Trent Horn debate with James White: watch here!

[MT1926]

DEBATE REVIEW NUMBER 2

"If God say He’ll do God’s will, will God’s will be done by God?

This week he takes Dr. White’s advice when he tells us that…

“we need to hear what someone is saying”

…and…

“we need to analyze it fairly; whichever side we are on”

youtube.com/watch?v=osekqva5tug

I really like this guys simple common sense approach.

 

[LatinRight]

Latin,

Thanks for taking the time to post the wealth of information. You are still kind of talking over my head. I think that is the main point we can get from this debate. From the standpoint of the believer, who is not fully submersed in theology, what is the sense of speaking of salvation from the elect point of view, as Dr. White does? It’s like trying to explain calculus to someone who has yet to take basic algebra.

When we speak in such deep theological terms just spouting facts without explanations, as Dr. White does, it comes down to this is how it is, you just need to believe it. Like he said in the debate the average person can not understand the book of Hebrews so they just need to believe what I am telling them. Huh?? Why?? That would be my response.

That is basically what I hear when salvation is talked about from the point of view of the elect. Since it is impossible to prove who these elect are, why would one believe that these elect even exist? I would be like Huh?? Why do I care that the elect are saved if I have know way of knowing if I am among the elect? How about we talk about how the average Christian is saved?

The statement quoted above I do understand and pretty much sums it up for me. It all comes down to God’s foreknowledge. God has foreseen how we will live our lives and this is why our names are or are not written. However, he foresees our works good or bad and they do play a role in our salvation. Not just our status in heaven.

I think the part that no one is bringing up in this debate is when Dr. White speaks of salvation he is technically speaking from God’s point of view (which is the Book of Life), he already knows the end therefore “NO” a Christian can not lose there salvation because God already knows the end of the race. However, from man’s point of view (the second book), which is the way I believe we, being man, should approach this subject. We do not know the end of the race, so “YES” from our point of view a Christian can lose their salvation. Unless we endure to the end we will not know the end of the race.

Please excuse my stupidity but I have no idea what this quote is referring to.

God Bless

God bless MT1926,

There are two issues in your post.
In this post I explain only one of the two issues, then I will explain the other issue another post.

THE FIRST ISSUE AS FOLLOWS

You said:

I found it on this site in the Catholic Encyclopedia
catholic.com/encyclopedia/predestination

THE STATEMENT OF ST. AUGUSTINE

Quote: St. Augustine: “Si non es praedestinatus, fac ut praedestineris”
(if you are not predestined, so act that you may be predestined).

However, as intimated by the Bible, there exists a second, more voluminous book, in which are entered not only the names of the elect, but also the names of all the faithful on earth. Such a metaphorical book is supposed wherever the possibility is hinted at that a name, though entered, might again be stricken out [cf. Apoc., iii, 5: “and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life” (cf. Ex., xxxii, 33)]. The name will be mercilessly cancelled when a Christian sinks into infidelity or godlessness and dies in his sin. End quote.

In the above quote St. Augustine stated:

1. (if you are not predestined, so act that you may be predestined).
2. There exists a second, more voluminous book, in which are entered not only the names of the elect, but also the names of all the faithful on earth.

The name will be mercilessly cancelled when a Christian sinks into infidelity or godlessness and dies in his sin.

THE ANSWER OF THE WRITERS OF THE ARTICLE OF THE PREDESTINATION TO ST. AUGUSTINE’S STATEMENT

1. Strict theology, it is true, cannot approve this bold saying.
2. Except in so far as the original decree of predestination is conceived as at first a hypothetical decree.
   Which is afterwards changed to an absolute and irrevocable decree. End quote.

MEANINGS OF THE ABOVE ANSWER

1. Strict theology cannot approve that St. Augustine’s above bold saying is true. – Meanings: St. Augustine made a mistake when he believed, those who are not predestined to heaven at the first time, will have a second chance to be predestined to heaven later.

The above view absolutely contradicts Catholic teachings.

1. Could be true only if the original decree of predestination would be a conditional decree on the faithfulness of those whose names written in the book. – Meanings: St. Augustine’s view cannot be true because there is no conditional decree of predestination in Catholic theology.

SUMMARY

1. There is only one absolute and irrevocable decree of predestination exists in Catholic theology.

As the results of the above predestination: There are only two groups of people in Catholic theology.

1. Elect, cannot lose their salvation, cannot end up in hell.
2. Reprobates, cannot end up in heaven.

God bless.

LatinRight

 

[MT1926]

Latin,

Thanks again for the response.

Man you got me so confused. I wrote you an entire response and just deleted it because I finally realized you answered a question I never even brought up. There in was my confusion.

God bless MT1926,

Quote: St. Augustine: “Si non es praedestinatus, fac ut praedestineris”
(if you are not predestined, so act that you may be predestined).

I never even mentioned this quote, you brought it up and refuted it in the same post. That’s why I had no clue what you were referencing.

THE ANSWER OF THE WRITERS OF THE ARTICLE OF THE PREDESTINATION TO ST. AUGUSTINE’S STATEMENT

1. Strict theology, it is true, cannot approve this bold saying.

1. Except in so far as the original decree of predestination is conceived as at first a hypothetical decree.
   Which is afterwards changed to an absolute and irrevocable decree. End quote.

MEANINGS OF THE ABOVE ANSWER

1. Strict theology cannot approve that St. Augustine’s above bold saying is true. – Meanings: St. Augustine made a mistake when he believed, those who are not predestined to heaven at the first time, will have a second chance to be predestined to heaven later.

The above view absolutely contradicts Catholic teachings.

1. Could be true only if the original decree of predestination would be a conditional decree on the faithfulness of those whose names written in the book. – Meanings: St. Augustine’s view cannot be true because there is no conditional decree of predestination in Catholic theology.

I have no problem agreeing with number 1. However, not to sure about number 2. You stopped the quote 4 lines short. If there is no conditional decree why did the writers finish this statement by saying:

by the prayers, good works, and perseverance of him who is predestined, according to the words of the Apostle (II Pet., i, 10): “Wherefore, brethren, labor the more, **that by good works **you may make sure your calling and election.”

Why did they say "according to the words of the Apostle Peter. If what you say is correct the writers here are leaving the reader confused. When I read a statement that starts with except I believe there might be an exception. When they spell out the exception and finish with “according to the words of an Apostle” I read that they are confirming the exception. If they are denying the exception shouldn’t they have said contrary to the words of Peter? Also, why would St. Peter say “**that by good works **you may make sure your calling and election”, if good works aren’t necessary for salvation?

According to the words of Dr. Scott Hahn:

2 Peter 1:10 (your call and election): Believers are chosen and called by God to be his own people in Christ (1 Peter 2:9). This status is maintained and confirmed ** by living the faith and attaining the virtues of gospel morality outlined in 2 Peter 1:5-7. It is jeopardized, however, if one becomes re-entangled in a life of sin (2 Peter 2:20-22). The danger that one might fall shows that confirming one’s election is a matter of real and crucial importance, i.e., it cannot be reduced to a merely subjective or personal reassurance that one’s salvation has already been eternally secured.**

I have no problem with there being the elect and the reprobate. The problem I have is there is no way of us knowing who is who. Therefore, I believe it is dangerous theology to speak of salvation, to the less informed (who this debate was geared towards), from the view point of the Book of Life and our names already being written in or blotted out before the day we were born. When we do, we reduce it to merely subjective reassurance, which Dr. Hahn warns against.

Yes from God’s point of view we are elect or reprobate. Since he knows the day we will die he knows what state we are in when we take our final breath. Therefore, he foreknows who’s names are written in or blotted out of the book of life. However, from our human point of view we do not know they day we will die. We can be living our entire lives acting like a reprobate and God would already have written our names in the Book of Life because he foreknows we would eventually die a martyrs death. Or we could live our entire lives as an elect and would have already had our names blotted out because God foreknows we will deny him and perform heinous crimes prior to our death. Or we could bounce back and forth between loving God and loving the Flesh 100 times during our lives. Making it, from our point of view, a roll of the dice of what state we will be in when we take that final breath.

God Bless

 

[LatinRight]

God bless MT1926,

You said MT1926

“I have no problem with there being the elect and the reprobate.

The problem I have is there is no way of us knowing who is who.

Therefore, I believe it is dangerous theology to speak of salvation, to the less informed (who this debate was geared towards), from the view point of the Book of Life and our names already being written in or blotted out before the day we were born.” End quote.

Yet it is theological fact, our names already being written in or blotted out from the Book of life with an absolute and irrevocable decree long before the day we were born.

But there is a Good News, and I’m sorry I didn’t tell you this before.

We always dealt with other issues and I didn’t want to tell you this one of the best news in the world without prove it to you.

Can anyone even imagine that, God is that cruel and sadistic that He has given us His Glorious News of the Gospel and He has given us/His children/elect His glorious gift of Everlasting life and then He keeps His children/elect in the most worried and disturbed state throughout all their life by preventing them from know it?

That would be Not a Good News, that would be a torturous news for us as long as we remain alive.

The Good News is, God not only given us/His children/elect His glorious gift of Everlasting Life, but God wants us that we know it right now.

If we give our loved one a nice gift, do we put a clause on: Not free open until your last day.

As we wouldn’t do that: Can we believe when God at our baptism given us His gift of everlasting life and His gift of final perseverance which the guaranty of salvation, He puts a clause on it that we not free to know we have these gifts until the last day of our life?

God wants us that WE KNOW for many reasons, one reason is the Eucharist, that we have His gift of Everlasting Life which is protected with His special grace the gift of final perseverance UNTIL THE DAY WE DIE.

Without the above protection every elect of God would end up in hell.

So, the crucial question is: Should we know with certainty that we are God’s children/elect and we are in the state of grace before we partake in the Eucharist?

ANSWER

As the EUCHARIST is ONLY FOR THOSE who have been baptized into the Body of Christ (1 Cor.12:12-13, 20,27), fellow citizens with the saints, members of the household of God and built into God’s Holy Temple in the Lord for a habitation of God in the Spirit (Eph.2:19-22), BEFORE WE PARTAKE IN THE ECHHARIST we MUST KNOW with certainty we are God’s children/elect, and we are in the state of grace!!!

Continue

 

[LatinRight]

Continuation

Canon from the Sixth Session of the Council of Trent:

CANON XVI.-“If any one saith, that he will for certain, of an absolute and infallible certainty, have that great gift of perseverance unto the end,-unless he HAVE LEARNED THIS BY SPECIAL REVELATION; let him be anathema.” Emphasize mine.

According to the Trent:

If we have learned it from GOD’S SPECIAL REVELATION we can know it with certainty, THAT WE HAVE God’s great gift of perseverance unto the end, which means we are God’s elect.

So, we have a GREEN LIGHT to believe right now from God’s special revelation with CERTAINTY that we are among God’s elect.

HOW CAN WE HAVE GOD’S SPECIAL REVELATIONS?

If we are God’s children via our spirits we have a permanent open line communication with God. – We permanently receive God’s leading instructions and His different special revelations.

Rom.8:14-16;
For as MANY AS are LED BY THE SPIRIT OF GOD, these are sons of God (elect).

How could the elect LED BY THE SPIRIT OF GOD if they wouldn’t have a permanent open line communication with God? – Could not.

Every elect of God has an open line communication with God, but not every elect (for lack of knowledge) listen to the voice of the Holy Spirit, which means in reality, the communication line between God and the elect is broken.

Rom.8:15;
For you did NOT receive the spirit of bondage again to FEAR, but you received the SPIRIT OF ADOPTION by whom we cry out “ABBA, FATHER.”

The Spirit Himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God (elect).” End quote. – This is God’s first special revelation, **many God’s special revelations and instructions will follows. **

How could we co-operate with the grace of God without His special revelations and instructions? – We could not.

God puts his instructions and special revelations into OUR SPIRITS, via our spirits God’s leading instructions and different special revelations goes into our hearts and to our brains.

**We can receive God’s instructions and special revelations whichever way God wants to give them to us.

FOR EXAMPLE:

God puts His special revelation the SPIRIT OF ADOPTION via our spirit into our hearts and our brains.

We know God’s gift of special revelations, in our hearts and our brains.

The Spirit Himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children/elect of God and we cry out “Abba! Father!

We have “Unconditional BELIEF in what God says.”

We have “Unconditional TRUST in God.”

We have “Unconditional LOVE for God and for others.”

We have incredible power and zeal to proclaim the Gospel to everyone.

The Holy Spirit is burning in our hearts, we have incredible joy, we know we are God’s children/elect. – FROM GOD’S SPECIAL REVELATIONS.

We have a thanks-full heart for God for our salvation and we have faith to believe it.

Without faith it is impossible to please God. – I believe faithlessness is a false humility.

We HAVE BEEN saved by faith. – How can we saved by faith if we don’t believe we have been saved and in the Body of Christ we have been build into God’s Holy Temple?

The Gospel which was dry before comes alive and lives in our hearts.

We start to pray in the spirit, in a new tongues. – It is a spiritual gift, not a condition to have salvation.

Then we can be sure we have God’s special revelations MANY TIMES OVER and we can be certain we are God’s children/elect.

Of course we can have God’s special revelations that we are God’s children/elect many other different ways as well.

Continue**

 

[LatinRight]

Continuation

AN IMPORTANT WARNING FOR ALL OF US! – 1 Cor.11:27;

The EUCHARIST is only for God’s children/elect, who have been in the Body of Christ built into God’s Holy Temple NO ONE ELSE!!!

God doesn’t want the spectators/reprobates who are among us (1 John 2:19) participate in the Eucharist.

We all should know our standing before we partake in the Eucharist! – There are two possibilities: We are God’s children/elect or we are spectators/reprobates among God’s children.

How could we know we are IN THE STATE OF GRACE, we have been built into God’s Holy Temple in the Lord, IF IN THE FIRST PLACE, we could not know we are among the elect. – It would not be possible to know!!!

To partake in the Eucharist with FAITH it is a CONDITION TO KNOW we are among the elect!!!

**In 2 Cor.13:5-6 God has given us a COMMAND and we MUST obey it! **

2 Cor.13:5-6; (Ignatius Catholic Study Bible)

“Examine yourselves, to see whether you are holding to your faith.

TEST YOURSELVES.

Do you not realize that Jesus Christ is in you? – unless indeed you fail to meet the test!

I hope YOU WILL FIND OUT that we have not failed. End quote

The above COMMAND STRONGLY REINFORCED again in 1 Cor.11:27-30.

1 Cor.11:27-30;

27 So then, whoever eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be** guilty of sinning against the body and blood of the Lord. **

28 Everyone ought to examine themselves before they eat of the bread and drink from the cup.

29 For those who eat and drink without discerning the body of Christ **eat and drink judgment on themselves. **

30 That is why many among you are weak and sick, and a number of you have fallen asleep.

When God has given the command to his children/elect to do the test, God has also given his children the ability to do the test and TO KNOW THE TEST RESULTS.

For example of a test: – Test can be done many different ways.

TEST AS FOLLOWS

John 5:24; (Ignatius Catholic Study Bible)

“Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears my word and believes him who sent me, HAS EVERLASTING LIFE; he does NOT come into judgment, but has passed FROM DEATH to LIFE.”

Here must make it clear: As God’s child/elect we stand before the judgment seat, but only our works will be judged, our salvation is NOT at stake. – 1 Cor.3:12-15.
Even if one God’s child/elect would lose salvation, God would lose His omniscience.
This is a DE FIDE Dogma of the Catholic Church, the highest level of binding theological certainty.
God’s child/elect never lose salvation. – Eternally protected by God’s special gift, the gift of final perseverance.]

1 John 5:13; (Ignatius Catholic Study Bible)

“I write this to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may KNOW that you have eternal life.”

Without being God’s children we could not believe the above word of God. – We would have HUNDREDS EXCUSES WHY CAN’T WE BELIEVE IT.

If we believe the above word of God we are God’s children/His elect. We have not failed the test.

If we don’t believe the above word of God, (we have no faith in the word of God, the line of communication between God and us is still broken) we have failed the test.

Canon from the Sixth Session of the Council of Trent:

CANON XVI.-“If any one saith, that he will for certain, of an absolute and infallible certainty, have that great gift of perseverance unto the end,-unless he HAVE LEARNED THIS BY SPECIAL REVELATION; let him be anathema.” Emphasize mine.

The Eucharist is only for God’s elect [built into God’s Holy Temple].

As we see above the CANON XVI of the Trent, strongly protects the Eucharist from the spectators/reprobates and from those WHO HAS NO FAITH to participate in the Eucharist.

At the same time gives the green light for God’s children/elect THOSE WHO HAS FAITH for their participation in the Eucharist.

IN THE FINAL ANALYSES

THE EUCHARIST IS ONLY for God’s children/elect, whose names are in the Book of Life, predestined to heaven, have been baptized into the Body of Christ (1 Cor.12:12-13, 20,27), fellow citizens with the saints, members of the household of God, have been built into God’s Holy Temple in the Lord for a habitation of God in the Spirit (Eph.2:19-22) and in the state of grace.

If I don’t have faith to believe:

I’m a God’s child/elect, my name is in the Book of Life, predestined to heaven, have been baptized into the Body of Christ (1 Cor.12:12-13, 20,27), fellow citizens with the saints, members of the household of God, have been built into God’s Holy Temple in the Lord for a habitation of God in the Spirit (Eph.2:19-22), and I still partake in the Eucharist, I partake in the Eucharist WITHOUT FAITH …

God bless.

LatinRight

 

[MT1926]

TEST AS FOLLOWS

John 5:24; (Ignatius Catholic Study Bible)

“Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears my word and believes him who sent me, HAS EVERLASTING LIFE; he does NOT come into judgment, but has passed FROM DEATH to LIFE.”

Here must make it clear: As God’s child/elect we stand before the judgment seat, but only our works will be judged, our salvation is NOT at stake. – 1 Cor.3:12-15.
Even if one God’s child/elect would lose salvation, God would lose His omniscience.
This is a DE FIDE Dogma of the Catholic Church, the highest level of binding theological certainty.
God’s child/elect never lose salvation. – Eternally protected by God’s special gift, the gift of final perseverance.]

Latin you seem like a really smart person. But when you say things like this you really confuse me. You are coming across as deceptive. I don’t mean to be unkind but you state here in your post “Ignatius Catholic Study Bible”. Well that is not what it says. It says:

verse 24 Signifies a spiritual transfer from the curses of the Old Covenant to the blessings of the New. Believers are rescued from the fallen family of Adam and reinstated in the divine family.

It does not say anything about eternal security. It does not say “our salvation is not at stake”. And it does not say works play no part in our salvation.

1 John 5:13; (Ignatius Catholic Study Bible)

“I write this to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may KNOW that you have eternal life.”

Without being God’s children we could not believe the above word of God. – We would have HUNDREDS EXCUSES WHY CAN’T WE BELIEVE IT.

If we believe the above word of God we are God’s children/His elect. We have not failed the test.

If we don’t believe the above word of God, (we have no faith in the word of God, the line of communication between God and us is still broken) we have failed the test.

This one is very upsetting to me. Here you give your own opinions and claim they are from the Ignatius Catholic Study Bible. I can’t figure out if you are just having troubles letting go of some of the teachings you learned prior to becoming Catholic (did you say you were a Calvinist? I can’t recall) or if you are deliberately trying to confuse Catholic teachings.

The Ignatius Bible says nothing of what you stated about the elect. It actually says the opposite.

**
5:13 you have eternal life: ** John is certain, not that his readers will make heaven, but that they are filled with the living presence of Christ. This is how John understands “eternal life” throughout the letter (1:2; 3:14-15; 5:1-12, 20). Readers are thus assured that they possess Christ, not that they will persevere in his grace until the end. The danger still exists that the saints on earth can fall into deadly sin (5:16).

I don’t mean to come across as unkind, but if you are going to point us to the Ignatius Catholic Study Bible and quote something different than what it says, you appear to be trying to confuse your fellow Catholics.

Here is a great article from Tim Staples that will help you understand how the word know is being used by John in this verse…that you may KNOW that you have eternal life.”

catholic.com/magazine/print-edition/are-you-saved-if-only

IN THE FINAL ANALYSES

THE EUCHARIST IS ONLY for God’s children/elect, whose names are in the Book of Life, predestined to heaven, have been baptized into the Body of Christ (1 Cor.12:12-13, 20,27), fellow citizens with the saints, members of the household of God, have been built into God’s Holy Temple in the Lord for a habitation of God in the Spirit (Eph.2:19-22) and in the state of grace.

If I don’t have faith to believe:

I’m a God’s child/elect, my name is in the Book of Life, predestined to heaven, have been baptized into the Body of Christ (1 Cor.12:12-13, 20,27), fellow citizens with the saints, members of the household of God, have been built into God’s Holy Temple in the Lord for a habitation of God in the Spirit (Eph.2:19-22), and I still partake in the Eucharist, I partake in the Eucharist WITHOUT FAITH …

God bless.

LatinRight

We don’t need to believe the highlighted part to partake of the Eucharist.

I’m a God’s child/elect, my name is in the Book of Life, predestined to heaven

Quite the contrary. I would argue to assume one’s name is already in the book of life and to believe works play not part in our salvation sounds like the sin of presumption. Which is a mortal sin and would make us unworthy to partake of the Eucharist.

From Father Vincent Serpa.

Full Question
I don’t understand the sin of presumption. Is it deciding to sin because one can always go to confession before the actual sin is committed and receive forgiveness? Or is it deciding to sin because it can be confessed later?
Answer
This is how the old Catholic Encyclopedia defines the sin of presumption:

It may be defined as the condition of a soul that, because of a badly regulated reliance on God’s mercy and power, hopes for salvation without doing anything to deserve it, or for pardon of his sins without repenting of them.

God Bless

 

[LatinRight]

God bless MT1926,

I understand your post, I also understand your concerns.

My past: I was an Evangelical Christian before I become a Catholic.

When I was an Evangelical I didn’t study doctrines, so I don’t know the Evangelical doctrines.

I even had a poor knowledge on salvation, I even believed; God’s child/elect can lose salvation, this really shows my poor knowledge as an Evangelical.

After I become a Catholic I get into Catholic teachings on salvation, predestination, etc.

When I first read the Catholic DE FIDE Dogma Predestination of the elect, at that time I realized how wrong I was to believe a God’s child/elect can lose salvation.

I can tell you MT1926, my knowledge on salvation, predestination, justification, conditions of supernatural merit, balance between faith and works 100 % based on Catholic teachings.

I studied and studied and believe me (I’m not boasting) I know the above Catholic teachings reasonably well.

I know you study so much, a way I see it, you didn’t study the foundation of the above subjects.

Unless we know the foundation, we cannot build on it, always everything comes down like the house of cards.

NOW LET’S SEE THE FOUNDATION

**The Catholic Church affirms predestination as a *DE FIDE *Dogma (the highest level of binding theological certainty).

CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA

THE CATHOLIC DOGMA. – The predestination of the elect**

Consequently, the whole future membership of heaven, down to its minutest details, has

been IRREVOCABLY FIXED FROM ALL ETERNITY. Nor could it be otherwise. For if it

were possible that a predestined individual should after all be CAST INTO HELL or that

one not predestined should in the end REACH HEAVEN, then God would have been

MISTAKEN in his foreknowledge of future events; He would NO LONGER be omniscient.

God’s unerring foreknowledge and foreordaining is designated in the Bible by the beautiful

figure of the “Book of Life” (liber vitæ, to biblion tes zoes). This book of life is a list which

contains the names of ALL THE ELECT and admits NEITHER ADDITIONS NO ERASURES.

(2) The second quality of predestination, the DEFINITENESS of the number of the elect,

follows NATURALLY from the first. For if the eternal counsel of God regarding the

predestined is UNCHANGEABLE, then the number of the predestined must likewise be

UNCHANGEABLE and DEFINITE, subject NEITHER to ADDITIONS nor to

CANCELLATIONS. Anything indefinite in the number would eo ipso imply a lack of

certitude in God’s knowledge and would DESTROY His omniscience. End quote. Emphasis added.

Now MT1926, what can we see above?

Continue

 

[LatinRight]

Continuation

1. We can see above: God has completed the Book of Life before the foundation of the world by taken out the names of the reprobate for their vehement rejection of God and His grace.
2. For their rejection, God has predestined every reprobate to hell, before the foundation of the world.
3. Only the names of God’s elect stands written in the Book of Life.
4. God predestined every of His elect to heaven.
5. At their baptism, every elect is a recipient of God’s free gift of everlasting life and God’s free gift of final perseverance which is an eternal assurance of their salvation.
6. The Book of Life completed before the creation of the world, after completion, the Book of life admits neither additions no erasures.
7. If an elect would end up in hell or a reprobate would end up in heaven, God would lose His omniscience.
8. Concerning the Book of Life, there are only two groups of people in the world, the elect and the reprobates.
9. As the elect cannot lose their salvation, then who can lose salvation?

The answer cannot be other, the reprobates can lose salvation who are already predestined to hell before the foundation of the world.

1. So, who are those who are predestined to Grace? – Every predestined to grace end up in hell.

The answer cannot be other, God predestined some of the reprobates to grace from those who are already predestined to hell before the foundation of the world for their vehement rejection of God and His grace.

1. So, who are those who are can lose salvation today?

The answer cannot be other, those reprobates can lose salvation today who are predestined to hell before the foundation of the world, and also predestined to grace and our days become Christians as well.

1. Every reprobate who are predestined to grace, must lose their salvation and must end up in hell.
2. When we referring to, Christian can lose salvation, we referring only to those reprobates who are already predestined to hell, before the foundation of the world, for their vehement rejection of God and His grace.
3. The elect has God’s gift of everlasting life and God’s gift of final perseverance, but no reprobate-Christian is a recipient of these gifts.
4. The contents of the memory and the will of the elect, and the contents of the memory and the will of those reprobates who are some period of their life become Christians are fundamentally different.

Continue

 

[LatinRight]

Continuation

THE CRUCIAL QUESTION IS: HOW CAN WE KNOW WE ARE AMONG THE PREDESTINED TO GLORY/HEAVEN OR WE ARE AMONG THE PREDESTINED TO GRACE AND WE END UP IN HELL?

This is a very easy test as follows: The Catholic teachings and the Scripture helps us to do the test.

De gratia Christi 25, 26:
“For not only has God given us our ability and helps it, but He even works [brings about] willing and acting in us; not that we do not will or that we do not act, but that without His help we neither will anything good nor do it.”

De gratia et libero arbitrio 16, 32:
“It is certain that we will when we will; but He brings it about that we will good. . . . It is certain that we act when we act, but He brings it about that we act, PROVIDING MOST EFFECTIVE POWERS TO THE WILL.”
Fhil.2:13; “For it is God who works in you both to will and to do for His good pleasure.”

The answer to the question is in, De gratia Christi 25, 26:, De gratia et libero arbitrio 16, 32: and in Fhil.2:13, because shows the DIFFERENT wills of the elect and the reprobates.

THE CONTENTS OF THE MEMORY AND THE WILL OF THE ELECT

1. God predestined the elect to heaven.
   God also put into the memory and the will of the elect the desire to go to heaven.
2. God has given His elect the gift of everlasting life.
   God also put into the memory and the will of the elect the desire to have everlasting life.
3. God has given His elect His gift of final perseverance.
   God also put into the memory and the will of the elect the desire to persevere to the end of life.

THE CONTENTS OF THE MEMORY AND THE WILL OF THE REPROBATE-CHRISTIANS

(Pease keep in mind, the reprobates are reprobates because of their vehement rejection of God and His grace and their names taken out from the Book of Life and they are predestined to hell before the foundation of the world.)

Matt.7:6 “Do not give dogs what is holy, and do not throw your pearls before pigs, lest they trample them underfoot and turn to attack you.”

Jesus addresses the above insulting labels to anyone inhospitable to the Gospel. – Believe me, for their vehement rejection of God and His grace, – seems to me the reprobates are inhospitable to the Gospel.

1. God did not predestine the reprobate-Christians to heaven.
   God did not put into the memory and the will of the reprobate-Christians the desire to go to heaven.
2. God did not give the reprobate- Christians the gift of everlasting life.
   God did not put into the memory and the will of the reprobate-Christians the desire to have everlasting life. – How could God give the reprobate-Christians His gift of everlasting life when God predestined all of them to hell before the foundation of the world?
3. God did not give the reprobate-Christians His gift of final perseverance.
   God did not put into the memory and the will of the reprobate-Christians the desire to persevere to the end of life.

SUMMARY OF THE CONTENTS OF THE MEMORY AND THE WILL OF THE ELECT AND THE REPROBATE-CHRISTIANS

The memory and the will of the Elect:

1. The memory and the will contain the desire to go to heaven.
2. The memory and the will contain the desire to have everlasting life.
3. The memory and the will contain the desire to persevere to the end of life.

The memory and the will of the reprobate-Christians:

1. The memory and the will is not contains the desire to go to heaven.
2. The memory and the will is not contains the desire to have everlasting life.
3. The memory and the will is not contains the desire to persevere to the end of life.

TEST RESULT

a. The memory and the will of the elect contain the desire to go to heaven, to have everlasting life and to persevere to the end of life.

b. The memory and the will of the reprobate-Christians not contain the desire to go to heaven, or to have everlasting life, or to persevere to the end of life.

**THEIR IDENTITY **

They are “reprobate-Christians” whose names taken out from the Book of Life for their vehement rejection of God and His grace.

They are all predestined to hell before the creation of the world.

Their memory and will, not contain the desire to go to heaven, or to have everlasting life, or to persevere to the end of life.

Practically there is no real difference between the reprobates who has some connection with Christianity and those reprobates who has no connection at all.

As you see MT1926 only the reprobate (Christians) can lose their salvation, as they are all predestined to hell before the foundation of the world.

There are only reprobates and elect, there is no between position.

According the Catholic Theology, every member of the entire human race belong one of the two groups.

Which group do you belong to MT1926? – Don’t have to answer.

I know with absolute certainty which group I belong to.

God bless.

LatinRight

 

[MT1926]

Which group do you belong to MT1926? – Don’t have to answer.

I am more than willing to answer with a Bible verses.

1 Corinthians 4:3-5 I do not even judge myself. 4 I am not aware of anything against myself, but I am not thereby acquitted. It is the Lord who judges me. 5 Therefore do not pronounce judgment before the time, before the Lord comes, who will bring to light the things now hidden in darkness and will disclose the purposes of the heart. Then every man will receive his commendation from God.

If St. Paul doesn’t claim to know he is of the elect, neither will I. When the time comes I want to be judged, not given a free pass because I believe I was among the elect. I know I am not perfect and will accept whatever judgement given me by our Lord.

I know with absolute certainty which group I belong to.

God bless.

LatinRight

This sounds like the sin of presumption. I think you need to talk about this with you priest.

You can copy and paste all of the verses you want, but I can guarantee, that you will never find a verse that promises that you will be protected from self deception on this matter.

God Bless Latin

Please make an appointment with your priest, who can do a better job discussing this than I can.

 

[LatinRight]

God bless MT1926,

I don’t say this to criticize you, I say this with love.

Please read verses 1 Cor.4:1-5, plus read the explanation on 1 Cor.4:1-5 as well.

St. Paul also repeatedly claims he is an Apostle of the Lord Jesus Christ, Rom.1:1; Rom.11:13; 1 Cor.1:1; 1 Cor.9:1-2; etc. – He was more than sure he is an elect.

He even declared a Christian/elect don’t lose salvation, please see: Rom.8:37-38; 2 Cor.5:5-10 etc. Please see as well: Predestination of the elect. – DE FIDE Dogma.

In 1 Cor.4:4-5; St. Paul speaking his work and the judgment of his work, which is described in 1 Cor.3:12-15.

Unfortunately some Catholic misunderstand 1 Cor.4:4-5.

Another issue; if you obey God in 2 Cor.13:5-6; etc. you will know your position.

MESSAGE OF THE LORD JESUS CHRIST

John 5:24;

“Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears my word and believes him who sent me, HAS EVERLASTING LIFE; he does NOT come into judgment, but has passed FROM DEATH to LIFE.”

Do you think MT1926, if I believe the above declaration of the Lord Jesus Christ I commit the mortal sin of presumption?

EVERLASTING LIFE = ELECT = LIFE IN HEAVEN WITH GOD FOREVER

If you read my post # 283, #284, # 285, you know exactly who are those who lose salvation.

Only the reprobates who have been predestined to hell before the foundation of the world. – What conclusion you can make from that???

If you read the following theological facts in the light of my posts # 283, #284, # 285.

What conclusion can you make regarding your position of elect or a reprobate-“Christian”?

THE CONTENTS OF THE MEMORY AND THE WILL OF THE REPROBATE-CHRISTIANS

1. God did not predestine the reprobate-Christians to heaven.
   God did not put into the memory and the will of the reprobate-Christians the desire to go to heaven.
2. God did not give the reprobate- Christians the gift of everlasting life.
   God did not put into the memory and the will of the reprobate-Christians the desire to have everlasting life. – How could God give the reprobate-Christians His gift of everlasting life when God predestined all of them to hell before the foundation of the world?
3. God did not give the reprobate-Christians His gift of final perseverance.
   God did not put into the memory and the will of the reprobate-Christians the desire to persevere to the end of life.

SUMMARY OF THE CONTENTS OF THE MEMORY AND THE WILL OF THE REPROBATE-CHRISTIANS

The memory and the will of the reprobate-Christians:

1. The memory and the will is not contains the desire to go to heaven.
2. The memory and the will is not contains the desire to have everlasting life.
3. The memory and the will is not contains the desire to persevere to the end of life.

The memory and the will of the reprobate-Christians not contain the desire to go to heaven, or to have everlasting life, or to persevere to the end of life.

No one can contradict the above statements. – Based on the Catholic DE FIDE Dogma: Predestination of the elect, De gratia Christi 25, 26:, De gratia et libero arbitrio 16, 32:, Fhilippians 2:13; 1 Corinthians 4:7.

Please show it your Priest.

Even better if you show your Priest, posts # 283, #284, # 285, that would be a real spiritual feasts.

MT1926, If you have a strong desire and will to go to heaven, to have everlasting life, desire and will to persevere to the end of your life, YOU HAVE THEM BECAUSE GOD PUT THEM into your memory and the will.

St. Paul also asked: “What do you have that you did not receive"?

It is obvious: If someone has the strong desire to go to haven, to have everlasting life, live with God in Heaven, this desire is THE RESULTS OF GOD’S ELECTION AND HIS PREDESTINATION of the person and God’s gift of everlasting life with the desire of everlasting life with God in Heaven.

ONLY the memory and the will of the elect contains the desire to go to heaven, to have everlasting life and to live in Heaven forever with God.

“For those who believe, no proof is necessary. For those who don’t believe, no proof is possible.” ― Stuart Chase.

God bless.

LatinRight

 

[MT1926]

God bless MT1926,

I don’t say this to criticize you, I say this with love.

No criticism taken. I totally understand the love of Jesus in our hearts. If I didn’t I would have dropped this conversation days ago. I also, don’t mean to criticize you, but you are taking the Biblical “pick and choose” method, that evangelicals use, and applying it to the Church Dogmas.

From your previous post.
According to the Trent:

If we have learned it from GOD’S SPECIAL REVELATION we can know it with certainty, THAT WE HAVE God’s great gift of perseverance unto the end, which means we are God’s elect.

So, we have a GREEN LIGHT to believe right now from God’s special revelation with CERTAINTY that we are among God’s elect.

First off the Dogma I searched on this says

1. Without special Divine Revelation no one can know with the certainty of faith, if he be in the state of grace.

Once again you seemed to have skipped a very important word. Divine means a direct personal revelation. The way it was explained to me is, God would have to actually whisper in your ear. It’s not I felt the Holy Spirit reveal it to me. In either case this is still considered personal revelation (not yet Divine). You would have to take this private revelation to the Church for examination before you can claim it falls under the criteria for this Dogma.

St. Paul also repeatedly claims he is an Apostle of the Lord Jesus Christ, Rom.1:1; Rom.11:13; 1 Cor.1:1; 1 Cor.9:1-2; etc. – He was more than sure he is an elect.

I think you are picking and choosing verses again.

1 Corinthians 1:18 but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.

US? why doesn’t he say you since he knows he is already saved

Galatians 6:7-9
7Do not be deceived; God is not mocked, for whatever a man sows, that he will also reap.8For he who sows to his own flesh will from the flesh reap corruption; but he who sows to the Spirit will from the Spirit reap eternal life.9And let us not grow weary in well-doing, for in due season we shall reap, if we do not lose heart.

Once again WE not YOU. Also, are you able to claim with 100% certainty that at no point for the rest of your life you might not fall by sowing to your flesh?

I’m not going to answer the rest of your post because you are just repeating everything I already agreed with.

Yes there are elect and reprobates. However, I am sticking to my guns. You cannot know without “DIVINE REVELATION” (DIRECTLY FROM GOD AND INVESTIGATED AND CONFIRMED BY THE ONE HOLY APOSTOLIC CATHOLIC CHURCH) that you have absolutely certainty that you are a member of the elect.

Please I beg you, go speak to your Priest.

I am worried about you, I have already spoken with Dr. David Anders and his first question was, “Did you tell me this fellow is a Catholic”? What I said above about Divine Revelation is directly form him.

Please, go speak with your priest. If it is your priest that is teaching you this, please go speak to your Bishop.

God Bless

 

[LatinRight]

God bless MT1926,

Thanks you for your post.

To tell the truth, first I just dismissed your concern, I thought no worries.

Then I read your post again and again, and the anathema came into my mind.

I looked up in the internet what anathema means, I combined it with your post then I had a shock of my life.

I brief history of my Christianity:

In 1988 when I became a Christian I lived on my 16 acres land.

I was an atheist with a very little Bible knowledge.

Both the Jehovah’s Witnesses and those who were in the Bahai Faith tried to convert me into their religions.

Those who were in the Bahai Faith told me the Bible is outdated, it is not for us any longer, but only their religious books.

One day while working on the land just about all day thinking: Is that true, the Word of God is outdated?

Night time when I went into the house, I had incredible inspiration to open the Bible and read it, I was an atheist, I never opened the Bible ages.

So, I couldn’t resist I opened it and started to read, I not only opened the right page, but I started to read the very Bible verse which gave me the answer what I been thinking all day:

1 Peter 1:24-25; For, “All people are like grass,
and all their glory is like the flowers of the field;
the grass withers and the flowers fall,
but the word of the Lord endures forever.”

I have to admit, I was really scared.

How it is possible, I not only to open the right page but to start to read the very Bible verse which gives me the answer?

The couple of days later the same thing happened.

All day I been thinking, if the Bible is true, is it possible we have everlasting life?

Night time I went into house, at once started irresistible inspiration to open the Bible and to read. Same thing happened.

Not only opened the right page, but I started to read the very Bible verse which gave me the answer what I been thinking all day:

1 John 2:17; “And the world is passing away along with its desires, but whoever does the will of God abides forever.”

This time I was scared even more, yet a couple of days later happened the same thing with another subject.

At this time I realized with an absolute certainty, God exists and the Bible is true.

I started to read the Bible, the New Covenant, it was dry, sometimes I read even a half page and I didn’t know what I have read, but I went true with the reading.

I started to read it again the second time, but this time with more attention
when I read it about half way, I dedicated myself to God, continued with the reading, not too much change.

About a week later an incredible experience happened with me.

It was like I burning with fire.

It was unspeakable joy, at the beginning I didn’t know what happening with me, later I know, I didn’t know how I know, but I know it is God’s gift of Baptism of the Holy Spirit.

At that time I realized first time, there is not only natural world but a spiritual world as well, which I never knew before.

This gift of God change my life totally and in every way, the grass and the trees become greener, my thinking changed.

Two weeks I cried from the joy, not exactly all the time.

Continue

 

[LatinRight]

Continuation

Just a couple of change among many changes:

I loved the Bible, at that time the Bible came alive, when I read it the tears came from my eyes from the joy. – After many years sometimes still happening.

I have grown-up in Europe, real anti Semitism there.

I was that much anti-Semitic, I was sorry I didn’t born Hitler’s time and I wasn’t an SS officer to kill the Jewish people, God instantly changed my heart and put into my heart ten times more love then hatred was.

[Maybe the reason Evangelicals love the Jewish people, because they have the same baptism of the Holy Spirit then I have.]

God instantly gave me incredibly faith and love, also gave me His spiritual gift to speak and pry in tongues.

God has given me incredibly love and zeal to tell the message of the Bible to everyone. – Still have the same zeal.

So, I take seriously your suggestion MT1926 and I contact my Priest and make an appointment ASAP.

I don’t know what will happen. The way I see it at this time, I don’t have too much hope that I can stay in the Catholic Church.

I know the anathema is still operative.

I know now, even when I joined to the Catholic Church my faith was much greater then what I can have as a Catholic. – I didn’t know that time, there is a limit on our faith.

If I wouldn’t believe I’m among the elect, after what God has given me and changed me, that would be a total betrayer of the Lord Jesus Christ.

I cannot not to believe what I believe, it doesn’t matter how hard I would try to reduce me faith. – In particular after I have learned those wonderful doctrines of the Catholic Church.

My faith disqualified me to join the Catholic Church at the beginning, but at that time I didn’t know, I’m not free to believe I’m saved/elect.

So, for me to join to the Catholic Church was an invincible ignorance and it was until I read your post.

At this time I realized the reason Catholic threaten to believe they are saved.

Until now, for me to stay in the CC and being a Catholic was an invincible ignorance, but not any longer. Not very nice to live under anathema.

But I make an appointment with my Priest and see what will happen.

Think about MT1926, 2 + 2 = 4, how sure are you that 2 + 2 = 4?

I’m sure you are absolutely certain that 2 + 2 = 4.

IN THE SAME WAY AS ABOVE

John 5:24;

“Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears my word and believes him who sent me, HAS EVERLASTING LIFE; he does NOT come into judgment, but has passed FROM DEATH to LIFE.”

I’m absolutely certain that Christ telling the truth and the results as follows:

EVERLASTING LIFE = ELECT = LIFE IN HEAVEN FOREVER WITH GOD.

After God has changed me and after what God has given me and the relationship and trust I have with the Lord Jesus Christ to reduce my faith, and doubting I’m His disciple that would be betrayer of the Lord Jesus Christ. – Which I could not do and I will never do!!!

I will tell you MT1926 my appointment with my Priest.

I say with St. Paul; “For to me, to live is Christ, and to die is gain.” – Phil.1:21.

God bless.

LatinRight

 

[MT1926]

God bless MT1926,

Thanks you for your post.

To tell the truth, first I just dismissed your concern, I thought no worries.

Then I read your post again and again, and the anathema came into my mind.

I looked up in the internet what anathema means, I combined it with your post then I had a shock of my life.

First let me say, thank you for sharing your story with me. It sounds like a powerful conversion.

Second, I think the word anathema is a little harsh in this situation. We don’t become anathema because we are incorrectly interpreting something the Church teaches.

Here’s a good article from Jimmy Akin:

catholic.com/magazine/print-edition/anathema

Here’s some quotes:

Yet the penalty was used so seldom that it was removed from the 1983 Code of Canon Law. This means that today the penalty of anathema does not exist in Church law. The new Code provided that, “When this Code goes into effect, the following are abrogated: 1º the Code of Canon Law promulgated in 1917 . . . 3º any universal or particular penal laws whatsoever issued by the Apostolic See, unless they are contained in this Code” (CIC [1983] 6 §1). The penalty of anathema was not renewed in the new Code, and thus it was abrogated when the Code went into effect on January 1, 1983.

With this as background, the absurdity of the things said by anti-Catholics about the anathemas pronounced by Trent and other councils is plain. A number of errors are nearly ubiquitous in anti-Catholic writings:

1. An anathema sentenced a person to hell. This is not the case. Sentencing someone to hell is a power that is God’s alone, and the Church cannot exercise it.

1. An anathema was a sure sign that a person would go to hell. Again, not true. Anathemas were only warranted by very grave sins, but there was no reason why the offender could not repent, and those who repent aren’t damned.

1. An anathema was a sure sign that a person was not in a state of grace. This is not true for two reasons: (a) The person may have repented since the time the anathema was issued, and (b) the person may not have been in a state of mortal sin at the time the anathema was issued.

He has 5 more points but basically, I highly doubt you are anathema.

So, I take seriously your suggestion MT1926 and I contact my Priest and make an appointment ASAP.

Thank you

I don’t know what will happen. The way I see it at this time, I don’t have too much hope that I can stay in the Catholic Church.

I know the anathema is still operative.

First of all read the article above. You are in no way, shape or form anathema. If not fully understanding a teaching makes you anathema then I would say quite a few people on this forum are anathema. That is one of the reasons I am here. To learn and be correct when I am wrong. If you read some of my first posts on this forum you would of said to me…Are you sure you’re Catholic.

Second what do you mean you don’t have to much hope staying in the Catholic Church?

You posted this earlier

God wants us that WE KNOW for many reasons, one reason is the Eucharist, that we have His gift of Everlasting Life which is protected with His special grace the gift of final perseverance UNTIL THE DAY WE DIE.

How does a guy with this much faith in the Eucharist leave the Catholic Church over a misunderstanding. AND THAT IS ALL THIS IS, A MISUNDERSTANDING.

You already know we need the Body of Christ. You’re not going to get it anywhere else but here.

Until now, for me to stay in the CC and being a Catholic was an invincible ignorance, but not any longer. Not very nice to live under anathema.

But I make an appointment with my Priest and see what will happen.

Not to beat a dead horse, but you are not anathema. From my understanding of Jimmy Akin’s article “anathema” is part of the Code of Canon Law, which can and has changed over time, it is not Church Dogma.

I would like you to do me one more favor. I want you to start listening to Dr. David Ander’s called to communion show.

youtube.com/watch?v=qnM2AD_zcq0

Dr. Anders was a Calvinist, who believed he was among the elect, and after studying discovered the Catholic Church is the one true Church founded by Jesus Christ. He explains predestination better than anyone.

Watch this episode at the 12:45 mark. The caller explains she was a Catholic but became protestant because she prefers knowing that she is going to heaven because of her faith and had troubles in not being sure of her faith in Catholicism. She asks how Dr. Anders was able to get over the change of knowing he was elect to now not knowing he is elect. I am so busy at work so I usually binge listen to old episodes on Podcast when I’m working at home on the Farm. I was behind and didn’t get to this episode until yesterday. I truly believe I was behind schedule so I would remember to share it with you.

Let me know what you think of his answer. Make sure you listen to the entire answer. Especially at the 18:50 mark when he goes into explain why the Catholic position is so much more comfortable for him now. I need to memorize his answer because what he says is exactly the way I feel when it comes to my salvation.

God Bless

 

[LatinRight]

First let me say, thank you for sharing your story with me. It sounds like a powerful conversion.

Second, I think the word anathema is a little harsh in this situation. We don’t become anathema because we are incorrectly interpreting something the Church teaches.

Here’s a good article from Jimmy Akin:

catholic.com/magazine/print-edition/anathema

Here’s some quotes:

He has 5 more points but basically, I highly doubt you are anathema.

Thank you

First of all read the article above. You are in no way, shape or form anathema. If not fully understanding a teaching makes you anathema then I would say quite a few people on this forum are anathema. That is one of the reasons I am here. To learn and be correct when I am wrong. If you read some of my first posts on this forum you would of said to me…Are you sure you’re Catholic.

Second what do you mean you don’t have to much hope staying in the Catholic Church?

You posted this earlier

How does a guy with this much faith in the Eucharist leave the Catholic Church over a misunderstanding. AND THAT IS ALL THIS IS, A MISUNDERSTANDING.

You already know we need the Body of Christ. You’re not going to get it anywhere else but here.

Not to beat a dead horse, but you are not anathema. From my understanding of Jimmy Akin’s article “anathema” is part of the Code of Canon Law, which can and has changed over time, it is not Church Dogma.

I would like you to do me one more favor. I want you to start listening to Dr. David Ander’s called to communion show.

youtube.com/watch?v=qnM2AD_zcq0

Dr. Anders was a Calvinist, who believed he was among the elect, and after studying discovered the Catholic Church is the one true Church founded by Jesus Christ. He explains predestination better than anyone.

Watch this episode at the 12:45 mark. The caller explains she was a Catholic but became protestant because she prefers knowing that she is going to heaven because of her faith and had troubles in not being sure of her faith in Catholicism. She asks how Dr. Anders was able to get over the change of knowing he was elect to now not knowing he is elect. I am so busy at work so I usually binge listen to old episodes on Podcast when I’m working at home on the Farm. I was behind and didn’t get to this episode until yesterday. I truly believe I was behind schedule so I would remember to share it with you.

Let me know what you think of his answer. Make sure you listen to the entire answer. Especially at the 18:50 mark when he goes into explain why the Catholic position is so much more comfortable for him now. I need to memorize his answer because what he says is exactly the way I feel when it comes to my salvation.

God Bless

**God bless MT1926,

Thank you for your post.**

Jimmy Akin’s article is very good, explained everything.

It was a misunderstanding. It is all fine, I don’t concern about that subject.

About Dr. Anders. Unfortunately three years ago I lost 90 % of my hearing so I can’t hear his teachings.

It would be interesting to know his teaching on the subject, but I only can study printed material.

At this stage I cannot imagine that better not to know our future than to know.

If he has any printed material on the subject I would like to read it.

So, all Fine. God bless.

LatinRight

 

[MT1926]

**God bless MT1926,

Thank you for your post.**

Jimmy Akin’s article is very good, explained everything.

It was a misunderstanding. It is all fine, I don’t concern about that subject.

About Dr. Anders. Unfortunately three years ago I lost 90 % of my hearing so I can’t hear his teachings.

It would be interesting to know his teaching on the subject, but I only can study printed material.

At this stage I cannot imagine that better not to know our future than to know.

If he has any printed material on the subject I would like to read it.

So, all Fine. God bless.

LatinRight

Latin. Thanks for the response and thanks for reading Jimmy’s article.

I’m sorry about your hearing. I really enjoy Dr. Anders, wish you could listen to him.

He has a website with his articles here:

calvin2catholic.com/

I typed out a transcript of the episode I wanted you to listen to. I hope this helps.

**Tom Price: **
Let’s get to the phones here at 1-800-585-9396 with a line open for you right now. Let’s go to a Jennifer now in Morton Illinois listening to us on Saint Bernadette radio. Jennifer what’s your question today?

Jennifer:
Hi I feel like I am torn between Catholicism and Protestantism. I was raised Catholic but I’ve had a lot of protestant influence in my life and I think……… I know you’ve made the journey from Protestantism to Catholicism and I would like to know what you think about………I guess what set me over the edge was….I prefer in the Protestant world knowing that I’m going to heaven because of my faith versus in Catholicism you’re not sure and you’re working on it all the time. And I just wonder how you got over that………

Dr. Anders:
Great question! I really appreciate it, thank you so much. I understand what it feels like to be caught between traditions. I definitely experienced that anxiety myself and, well I hope that everyone come to faith in Christ in the Catholic Church. I don’t wish on anybody, the kind of existential angst that I experienced in my own journey. It was considerable, it was tough, and I have a lot of sympathy for people who are having difficulty with it.

So you are absolutely right that the Protestant tradition teaches that a man could have infallible certainly, a woman for that matter to, a person could have infallible certainty of their salvation. That is a dogma of the Protestant faith, especially the Calvinist tradition. So Westminster confession of faith, this is a Presbyterian confession of faith, teaches as a dogma that a person can have in fallible, they use the word infallible, infallible certainty of salvation. OK that’s the dogma.

Now there are only two ways, and consider what’s being offered, what’s being proposed, is that I can know within infallible certainty, from a Protestant, so the claim is made, a future event.

Right? That’s what is being claimed. That’s what is being taught. That I can have infallible certainty of a future event. Namely my own eternal salvation in heaven. Right?

How could I know that?

How could I know that?

There are only two ways you could know that, if that were true. I don’t think it’s true, only 2 ways you could know.

One of them would be direct revelation from God. Right? Because we’re talking about the future.

God could lean down and say, Yo Dave! I promise you, you will have eternal life, period. Directly, he could say that to me.

The other, and this is the way they actually operate. OK? The other is an inference from religious experience. So the Protestant argument would run like this………

It would say…. God promises eternal life unconditionally, to those that have true faith. Alright? That’s the argument.

Now I don’t think Scripture says that.

I think they’re exegesis of the Bible is bad, but does the promise, that’s the last of position. God promises with infallible certainty of salvation to those that have true faith. Alright? But there’s a condition in there. You have to be subjectively certain that you have true faith. Alright? So you have to be able to accurately discern the quality of your religious experience, to know that your faith is so called “True Faith”.

Now here’s the difficulty if your Protestant. Everybody knows the experience of those, like in the parable of the four soil’s, who give some public evidence of faith and then fall away. And the common retort in Protestant circles is well they never really had true faith. They’re faith was spurious, it was a genuine.

OK, well that raises a question.

Let us say that I believe myself to have true faith. How can I know that my faith is not spurious faith? That it is not the appearance of faith and not the genuine article?

In coarse the reformers address that.

John Calvin, who really is the author of this theology, deals with the problem of spurious faith. That some people can give the appearance of true faith, but their, their subsequent falling away shows they never really had it.

Alright? So you’re left with a dilemma.

How do I discern if my faith is real genuine faith or spurious faith, that might fade.?

In which case my conviction, my subjective convention, convection that I have a eternal life is in fact false. That it’s not genuine.

A friend of mine put the dilemma this way, he says the elect know for sure that they’re going to heaven and I might be one of them.

OK?

Continued in next post…

 

[MT1926]

Dr. Anders

And so as a practical matter, I think many Protestants have the experience of vacillating either between a presumptuous claim to absolute assurance. I know, that I know, that I know, that I know, that I’m going to heaven. That, that is immune to falsification. So they could sin, they could do various other things and tell themselves, well I’m absolutely certain that my salvation is not based on my works and all that other stuff.

So I know I’m going to go to heaven, in spite of the evidence, presumption or despair. Kind of vacillating between presumption and despair.

Because what the traditional offers is spurious. It offers something that we couldn’t possibly in principle know, namely the future. And it relies ultimately, for a very subjective determination about my own interior states.

The whole dynamic of puritanism in the 17th century was born out of this this inner anxiety. How do I discern if I have the marks of true faith interiorly?

So the claim, that you have absolutely assurance, is really a false promise.

And the history of Protestantism shows that, that you tend to go in one of two directions. Either those that tend to antinomianism, which is just a complete disregard for the quality of their moral life and a dogged determination to declare…………

I’m going to heaven and nothing you can tell me will convince me otherwise.

You know without regard for the quality of my internal life, or despair.

Now so I don’t really think it’s as comforting, at the end of the day, as it is it’s alleged to be, that position.

**I find the Catholic position to be far more comforting. Far more comforting, far more rational, and far more assuring.
**
What is the Catholic position?

Well, sometimes Protestants will say well Catholics are left in doubt, about their salvation. They’re walking around biting their nails and in anxiety all the time.
**
That is not true! That is not the Catholic point of view.**
**
The catholic position is this.**

I don’t know the future! I don’t need to know the future! But I do have infallible, not subjective certainty. I have infallible objective certainty, about where the means of grace lie. Where they are to be found.

Christ promised if you abide in me and my words abide in you, you’ll bear much fruit. That whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood, abides in me.

And he said to the Apostles "whoever’s sins you forgiven are forgiven, whoever’s sins you retain are retained.
**
Now those are the objective words of Christ. They don’t depend on anything interior to me.**

So when I go to the confessional and I know that I want to be reconciled to Christ. And the priest judges that I want to be reconciled to Christ. He’s an objective judge in this matter, I’m not judging in my own case, he’s judging that I actually have contrition. And he says I absolve you of your sins in the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit, I have objective certainty, that it is actually accomplished in my life as he says so.
**
That the sacrament is objectively efficacious.**
**
I know that I am reconciled to God.**

**Then when I go to Holy Communion, I know the words of Christ are true. **

If you eat my flesh and drink my blood you have life. There I am eating His flesh drinking His blood. HAVING LIFE!

And then what does Jesus promises?

Whoever perseveres to the end will be saved. Matthew 25

So I know I’m in the church, I know the Sacraments work, I know Christ is genuinely offer to me in the sacraments, and I know that if I persevere in this faith, in this way, to the end, I will be saved! (I gotta memorize this)

So that doesn’t cause despair at all!

That gives me, number one, tremendous hope in St. Paul promise it Philippians.

He who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion.

God desires my salvation and it is there, cooperating with my will, as I cooperate with Him, He’s there giving me that Grace to sustain me in the faith, with all my life long. But it also gives me a motive to continue in my life of faith.

If I persevere to the end, like this, I’ll be saved.
**
So I’m not resting on my laurels,** (that says a lot to me) I can’t walk away, you know tomorrow, and rely on some experience I had a 1972, to get me to heaven.

I’ve got to remain in Christ, and abide in Him. It’s an ongoing motive for continuing conversion, but not one in Craven fear with no assurance. One that gets me very positive assurance.

Saint Thomas Aquinas says, not having infallible certainly of the future doesn’t mean that I cannot make a conjectural judgment that I have Grace. I can’t have that certainty, but I can make a conjectural judgment, with a moral certainty, that I am in the Grace of God, by the evidence of my life. That I have faith, that I’m contrite for my sins, that I see that I’m growing in my moral life………

All these things are positive evidence of the grace of God is active in my life and are a sure foundation for hope.

God Bless Latin. I hope this helps. It was eye opening to me. Never will I shy away again when someone asks “Have you been saved?”

 

[InOmnemTerram]

You transcribed all of that, MT1926? That’s very generous of you, thanks for doing so.