doctrine is not so clear on what you claim they are. I would recomend going and reading the Reformers and their criticims on this issue.
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The “reformers” were Catholic Priests and a Catholic lawyer. They are dissenters. Dissenters do not then or now have the authority to invent doctrine and lead the faithful. Nestorius was a priest and a dissenter, yes there were followers. Nestorius like these dissenters do not have authority.👍
 
hn160 said:
wisdomseeker;8643144:
Where did you get the idea the the three Ecumenical Creeds are the property of the Roman Church? The Creeds are catholic or universal. They do not belong to Roman Catholic Church, but to all Christendom…
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I do not want to appear to be ignorant. Please name the Ecumenical Councils or Ecumenical Creeds that you adhere to as being property of all Christians…🙂
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wisdomseeker said:
Not until protestants give up the idea that the Bible is their main authority. Jesus never said that. Jesus says that the Church is to be obeyed. No protestant claim their gathering of people as congregation has any authority over them. that is because they dont have the Church. the Church is no small thing. It is huge. It is sent forth by God with authority to forgive and hold the sins of man. Only the CC claim is such.

So, begin by picking a point of reference.
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Well I think that you are taking Sola Scriptura to a level that we Reformed would not take it.
 
CopticChristian said:
The “reformers” were Catholic Priests and a Catholic lawyer. They are dissenters. Dissenters do not then or now have the authority to invent doctrine and lead the faithful. Nestorius was a priest and a dissenter, yes there were followers. Nestorius like these dissenters do not have authority.👍
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Your assuming too much here. Did they actually invent doctrine? They interacted quite exstensivly with the church fathers, so ignoring them would be somewhat foolish. Only God has authority, this same authority is carried over to his Word (the Scriptures).
 
wisdomseeker said:
I did not post this. I think Contarine did.
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No, hn160 did.

As I have said before, you need to learn to use the quote function properly. It was tricky for me too.

Put “quote” in square brackets before the quote, and the same thing afterwards but with a dash / in front of the word “quote.”
 
jwright82 said:
Your assuming too much here. Did they actually invent doctrine? They interacted quite exstensivly with the church fathers, so ignoring them would be somewhat foolish. Only God has authority, this same authority is carried over to his Word (the Scriptures).
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82,

You state that I am assuming too much. This is quantification of something you believe I did.

Help me understand your measuring. What did I assume? What is the appropriate amount of assumption? When would I assume too little? Please clarify what I assumed and your method of measuring assumption.

Did they actually invent doctrine? In my opinion, Yes.

You mention interaction with church fathers. How did they do that. They have been long dead. How does one interact with the dead? Ignoring this interaction that I do not understand you say would be foolish. Clarify this.

Only God has authority you state. This authority carries over to his Word and you identify this as Scripture. Is it my understanding that you believe you are a Christian and that as a Christian you can read Scripture?

Take your time as I know this is a busy time of the year. I had difficulty understanding what it is you are saying.
 
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