Trent Horn debate with James White: watch here!

[MT1926]

Eph.2:1;
“And you he made alive, who were dead in trespasses and sins.”

Do you believe MT you are still dead in trespasses and sins or alive in Christ Jesus? – One or the other, there is no middle ground.

Eph.2:8-9;
“For by grace you have been saved through faith, …”

Just as no one can be half way in Christ, the same way no one can be saved half way.

In Christ we have been saved/elect, outside Christ we are condemned (if we stay forever outside Christ we are reprobates, predestined to hell before the foundation of the world)!!!

Agree there is no middle ground, no half way. However, how can you guarantee that you will not some day stumble into trespasses and sin.

Where are you MT, in Christ and saved/elect or outside Christ in a condemned state and you are not a Catholic?

There is no between position, so you must know your present standing, one or the other!!!

So which one MT from the two possibility???

To be quite honest with you I don’t think about it. I am not the judge of my salvation, God will judge me. I am humble enough to know God knows me better than I do and He knows what is best for me. I accept the fact that I am not perfect. I will thank God for what ever punishment or reward He sees fit to give me.

I am at peace with this decision. No fear, No regret.

If you say I don’t know, that means according to Eph.2:8 you have no faith in the word of God you are not in Christ, meaning you are in the condemned state.

Or it means you are humble enough to admit you don’t know your own heart as well as God does.

If you die right now you know where would you go.

I actually long for purgatory. Even if I did absolutely nothing all day I can not go to bed without taking a shower. Couldn’t imagine having to spend eternity with the tiniest of sin on my soul, I long for the love of Christ to perfect my soul in Purgatory.

Do you think MT less then 100 % faith qualifies you to be in Christ???

To tell the truth, I don’t believe less then 100 % faith would qualify me to be in Christ or to be saved.

I certainly don’t let anyone to destroy my faith which is God’s gift.

I don’t think anyone alive knows what 100% faith is. The only person we know of that had 100% faith was our blessed Mother. That is the reason we say she was sinless. See here’s the problem, how can you say you have 100% faith if you sin? If you have 100% faith in Christ and you believe a part of faith is Christ not wanting us to sin, then the logical conclusion is, if you sin you do not have 100% faith. Like you said there is no middle ground, you either have 100% faith and never sin or you sin and don’t have 100% faith.

God Bless

 

[MT1926]

MT do you have a strong desire to go to heaven, do you have a strong desire to have everlasting life with God in heaven, do you have a strong desire to persevere until the end of your life?

Today I do, but this is not a guarantee that something might not happen in my life that will turn me away from God. It doesn’t matter what my desire is today, what matters is what is my desire everyday for the rest of my life.

We have covered the elect and reprobate so I will no longer respond to any remarks you post on this topic. You have your opinions and choose to follow your opinions over the teachings of the Church.

If you would like to continue to discuss the Sin of Presumption I am game. If you would like to continue discussing Bible verse you believe tell you that you are among the elect I am game. I am also interested in your thoughts on the verses I responded to.

However, the fact that you disagree with everything I present from Dr. Anders, Jimmy Akin, Trent Horn, Tim Staples, etc…only proves that you are standing alone. I think the real question we need to get to is why you feel they are all wrong and you are right? I’m talking about feelings here, not the way you interpret Church teachings. For you to stand in opposition to the some of the smartest Apologists we have today tells me there is a deep rooted issue you need to deal with before your subconscious will let you open up to the truth. Maybe you are having troubles letting go of teachings before you were Catholic? Maybe you have a fear of the unknown? I’m not sure but am willing to discuss it.

God Bless

 

[LatinRight]

However, the fact that you disagree with everything I present from Dr. Anders, Trent Horn, Tim Staples, etc…only proves that you are standing alone. I think the real question we need to get to is why you feel they are all wrong and you are right? I’m talking about feelings here, not the way you interpret Church teachings. For you to stand in opposition to the some of the smartest Apologists we have today tells me there is a deep rooted issue you need to deal with before your subconscious will let you open up to the truth. Maybe you are having troubles letting go of teachings before you were Catholic? Maybe you have a fear of the unknown? I’m not sure but am willing to discuss it.

God Bless

God bless MT and every readers of the CAF,

I SAID
I guess, sooner a later we all have to learn:
Our salvation is by Grace alone, Faith alone, we have been justified apart from our works.

YOUR REPLY WAS

This is not Catholic teaching. We are not saved by Faith alone. We are saved by God’s Grace through faith and works.

**Here’s a comment from Tim Staples that I kept in my Notebook. **

Quote: The Catholic Church teaches there are no works anyone can perform to merit the initial grace of salvation that comes to us through faith and baptism (Mark 16:16; Romans 6:3-4; Eph. 2:8-9).

To attempt to be saved before entering into Christ is futile. In John 15:5, Jesus said, “Apart from me you can do nothing.” We believe that as Catholics.

In fact, Gal. 5:1-6, 6:7-9, Eph. 2:10, James 2:24, Matt. 12:37, John 15:1-6 etc. teach us that once we enter into Christ we must then begin to “work out our salvation with fear and trembling” (Phil. 2:10) in order for us to remain in Christ and in order for us to finally be rewarded with final salvation if we are faithful unto death (Romans 2:6-7; Gal. 6:7-9; Matt. 25:31-46; Matt. 10:22; Rev. 2:10, etc.).

All of this requires us to cooperate with God’s grace in our lives.

So yes, we are justified by faith as Scripture teaches. But we are not justified by faith alone, if by that you mean our cooperation with grace has no part to play in our salvation (or our “works” done in Christ - see Romans 11:22) because that directly contradicts Scripture (James 2:24, etc.).

You claim we Catholics are claiming we have “some power to justify ourselves - in other words, [we Catholics] are boasting, as [Romans 3:]27 states.” That is not true. End quote.

The truth is, many teachers of the Catholic Church use to teach Salvation/Justification by Faith + Works, but this teaching is** corrected by the Catholic Church** and I’m sure Tim Staples corrected his teachings too and he doesn’t teach Faith + Works Salvation/Justification any longer.

The original teaching of the Catholic Church is: Salvation/Justification by Formed Faith Alone.

This is what the Protestants** rediscovered** but this is the original teachings of the Catholic Church not the Protestant’s invention.

JUSTIFICATION BY FAITH ALONE? by James Akin

Quote: “In fact, in TRADITIONAL WORKS OF CATHOLIC THEOLOGY, one regularly encounters the statement that FORMED FAITH IS JUSTIFYING FAITH. If one has formed faith, one is justified. Period. End quote. Emphasis mine.

**Sola fide formata = (formed) FAITH ALONE
THE COMPOSITE OF GOD’S GIFT OF FORMED FAITH:

a. BELIEF (Unconditional BELIEF in what God says.)

b. HOPE (Unconditional TRUST in God.)

c. CHARITY (Unconditional LOVE for God.)**

Continue

 

[LatinRight]

Continuation

**JUSTIFICATION BY FAITH by Peter Kreeft
**
Dr. Peter Kreeft is one of the most popular and widely-read Catholic authors of today.
Dr. Peter Kreeft is on The Advisory Board of the Catholic Education resource Center.

Quote: The Protestant Reformation began when a Catholic monk rediscovered a Catholic doctrine in a Catholic book.

The monk, of course, was Luther; the doctrine was justification by faith;

“The just (justified, saved) shall live [have eternal life] by faith [in Christ]” (Rom 1: 17)

**Where then do good works come in? **

In Christian Liberty, Luther explains that after the great liberation about faith — that we are saved by faith in Christ’s work, not by our works — comes a great liberation about works:

They need not be done slavishly, to buy our way into heaven, to pile up merits or Brownie points with God, but can be done freely and spontaneously and naturally, out of gratitude to God — not to get to heaven but because heaven has already gotten to us.

Thus they can be done for the sake of our neighbor, not for our own sake, to purchase salvation.

And this is winsome. No one wants to be loved as someone else’s good deed for the day. End quote.

So I suggest for you too MT to take out from your Notebook the incorrect teachings of salvation and put into your Notebook the correct teaching of salvation which is:

**Salvation/Justification takes place by Grace alone, by Faith alone, the person is Justified apart from works.
**

THE CORRECT TEACHINGS OF THE CATOHOLIC CHURCH ON SALVATION / JUSTIFICATION

HOW TO READ THE NEW TESTAMENT By Etienne Charpentier

Nihil obstate: Father Anton Cowan

Imprimatur: Monsignor John Crowley, VG Westminster, 28 May 1985

Quote: “There is ONE CENTRAL QUESTION here: how can we become RIGHTEOUS and be SAVED?

We NOT justified by what we do (works, observing law) but by FAITH IN CHRIST.

Salvation is NOT a matter of achieving but RECEIVING IT FREELY from God hands, in faith.” End quote.

JOINT DECLARATION ON THE DOCTRINE OF JUSTIFICATION by the Lutheran World Federation and the Catholic Church

3/17 Justification is SOLELY due to the forgiving and renewing mercy that God imparts as a gift and we RECEIVE IN FAITH, and NEVER CAN MERIT IT ANY WAY.

4/25 We confess together that sinners are justified by faith in the saving action of God in Christ. WHATEVER in the JUSTIFIED PRECEDES or FOLLOWS the free gift of faith is NEITHER THE BASIS of justification NOR MERITS it.

4/27.The Catholic understanding also sees faith as fundamental in justification. For without faith, no justification can take place. Thus justifying grace never becomes a human possession. While Catholic teaching emphasizes the renewal of life by justifying grace, this RENEVAL in FAITH, HOPE, LOVE is always dependent on God’s unfathomable grace and contributes NOTHING to JUSTIFICATION.

4/37 We confess together that good works - a Christian life lived in faith, hope and love - FOLLOW JUSTIFICATION and ARE ITS FRUITS.

Continue

 

[LatinRight]

Continuation

ANNEX TO THE OFFICIAL COMMON STATEMENT

C) Justification takes place "by grace alone“ (JD 15 and 16), by faith alone, the person is justified „apart from works“ (Rom 3:28, cf. JD 25). "Grace creates faith not only when faith begins in a person but as long as faith lasts“ (Thomas Aquinas, S. Th.II/II 4, 4 ad 3).The working of God’s grace does not exclude human action: God effects everything, the willing and the achievement, therefore, we are called to strive (cf. Phil 2:12 ff). "As soon as the Holy Spirit has initiated his work of regeneration and renewal in us through the Word and the holy sacraments, it is certain that we can and must cooperate by the power of the Holy Spirit…“ (The Formula of Concord, FC SD II,64f; BSLK 897,37ff).

D) Grace as fellowship of the justified with God in faith, hope and love is always received from the salvific and creative work of God (cf. JD 27). But it is nevertheless the responsibility of the justified not to waste this grace but to live in it. The exhortation to do good works is the exhortation to practice the faith (cf. BSLK 197,45). The good works of the justified „should be done in order to confirm their call, that is, lest they fall from their call by sinning again“ (Apol. XX,13, BSLK 316,18-24; with reference to 2 Pet. 1:10. Cf. also FC SD IV,33; BSLK 948,9-23). In this sense Lutherans and Catholics can understand together what is said about the "preservation of grace“ in JD 38 and 39. Certainly, "whatever in the justified precedes or follows the free gift of faith is neither the basis of justification nor merits it“ (JD 25).

1. The doctrine of justification is measure or touchstone for the Christian faith. No teaching may contradict this criterion. In this sense, the doctrine of justification is an "indispensable criterion which constantly serves to orient all the teaching and practice of our churches to Christ“ (JD l8). As such, it has its truth and specific meaning within the overall context of the Church’s fundamental Trinitarian confession of faith. We "share the goal of confessing Christ in all things, who is to be trusted above all things as the one Mediator (1 Tim 2:5-6) through whom God in the Holy Spirit gives himself and pours out his renewing gifts“ (JD 18).

As we see above the balance between faith and works about justification/salvation is 100 % faith and 0 % works.

The above balance makes the possibility for every Catholic that their works could be 100 % supernatural merit, all 100 % works could be done freely out of love for the Glory of God.

If an elect continue to believe Faith + Works Salvation, and **if all his works done to get his salvation or to keep his salvation **at the judgment of his works all his works are wood, hay and straw, all goes up in smoke because rejected by God and he will enter into heaven by Grace alone, by Faith alone because he has no reward at all. – 1 Cor.3:12-15.

This is a great loss because (our position and glory in heaven is determined by God according to the judgment of our works. )

**Supernatural work is: **

Doing something, DECIDED FREELY without the fear of hell,

**work done ** NOT BECAUSE IT WILL HELP US SOMEHOW,

**but because **we want to do it out of SHEER LOVE for the Glory of God, or help other person out of sheer love.

If good work/supernatural work would be condition of our salvation then he would be end up in hell.

I guess sooner or later everyone has to learn:
Salvation/Justification takes place by Grace alone, by Faith alone, the person is Justified apart from works.

If we would believe Salvation by Faith + Works we could never qualify to do good works/supernatural merit because we would HAVE TO WORK for our salvation and we could never decide to work FREELY, WITHOUT any EXTERNAL COERCION or INTERNAL NECESSITY.

Continue

 

[LatinRight]

Continuation

**CONDITIONS THAT OUR WORKS (OUR DEEDS) COUNT FOR ANYTHING

Conditions MUST BE PRESENT to make SUPERNATURAL MERIT possible.**

The meritorious work must be morally good, that is, in accordance with the moral law in its

object, intent, and circumstances.

It MUST be done FREELY, WITHOUT any EXTERNAL COERCION or INTERNAL NECESSITY.

It MUST be SUPERNATURAL, that is, AROUSED and ACCOMPANIED by ACTUAL

GRACE, and proceeding from a SUPERNATURAL motive.

Strictly speaking only a person in the STATE OF GRACE can merit, as defined by the

Church (Denzinger 1576, 1582).

JUSTIFICATION IN CATHOLIC TEACHING by Jimmy Akin

Quote: “The essence of supernatural love is unselfishness—doing something NOT

BECAUSE IT WILL HELP US SOMEHOW, but because we want to do it out of SHEER

LOVE for the other person, whether that person is God or one of our fellow human beings out of the love of God.

This is THE ONLY KIND of love that ultimately pleases God and therefore the ONLY

KIND that ultimately gets us a reward IN heaven.” End quote. Emphasize mine.

**If we not set free to love freely, ** we cannot love.

**If we not set free to freely decide to work, ** we cannot do supernatural work/merit.

We cannot please God with the work we MUST do, because we cannot do it FREELY,

WITHOUT any EXTERNAL COERCION or INTERNAL NECESSITY. **– The work we

MUST do is NOT supernatural work!!!**

MUST always kills our supernatural works/good works.

**Supernatural work is: **

Doing something, DECIDED FREELY without the fear of hell,

**work done **NOT BECAUSE IT WILL HELP US SOMEHOW,

**but because **we want to do it out of SHEER LOVE for the Glory of God, or help other person out of sheer love.

THE KEY TO UNDERSTAND GOOD WORKS / SUPERNATURAL WORKS

“The essence of supernatural love is unselfishness—doing something NOT

BECAUSE IT WILL HELP US SOMEHOW, but because we want to do it out of SHEER

LOVE for the person or for the GLORY OF GOD.

The works we must do we do it for our own interest, this works contains no love neither for God, nor for other person.

The works we do out of SHEER LOVE for the person or for the GLORY OF GOD contains love.

The only our work is good work/supernatural work which contains love for God or for others.

This the only work rewarded by God at the judgment of our works (1 Cor.3:12-15).

For easy understanding consider, our work as a vessel which contains the love which given through our works to God or to others. – God rewards the love that the work/vessel contains.

The work done for our own interest contains neither love for God nor love for others.

And as far as God’s rewards concern, these works are empty works/vessels, wood, hay and straw, goes up in smoke at the judgment.

Continue

 

[LatinRight]

continuation

**FOR WHAT REASONS, OUR WORKS DONE FOR OUR SALVATION IS WOOD, HAY AND STRAW?

ANSWER**

Because our salvation is God’s free gift, RECEIVED FREELY from God hands, in faith.

Even our ability to receive God’s gift of Formed faith is also God’s gift.

Salvation/Justification takes place by Grace alone, by Faith alone, the person is Justified apart from works.

As we see above the balance between faith and works about justification/salvation is 100 % faith and 0 % works.

The above balance makes the possibility for us Catholics that our works could be 100 % supernatural merit, all 100 % works could be done freely out of sheer love for the Glory of God and out of sheer love for others.

If we continue to believe our salvation is Faith + Works, (because we don’t know how much work is enough for our salvation) highly likely at the judgment of our works all our works goes up in smoke because all our works is wood, hay and straw.

If we want to do good works/supernatural works it is crucial to believe, Salvation/Justification takes place by **Grace alone, by Faith alone, the person is Justified apart from works.
**

The Church official interpretation of Romans 2:6-13 – 3:28.
SACRA PAGINA ROMANS By Brendan Byrne, S.J. Daniel J. Harrington, S.J., Editor

Brendan Byrne, S.J., is professor of New Testament at Jesuit Theological College, within the United Faculty of Theology, Parkville, Melbourne, Australia.
Pope John Paul II named Brendan Byrne, SJ. Member of the Pontifical Biblical Commission in 1990.

Quote: “Paul fully embraces the principle of justification according to one’s works.

Acceptance of the Christian gospel has indeed led him to fully convinced that IN FACT NO HUMAN BEING WILL FIND JUSTIFICATION ON THE BASIS OF WORKS and that, faced with total human unrighteousness, God has graciously effected in Christ an alternative mode of justification for those who believe (Rom.3:21-26).

For the purpose of the prophetic accusation and echoing what has already been stated in vv 6-7 and 10, he envisages at least the possibility of justification on the basis of performance – though VERY SOON (Rom.3:19-20, 23) he will DENY that this possibility, at least as CONVENTIONALLY understood, could be realized in fact. ” End quote. Emphasize mine.

Performance is the criterion of justification (Rom.2:6-13) VS. Faith is the criterion of justification Rom. (3:19-20, 23-24, 28). …

As we see above, the context is very important.
St. Paul is contrasting the old conventional way of work salvation which cannot save VS. the salvation by faith of the New Covenant, which is THE only way of salvation.

If we take Rom.2:6-13 OUT OF CONTEXT, we can be deceived and to believe, our salvation is Faith + Works, which is the way of the destruction of our good works/supernatural works.

JUSTIFICATION: BY FAITH ALONE? By James Akin

Quote: 7. On the subject of the kind of justification discussed in James 2:24, Trent quotes this verse only once and then applies it to progressive, not initial justification, so one does not have to do good works to get into a state of justification; good works are fruits of the state of justification, not causes for entering it.

The fact this passage does not refer to initial justification should be obvious since the justification of Abraham it refers to occurred years after Abraham was first justified by faith in Genesis 12, when By faith Abraham obeyed when he was called to go out to a place which he was to receive as an inheritance; and he went out, not knowing where he was to go (Heb. 11:8).

Thus James 2:24 refers to later, progressive justification, by which one grows in righteousness, not initial justification, when ones sins are forgiven. End quote.

God bless MT and every readers of the CAF.

LatinRight

 

[MT1926]

God bless MT and every readers of the CAF,

The truth is, many teachers of the Catholic Church use to teach Salvation/Justification by Faith + Works, but this teaching is** corrected by the Catholic Church** and I’m sure Tim Staples corrected his teachings too and he doesn’t teach Faith + Works Salvation/Justification any longer.

Sorry to tell you but nothing has changed. I am not sure where you are getting this idea that something has changed. The quote I gave you from Tim Staples is only about a year old.

You seem to respect Jimmy Akin so lets just work with him for now.

JUSTIFICATION BY FAITH ALONE? by James Akin

Quote: “In fact, in TRADITIONAL WORKS OF CATHOLIC THEOLOGY, one regularly encounters the statement that FORMED FAITH IS JUSTIFYING FAITH. If one has formed faith, one is justified. Period. End quote. Emphasis mine.

Sola fide formata = (formed) FAITH ALONE
THE COMPOSITE OF GOD’S GIFT OF FORMED FAITH:

Yes Jimmy Speaks of Sola fide formata, but that is just a fancy way of saying faith and works. You are having troubles leaving behind your Protestant roots. You were trained to pick and choose what sounds best and agrees with the point you are making. As Catholics we read everything and look at it as one continual thought before making a point.

The statement you are pulling out of the article to prove faith alone was already defined earlier by Jimmy.

Jimmy tells us this phrase comes from:

Galatians 5:6 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision is of any avail, but faith working through love.

He tells this verse refers to “faith working through Charity”. Jimmy goes on to tell us that this is known in Catholic theology, as** fides formata or “faith formed by charity.” **

Therefore, from what Jimmy tells us your definiution is wrong.

Sola fide formata = (formed) FAITH ALONE

Jimmy doesn’t de-emphasize the “formed” and emphasize the “FAITH ALONE”. That is your emphasis not his. That is what you want it to say, not what it actually says.

Jimmy is telling us that:
**
Sola fide formata = Faith Which Must Be Working By Charity Alone.**

He even reemphasizes that fact in the very sentence prior to the one you picked…

However, if the term “faith” is being used to refer to faith formed by charity then the Catholic does not have to condemn the idea of justification by faith alone.

a. BELIEF (Unconditional BELIEF in what God says.)

b. HOPE (Unconditional TRUST in God.)

c. CHARITY (Unconditional LOVE for God.)

Some other important parts of Jimmy’s article that he makes sure we don’t jump to any conclusions…

Thus Catholics often use the soteriological slogan that we are “saved by faith, hope, and charity.” This does not disagree with the Protestant soteriological slogan that we are “saved by faith alone” if the term “faith” is understood in the latter to be faith formed by charity or Galatians 5 faith.

Jimmy keeps reminding us that our faith is not alone it has to be formed by charity

The reason is that a faith which works by charity is a faith which produces acts of love. But a faith which produces acts of love is a faith which includes the virtue of charity, the virtue of charity is the thing that enables us to perform acts of supernatural love in the first place. So a Protestant who says saving faith is a faith which works by charity, as per Galatians 5:6Open in Logos Bible Software (if available), is saying the same thing as a Catholic when a Catholic says that we are saved by faith, hope, and charity.

What do you think Jimmy means by this statement?

The three theological virtues of Catholic theology are thus summed up in the (good) Protestant’s idea of the virtue of faith. And the Protestant slogan “salvation by faith alone” becomes the Catholic slogan “salvation by faith, hope, and charity (alone).”

This was recognized a few years ago in The Church’s Confession of Faith: A Catholic Catechism for Adults, put out by the German Conference of Bishops, which stated:

Catholic doctrine . . . says that only a faith alive in graciously bestowed love can justify. Having “mere” faith without love, merely considering something true, does not justify us. But if one understands faith in the full and comprehensive biblical sense, then faith includes conversion, hope, and lovegood Catholic sense. According to Catholic doctrine, faith encompasses both trusting in God on the basis of his mercifulness proved in Jesus Christ and confessing the salvific work of God through Jesus Christ in the Holy Spirit. Yet this faith is never alone. It includes other acts

I’m going to stop here. But I think Jimmy did all he could do to point out that nothing has changed and Catholics still believe we are saved by faith, hope, and charity.

God Bless

 

[MT1926]

Continuation

**JUSTIFICATION BY FAITH by Peter Kreeft
**
Dr. Peter Kreeft is one of the most popular and widely-read Catholic authors of today.
Dr. Peter Kreeft is on The Advisory Board of the Catholic Education resource Center.

Quote: The Protestant Reformation began when a Catholic monk rediscovered a Catholic doctrine in a Catholic book.

The monk, of course, was Luther; the doctrine was justification by faith;

“The just (justified, saved) shall live [have eternal life] by faith [in Christ]” (Rom 1: 17)

**Where then do good works come in? **

In Christian Liberty, Luther explains that after the great liberation about faith — that we are saved by faith in Christ’s work, not by our works — comes a great liberation about works:

They need not be done slavishly, to buy our way into heaven, to pile up merits or Brownie points with God, but can be done freely and spontaneously and naturally, out of gratitude to God — not to get to heaven but because heaven has already gotten to us.

Thus they can be done for the sake of our neighbor, not for our own sake, to purchase salvation.

And this is winsome. No one wants to be loved as someone else’s good deed for the day. End quote.

Latin,

This is getting out of hand. Not only are you sinning against yourself and me but you are at a point where you are sinning against our Lord.

I truly believed you where having some difficulties with this subject, but this is getting to a point of deception.

I am reading the article you are claiming proves your point but all you are quoting is the beginning of the article. Here Dr. Kreeft is telling us what Luther said, he is not telling us what the Church teachings are. You are deceptively taking Martin Luthers words and passing them off as Church teaching. If this is a misunderstanding you need to pray and study the entire article. If you are doing this on purpose this is deception and a sin.

Here is what Dr. Kreeft has to say later in the article.

When Luther taught that we are saved by faith alone, he meant by salvation only the initial step, justification, being put right with God. But when Trent said we are saved by good works as well as faith, they meant by salvation the whole process by which God brings us to our eternal destiny and that process includes repentance, faith, hope, and charity, the works of love.

The word faith was also used in two different senses. Luther used it in the broad sense of the person’s acceptance of God’s offer of salvation. It included repentance, faith, hope, and charity. This is the sense Saint Paul uses in Romans. But in 1 Corinthians 13, Paul uses it in a more specific sense, as just one of the three theological virtues, with hope and charity added to it. In this narrower sense faith alone is not sufficient for salvation, for hope and charity must be present also. That is the sense used by the old Baltimore Catechism too: faith is “an act of the intellect, prompted by the will, by which we believe what has been revealed on the grounds of the authority of God, who revealed it.”

This “faith”, though prompted by the will, is an act of the intellect. Though necessary for salvation, it is not sufficient.

Faith is the root, the necessary beginning. Hope is the stem, the energy that makes the plant grow. Love is the fruit, the flower, the visible product, the bottom line. The plant of our new life in Christ is one; the life of God comes into us by faith, through us by hope, and out of us by the works of love.

So I suggest for you too MT to take out from your Notebook the incorrect teachings of salvation and put into your Notebook the correct teaching of salvation which is:

**Salvation/Justification takes place by Grace alone, by Faith alone, the person is Justified apart from works.
**

I understand the teachings just fine. Salvation is not a one time event, it is a process. You are just refusing to understand the whole picture.

The plant of our new life in Christ is one; the life of God comes into us by faith, through us by hope, and out of us by the works of love.

God Bless

 

[MT1926]

THE CORRECT TEACHINGS OF THE CATOHOLIC CHURCH ON SALVATION / JUSTIFICATION

Let me just point out how this one statement is what I am talking about when I say you are causing deception.

You are claiming what you are writing is the “CORRECT TEACHINGS” of salvation…

HOW TO READ THE NEW TESTAMENT By Etienne Charpentier

I don’t have this book so I can’t verify the quotes. However, this is a book it is someone’s opinions not Church teachings.

JOINT DECLARATION ON THE DOCTRINE OF JUSTIFICATION by the Lutheran World Federation and the Catholic Church

This is a joint declaration with Lutheran’s.

IT HAS NO BINDING AUTHORITY.

Read the beginning of the document…

5.The present Joint Declaration has this intention: namely, to show that on the basis of their dialogue the subscribing Lutheran churches and the Roman Catholic Church[9] are now able to articulate a common understanding of our justification by God’s grace through faith in Christ. **It does not cover all that either church teaches about justification; **it does encompass a consensus on basic truths of the doctrine of justification and shows that the remaining differences in its explication are no longer the occasion for doctrinal condemnations.

God Bless

 

[MT1926]

Continuation

ANNEX TO THE OFFICIAL COMMON STATEMENT

C) Justification takes place "by grace alone“ (JD 15 and 16), by faith alone, the person is justified „apart from works“ (Rom 3:28, cf. JD 25). "Grace creates faith not only when faith begins in a person but as long as faith lasts“ (Thomas Aquinas, S. Th.II/II 4, 4 ad 3).The working of God’s grace does not exclude human action: God effects everything, the willing and the achievement, therefore, we are called to strive (cf. Phil 2:12 ff). "As soon as the Holy Spirit has initiated his work of regeneration and renewal in us through the Word and the holy sacraments, it is certain that we can and must cooperate by the power of the Holy Spirit…“ (The Formula of Concord, FC SD II,64f; BSLK 897,37ff).

D) Grace as fellowship of the justified with God in faith, hope and love is always received from the salvific and creative work of God (cf. JD 27). But it is nevertheless the responsibility of the justified not to waste this grace but to live in it. The exhortation to do good works is the exhortation to practice the faith (cf. BSLK 197,45). The good works of the justified „should be done in order to confirm their call, that is, lest they fall from their call by sinning again“ (Apol. XX,13, BSLK 316,18-24; with reference to 2 Pet. 1:10. Cf. also FC SD IV,33; BSLK 948,9-23). In this sense Lutherans and Catholics can understand together what is said about the "preservation of grace“ in JD 38 and 39. Certainly, "whatever in the justified precedes or follows the free gift of faith is neither the basis of justification nor merits it“ (JD 25).

1. The doctrine of justification is measure or touchstone for the Christian faith. No teaching may contradict this criterion. In this sense, the doctrine of justification is an "indispensable criterion which constantly serves to orient all the teaching and practice of our churches to Christ“ (JD l8). As such, it has its truth and specific meaning within the overall context of the Church’s fundamental Trinitarian confession of faith. We "share the goal of confessing Christ in all things, who is to be trusted above all things as the one Mediator (1 Tim 2:5-6) through whom God in the Holy Spirit gives himself and pours out his renewing gifts“ (JD 18).

As we see above the balance between faith and works about justification/salvation is 100 % faith and 0 % works.

ONLY IF YOU PICK AND CHOOSE WHAT YOU WANT TO READ.

As I stated above there is nothing official in these documents. The document itself states these aren’t a complete understanding.

1. The following elucidations underline the consensus reached in the Joint Declaration on the Doctrine of Justification (JD) regarding basic truths of justification; thus it becomes clear that the mutual condemnations of former times do not apply to the Catholic and Lutheran doctrines of justification as they are presented in the Joint Declaration.

Basically, pretty much means they are saying we are just getting started hashing this out.

Also everyone of you statements holds a disclaimer…

C) Also, says…The working of God’s grace does not exclude human action and goes on to say…it is certain that we can and must cooperate by the power of the Holy Spirit…

Also, notice C says "Grace creates faith not only when faith begins in a person** but as long as faith lasts**“

Wouldn’t this be a contradiction to knowing with 100% certainty that you are among the elect?

D) Also tells us…nevertheless the responsibility of the justified not to waste this grace but to live in it. it also tells us…The good works of the justified „should be done in order to confirm their call, that is, lest they fall from their call by sinning again“

D is speaking of initial justification not final salvation.

E states…In the final judgement, the justified will be judged also on their works. It says the person will be judges not his status in heaven will be judged.

All in all what is printed here does not hold any weight, it is just the beginning of the dialogue with Lutherans and makes it crystal clear that nothing written is binding on Christians of either Faith.

God Bless

 

[MT1926]

JUSTIFICATION IN CATHOLIC TEACHING by Jimmy Akin

Quote: “The essence of supernatural love is unselfishness—doing something NOT

BECAUSE IT WILL HELP US SOMEHOW, but because we want to do it out of SHEER

LOVE for the other person, whether that person is God or one of our fellow human beings out of the love of God.

This is THE ONLY KIND of love that ultimately pleases God and therefore the ONLY

KIND that ultimately gets us a reward IN heaven.” End quote. Emphasize mine.

I can’t see the point you are trying to make? How does the fact that WE are doing something out of sheer love for God and neighbor prove that we aren’t the ones doing it? Yes God’s grace gives us the ability to do it, but we are still the one’s doing the work. We aren’t automatons.

I’m curious if you realize you are taking bits and pieces from an article to try to prove your point when the article actually goes against other points you try to make.

Did you read the beginning of this article?

Then it turns to the possibility of failing to persevere in God’s grace, of losing one’s justification, and of subsequently regaining it (ch.s 12-15).

The article tells us we can fall from grace which you say is not possible.

God Bless

 

[MT1926]

The Church official interpretation of Romans 2:6-13 – 3:28.
SACRA PAGINA ROMANS By Brendan Byrne, S.J. Daniel J. Harrington, S.J., Editor

Brendan Byrne, S.J., is professor of New Testament at Jesuit Theological College, within the United Faculty of Theology, Parkville, Melbourne, Australia.
Pope John Paul II named Brendan Byrne, SJ. Member of the Pontifical Biblical Commission in 1990.

Quote: “Paul fully embraces the principle of justification according to one’s works.

Acceptance of the Christian gospel has indeed led him to fully convinced that [COLR=“Blue”]IN FACT NO HUMAN BEING WILL FIND JUSTIFICATION ON THE BASIS OF WORKS

and that, faced with total human unrighteousness, God has graciously effected in Christ an alternative mode of justification for those who believe (Rom.3:21-26).

For the purpose of the prophetic accusation and echoing what has already been stated in vv 6-7 and 10, he envisages at least the possibility of justification on the basis of performance – though VERY SOON (Rom.3:19-20, 23) he will DENY that this possibility, at least as CONVENTIONALLY understood, could be realized in fact. ” End quote. Emphasize mine.

Performance is the criterion of justification (Rom.2:6-13) VS. Faith is the criterion of justification Rom. (3:19-20, 23-24, 28). …

As we see above, the context is very important.
St. Paul is contrasting the old conventional way of work salvation which cannot save VS. the salvation by faith of the New Covenant, which is THE only way of salvation.

If we take Rom.2:6-13 OUT OF CONTEXT, we can be deceived and to believe, our salvation is Faith + Works, which is the way of the destruction of our good works/supernatural works.

We also need to realize St. Paul is speaking of initial justification not final salvation. So I have no objections.

Father Mitch Pacwa once said in a debate you are defining the term differently than the Catholic Church and trying to say I am wrong when I can’t defend your definition.

Yes you are completely correct on this, because they are talking about initial justification and not the process of salvation. Works do play a part in the process of salvation.

Here’s another article from Tim Staples…

catholic.com/magazine/online-edition/justification-process-or-one-time-deal

JUSTIFICATION: BY FAITH ALONE? By James Akin

Quote: 7. On the subject of the kind of justification discussed in James 2:24, Trent quotes this verse only once and then applies it to progressive, not initial justification, so one does not have to do good works to get into a state of justification; good works are fruits of the state of justification, not causes for entering it.

The fact this passage does not refer to initial justification should be obvious since the justification of Abraham it refers to occurred years after Abraham was first justified by faith in Genesis 12, when By faith Abraham obeyed when he was called to go out to a place which he was to receive as an inheritance; and he went out, not knowing where he was to go (Heb. 11:8).

Thus James 2:24 refers to later, progressive justification, by which one grows in righteousness, not initial justification, when ones sins are forgiven. End quote.

God bless MT and every readers of the CAF.

LatinRight

Agreed there is absolutely nothing we can do to “earn” initial justification. I never said there was, the Catholic Church has never said there was. The problem we are having is you don’t seem to believe a failure to do good works through God’s free gift of Grace can cause us to lose our salvation. This is the progressive justification, not final status after getting to heaven, Jimmy is speaking of.

Interesting at the end of the article Jimmy States…

Without going into the subject of what kind of justification is being discussed here (which is misunderstood by most Evangelical commentators on Catholicism, see below), the phrase “faith alone” is itself rejected. Even though Protestants can give the phrase orthodox theological content, the phrase itself is unbiblical. If we wish to conform our theological language to the language of the Bible, we need to conform our usage of the phrase “faith alone” to the use of that phrase in the Bible.

Thus, if we are to conform our language to the language of the Bible, we need to reject usage of the formula “faith alone” while at the same time preaching that man is justified “by faith and not by works of the Law” (which Catholics can and should and must and do preach, as Protestants would know if they read Catholic literature). James 2:24 requires rejection of the first formula while Romans 3:28 requires the use of the second.

I have no problem continuing this discussion. However, I think you need the help of a good spiritual director. They will help you focus in on the complete teachings of the Catholic Church and keep you from spending to much time on one part of a particular teaching.

God Bless

 

[LatinRight]

We also need to realize St. Paul is speaking of initial justification not final salvation. So I have no objections.

Yes you are completely correct on this, because they are talking about initial justification and not the process of salvation. Works do play a part in the process of salvation.

Agreed there is absolutely nothing we can do to “earn” initial justification. I never said there was, the Catholic Church has never said there was. The problem we are having is you don’t seem to believe a failure to do good works through God’s free gift of Grace can cause us to lose our salvation. This is the progressive justification, not final status after getting to heaven, Jimmy is speaking of.

Interesting at the end of the article Jimmy States…

I have no problem continuing this discussion. However, I think you need the help of a good spiritual director. They will help you focus in on the complete teachings of the Catholic Church and keep you from spending to much time on one part of a particular teaching.

God Bless

God bless MT and every readers of the CAF.

Thank you for your advise MT, I have spoken with my Spiritual Director.

Salvation is a very long time process, even of those who died about 2,000 years ago their salvation not yet completed/final salvation.

Our salvation will be completed/final salvation at the fulfillment of John 14:1-3; 1 Cor.15:51-54; 1 Thess.4:16-18.

**THE SEQUENCE OF EVENTS OF OUR SALVATION (GOD’S CHILDREN/ELECT)
**
Two expression: Initial Justification and Further Justification or process of Justification.

Helpful to use the other expressions: Initial Salvation and Further Salvation or Process of Salvation.

An important theological fact that everyone should know and understand:
Our Initial Justification/Initial Salvation in reality is our irrevocable and unconditional authorization by God for us to enter heaven. Period.

WE HAVE IN BAPTISM INITIAL JUSTIFICATION / INITIAL SALVATION

1. Our Initial Justification/Initial Salvation takes place "by grace alone“ (JD 15 and 16), by faith alone, we have been initially justified, initially saved, which is in reality an irrevocable and unconditional authorization by God for us to enter heaven apart from works. (Rom 3:28, cf. JD 25).
2. We have God’s gift of EVERLASTING LIFE.
3. We have God’s special grace The Gift of Final Perseverance which is an Eternal Assurance/Protection of our Salvation/Everlasting life.

OUR FURTHER / PROCESS JUSTIFICATION AND FURTHER / PROCESS OF SALVATION

This time period our justification and Salvation is progressive event from our baptism until we die.

At this time period by our co-operation with the grace of God we progressively work on our further justification and sanctification and we do all kinds of Christian works.

KEY TO UNDERSTAND

At this time period our justification and our sanctification is progressive, but our IRREVOCABLE and UNCONDITIONAL authorization BY God for us to enter heaven is NOT progressive because we have 100 % of it at our baptism at our initial justification and our initial salvation, so this cannot be progressive.

The work we do in this time period we cannot contribute from it even an iota to our salvation, because our salvation is God’s free gift, God has given to us by Grace Alone, Faith Alone, apart from works!!!

If someone don’t understand this simple theological fact, don’t understand the heart of salvation.

Heaven is God’s Free Gift for us, for our works God gives us rewards if our works up to the standard of good works.

Our works will be judged by God: If good works will be rewarded, if wood hay and straw will be goes up in smoke and no reward, but remember, at our initial justification and our initial salvation God has granted us our IRREVOCABLE and UNCONDITIONAL authorization to enter heaven, Eternally Assured/Protected by God’s special grace The Gift of Final Perseverance and NOTHING CAN REVERSE THAT.

IN THE FINAL ANALYSE

God’s chosen/elect’s IRREVOCABLE and UNCONDITIONAL authorization to enter heaven is God’s free gift, received "by grace alone“ (JD 15 and 16), by faith alone, apart from works (Rom 3:28, cf. JD 25).

The time period from our baptism until we die, by our cooperation with the grace of God we can take under our belts as much supernatural works as we can.

The standard to do supernatural works is VERY HIGH, probably many elect fail to do supernatural works.

If an elect working in all his life to get his salvation or to keep his salvation (believe authorization to enter heaven is Faith + Works, instead God’s Free Gift, received by grace alone, faith alone, apart from works) at the judgment of his works rejected by God and goes up in smoke, yet he still enters to heaven. – 1 Cor.3:12-15

This is a great loss because our position and glory in heaven is determined by God according to the outcome of the judgment of our works.

God bless MT and every readers of the CAF.

LatinRight

 

[LatinRight]

We also need to realize St. Paul is speaking of initial justification not final salvation. So I have no objections.

Father Mitch Pacwa once said in a debate you are defining the term differently than the Catholic Church and trying to say I am wrong when I can’t defend your definition.

Yes you are completely correct on this, because they are talking about initial justification and not the process of salvation. Works do play a part in the process of salvation.

Here’s another article from Tim Staples…

catholic.com/magazine/online-edition/justification-process-or-one-time-deal

Agreed there is absolutely nothing we can do to “earn” initial justification. I never said there was, the Catholic Church has never said there was. The problem we are having is you don’t seem to believe a failure to do good works through God’s free gift of Grace can cause us to lose our salvation. This is the progressive justification, not final status after getting to heaven, Jimmy is speaking of.

Interesting at the end of the article Jimmy States…

I have no problem continuing this discussion. However, I think you need the help of a good spiritual director. They will help you focus in on the complete teachings of the Catholic Church and keep you from spending to much time on one part of a particular teaching.

God Bless

God bless MT and every readers of the CAF.

Thank you for your advise MT, I have spoken with my Spiritual Director.

Salvation is a very long time process, even of those who died about 2,000 years ago their salvation not yet completed/final salvation.

Our salvation will be completed/final salvation at the fulfillment of John 14:1-3; 1 Cor.15:51-54; 1 Thess.4:16-18.

**THE SEQUENCE OF EVENTS OF OUR SALVATION (GOD’S CHILDREN/ELECT)
**
Two expression: Initial Justification and Further Justification or process of Justification.

Helpful to use the other expressions: Initial Salvation and Further Salvation or Process of Salvation.

An important theological fact that everyone should know and understand:
Our Initial Justification/Initial Salvation in reality is our irrevocable and unconditional authorization by God for us to enter heaven. Period.

WE HAVE IN BAPTISM INITIAL JUSTIFICATION / INITIAL SALVATION

1. Our Initial Justification/Initial Salvation takes place "by grace alone“ (JD 15 and 16), by faith alone, we have been initially justified, initially saved, which is in reality an irrevocable and unconditional authorization by God for us to enter heaven apart from works. (Rom 3:28, cf. JD 25).
2. We have God’s gift of EVERLASTING LIFE.
3. We have God’s special grace The Gift of Final Perseverance which is an Eternal Assurance/Protection of our Salvation/Everlasting life.

OUR FURTHER / PROCESS JUSTIFICATION AND FURTHER / PROCESS OF SALVATION

This time period our justification and Salvation is progressive event from our baptism until we die.

At this time period by our co-operation with the grace of God we progressively work on our further justification and sanctification and we do all kinds of Christian works.

Continue

 

[LatinRight]

Continuation

KEY TO UNDERSTAND

At this time period our justification and our sanctification is progressive, but our IRREVOCABLE and UNCONDITIONAL authorization BY God for us to enter heaven is NOT progressive because we have 100 % of it at our baptism at our initial justification and our initial salvation, so this cannot be progressive.

The work we do in this time period we cannot contribute from it even an iota to our salvation, because our salvation is God’s free gift, God has given to us by Grace Alone, Faith Alone, apart from works!!!

If someone don’t understand this simple theological fact, don’t understand the heart of salvation.

Heaven is God’s Free Gift for us, for our works God gives us rewards if our works up to the standard of good works.

Our works will be judged by God: If good works will be rewarded, if wood hay and straw will be goes up in smoke and no reward, but remember, at our initial justification and our initial salvation God has granted us our IRREVOCABLE and UNCONDITIONAL authorization to enter heaven, Eternally Assured/Protected by God’s special grace The Gift of Final Perseverance and NOTHING CAN CHANGE THAT.

IN THE FINAL ANALYSE

God’s chosen/elect’s IRREVOCABLE and UNCONDITIONAL authorization to enter heaven is God’s free gift, received "by grace alone“ (JD 15 and 16), by faith alone, apart from works (Rom 3:28, cf. JD 25).

The time period from our baptism until we die, by our cooperation with the grace of God we can take under our belts as much supernatural works as we can.

The standard to do good works/supernatural works is VERY HIGH, probably many elect fail to do good works/supernatural works.

If an elect working in all his life to get his salvation or to keep his salvation (believe salvation/authorization to enter heaven is Faith + Works, instead God’s Free Gift, received by grace alone, faith alone, apart from works) at the judgment of his works rejected by God and goes up in smoke, yet he still enters to heaven. – 1 Cor.3:12-15

This is a great loss because our position and glory in heaven is determined by God according to the outcome of the judgment of our works.

God bless MT and every readers of the CAF.

LatinRight

 

[steve_b]

An important theological fact that everyone should know and understand:
Our Initial Justification/Initial Salvation in reality is our irrevocable and unconditional authorization by God for us to enter heaven. Period.

If initial justification happens, THEN we die immediately after that, then that statement is true.
L:

WE HAVE IN BAPTISM INITIAL JUSTIFICATION / INITIAL SALVATION

1. Our Initial Justification/Initial Salvation takes place "by grace -]alone/-]“ (JD 15 and 16), by faith -]alone/-], we have been initially justified, initially saved, -]which is in reality an irrevocable and unconditional authorization by God for us to enter heaven apart from works. (Rom 3:28, cf. JD 25). /-]

If one is baptized THEN dies immediately after baptism, then they go to heaven. If they don’t die immediately, there is no irrevocable, unconditional guarantee in the future, one won’t commit mortal sin, and die in that sin, and go to hell.
L:

1. We have God’s gift of EVERLASTING LIFE.

Providing we die in the state of sanctifying grace.
L:

1. We have God’s special grace The Gift of Final Perseverance which is an Eternal Assurance/Protection of our Salvation/Everlasting life.

Unless one has been given special knowledge from God, no one knows their future. No one knows for sure, they will persevere till the end.
L:

OUR FURTHER / PROCESS JUSTIFICATION AND FURTHER / PROCESS OF SALVATION

This time period our justification and Salvation is progressive event from our baptism until we die.

At this time period by our co-operation with the grace of God we progressively work on our further justification and sanctification and we do all kinds of Christian works.

Continue

true

 

[steve_b]

Continuation

KEY TO UNDERSTAND

At this time period our justification and our sanctification is progressive, but our IRREVOCABLE and UNCONDITIONAL authorization BY God for us to enter heaven is NOT progressive because we have 100 % of it at our baptism at our initial justification and our initial salvation, **so this cannot be progressive.

**

Baptism leaves an indelible mark. But sanctifying grace, received at baptism is destroyed by mortal sin. Unless sanctifying grace is restored by the removal of mortal sin in sacramental confession, one is NOT in a state of grace, no longer justified, nor is heaven in their future.
L:

The work we do in this time period we cannot contribute from it even an iota to our salvation, because our salvation is God’s free gift, God has given to us by Grace Alone, Faith Alone, apart from works!!!

don’t stop at v 9
Eph 2: 8-10
8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and this is not your own doing, it is the gift of God— 9 not because of works, lest any man should boast. 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.

If one doesn’t do good works, that God prepared in advance for us to do, guess what happens?
L:

Heaven is God’s Free Gift for us, for our works God gives us rewards if our works up to the standard of good works.

If one doesn’t continue in [good works] charity, they won’t be going to heaven.

**837 **“Fully incorporated into the society of the Church are those who, possessing the Spirit of Christ, accept all the means of salvation given to the Church together with her entire organization, and who - by the bonds constituted by the profession of faith, the sacraments, ecclesiastical government, and communion - are joined in the visible structure of the Church of Christ, who rules her through the Supreme Pontiff and the bishops. Even though incorporated into the Church, one who does not however persevere in charity is not saved. He remains indeed in the bosom of the Church, but ‘in body’ not ‘in heart.’”
L:

Our works will be judged by God: If good works will be rewarded, if wood hay and straw will be goes up in smoke and no reward, but remember, at our initial justification and our initial salvation -]God has granted us our IRREVOCABLE and UNCONDITIONAL authorization to enter heaven, Eternally Assured/Protected by God’s special grace The Gift of Final Perseverance and NOTHING CAN CHANGE THAT. /-]

Unless God gives a person special knowledge, what you describe is not known by anyone. Final perseverance is not a known guarantee by anyone.
L:

IN THE FINAL ANALYSE

God’s chosen/elect’s IRREVOCABLE and UNCONDITIONAL authorization to enter heaven is God’s free gift, received "by grace alone“ (JD 15 and 16), by faith alone, apart from works (Rom 3:28, cf. JD 25).

The time period from our baptism until we die, by our cooperation with the grace of God we can take under our belts as much supernatural works as we can.

The standard to do good works/supernatural works is VERY HIGH, probably many elect fail to do good works/supernatural works.

If an elect working in all his life to get his salvation or to keep his salvation (believe salvation/authorization to enter heaven is Faith + Works, instead God’s Free Gift, received by grace alone, faith alone, apart from works) at the judgment of his works rejected by God and goes up in smoke, yet he still enters to heaven. – 1 Cor.3:12-15

This is a great loss because our position and glory in heaven is determined by God according to the outcome of the judgment of our works.

God bless MT and every readers of the CAF.

LatinRight

RE: FINAL PERSEVERANCE

catholic.com/encyclopedia/final-perseverance

 

[LatinRight]

If initial justification happens, THEN we die immediately after that, then that statement is true.

If one is baptized THEN dies immediately after baptism, then they go to heaven. If they don’t die immediately, there is no irrevocable, unconditional guarantee in the future, one won’t commit mortal sin, and die in that sin, and go to hell.

Providing we die in the state of sanctifying grace.

Unless one has been given special knowledge from God, no one knows their future. No one knows for sure, they will persevere till the end.

true

God bless Steve b and every readers of the CAF.

**THE SEQUENCE OF EVENTS OF OUR SALVATION (GOD’S CHILDREN/ELECT)
**

**First: **
You should read my above statement more carefully, you didn’t noticed the word ELECT.

**Second: **
You should know, in Catholic Theology only the reprobates end up in hell who are already predestined to hell before the foundation of the world for their vehement rejection of God and His grace.

For the above reason, their names taken out from the Book of Life before the foundation of the world.

**Third: **
It is disrespectful to cross out others writings, I would never do that with your writings.

**The Catholic Church affirms predestination as a *DE FIDE *Dogma (the highest level of binding theological certainty).

CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA

THE CATHOLIC DOGMA. – The predestination of the elect**

Consequently, the whole future membership of heaven, down to its minutest details, has

been IRREVOCABLY FIXED FROM ALL ETERNITY. Nor could it be otherwise. For if it

were possible that a predestined individual should after all be CAST INTO HELL or that

one not predestined should in the end REACH HEAVEN, then God would have been

MISTAKEN in his foreknowledge of future events; He would NO LONGER be omniscient.

God’s unerring foreknowledge and foreordaining is designated in the Bible by the beautiful

figure of the “Book of Life” (liber vitæ, to biblion tes zoes). This book of life is a list which

contains the names of ALL THE ELECT and admits NEITHER ADDITIONS NO ERASURES.

(2) The second quality of predestination, the DEFINITENESS of the number of the elect,

follows NATURALLY from the first. For if the eternal counsel of God regarding the

predestined is UNCHANGEABLE, then the number of the predestined must likewise be

UNCHANGEABLE and DEFINITE, subject NEITHER to ADDITIONS nor to

CANCELLATIONS. Anything indefinite in the number would eo ipso imply a lack of

certitude in God’s knowledge and would DESTROY His omniscience. End quote. Emphasis added.

BOOK OF LIFE

God has completed the Book of Life before the foundation of the world by taking out the names of the reprobates from the Book of Life for their vehement rejection of God and His grace and as the results they all end up in hell.

From the completion, the Book of life admits NEITHER ADDITIONS no ERASURES.

Some people can be confused about the Book of Life, because God has completed the Book of Life in His “chronological order” before the foundation of the world, but in the Bible concerning the events in the Book of Life, for our understanding, written in our chronological order, like the cancellation from the Book of Life done at our present time, this is not the case.

This fact can cause confusion, because someone may wrongly conclude; God’s child/elect can lose salvation, which is a theological impossibility.

Continue

 

[LatinRight]

Continuation

HOW TO READ THE NEW TESTAMENT By Etienne Charpentier

Nihil obstate: Father Anton Cowan

Imprimatur: Monsignor John Crowley, VG Westminster, 28 May 1985

Quote: “There is ONE CENTRAL QUESTION here: how can we become RIGHTEOUS and be SAVED?

We NOT justified by what we do (works, observing law) but by FAITH IN CHRIST.

Salvation is NOT a matter of achieving but RECEIVING IT FREELY from God hands, in faith.” End quote.

JOINT DECLARATION ON THE DOCTRINE OF JUSTIFICATION by the Lutheran World Federation and the Catholic Church

3/17 Justification is SOLELY due to the forgiving and renewing mercy that God imparts as a gift and we RECEIVE IN FAITH, and NEVER CAN MERIT IT ANY WAY.

4/25 We confess together that sinners are justified by faith in the saving action of God in Christ. WHATEVER in the JUSTIFIED PRECEDES or FOLLOWS the free gift of faith is NEITHER THE BASIS of justification NOR MERITS it.

4/27.The Catholic understanding also sees faith as fundamental in justification. For without faith, no justification can take place. Thus justifying grace never becomes a human possession. While Catholic teaching emphasizes the renewal of life by justifying grace, this RENEVAL in FAITH, HOPE, LOVE is always dependent on God’s unfathomable grace and contributes NOTHING to JUSTIFICATION.

4/37 We confess together that good works - a Christian life lived in faith, hope and love - FOLLOW JUSTIFICATION and ARE ITS FRUITS.

ANNEX TO THE OFFICIAL COMMON STATEMENT

C) Justification takes place "by grace alone“ (JD 15 and 16), by faith alone, the person is justified „apart from works“ (Rom 3:28, cf. JD 25). "Grace creates faith not only when faith begins in a person but as long as faith lasts“ (Thomas Aquinas, S. Th.II/II 4, 4 ad 3).The working of God’s grace does not exclude human action: God effects everything, the willing and the achievement, therefore, we are called to strive (cf. Phil 2:12 ff). "As soon as the Holy Spirit has initiated his work of regeneration and renewal in us through the Word and the holy sacraments, it is certain that we can and must cooperate by the power of the Holy Spirit…“ (The Formula of Concord, FC SD II,64f; BSLK 897,37ff).

D) Grace as fellowship of the justified with God in faith, hope and love is always received from the salvific and creative work of God (cf. JD 27). But it is nevertheless the responsibility of the justified not to waste this grace but to live in it. The exhortation to do good works is the exhortation to practice the faith (cf. BSLK 197,45). The good works of the justified „should be done in order to confirm their call, that is, lest they fall from their call by sinning again“ (Apol. XX,13, BSLK 316,18-24; with reference to 2 Pet. 1:10. Cf. also FC SD IV,33; BSLK 948,9-23). In this sense Lutherans and Catholics can understand together what is said about the "preservation of grace“ in JD 38 and 39. Certainly, "whatever in the justified precedes or follows the free gift of faith is neither the basis of justification nor merits it“ (JD 25).

1. The doctrine of justification is measure or touchstone for the Christian faith. No teaching may contradict this criterion. In this sense, the doctrine of justification is an "indispensable criterion which constantly serves to orient all the teaching and practice of our churches to Christ“ (JD l8). As such, it has its truth and specific meaning within the overall context of the Church’s fundamental Trinitarian confession of faith. We "share the goal of confessing Christ in all things, who is to be trusted above all things as the one Mediator (1 Tim 2:5-6) through whom God in the Holy Spirit gives himself and pours out his renewing gifts“ (JD 18).

God bless Steve b and every readers of the CAF.

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