Trent Horn - Does it matter which Christian denomination you belong to?

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Duane1966 said:
Once again Ben I ask you, can a person be saved only having faith? If I trust and believe in Jesus, that is without a doubt faith.

Will I be saved if I intentionally never do a work of charity? I still believe Jesus will save me, and that He is God. That is the definition of faith alone according to the dictionary.

In your opinion, can the sayer change the definition of something to fit his/her ideology?
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Well there is definition and there is context. Do you also object to contexts ? I mean why not just say Luther meant you could also not only not do charity, but also live unholy, even even break all the commandments.

I actually would like to see where it was first written, this faith “alone” by Luther, besides his German bible.

Blessings
 
seaton2005 said:
On now! Come on! I’m a cradle practicing Catholic of over 50 years now and don’t for one reason think my Catholic faith is superior to other faith traditions. It does not matter what denomination you belong to. The only thing that maters is your faith in Christ regardless if that is Baptist, Methodist, Lutheran etc…
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The Catholic Church vehemently disagrees with you. Why do you not believe this Church teaching?
 
zz912 said:
The Catholic Church vehemently disagrees with you. Why do you not believe this Church teaching?
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I have to agree with Seaton. The modern Church does not preach a triumphalist message. You will not find Pope Francis trying to convince Protestants that their beliefs are unbiblical, or Cardinals politely preaching conversion of non-Catholics at interfaith/multifaith gatherings.
 
benhur said:
Well there is definition and there is context. Do you also object to contexts ? I mean why not just say Luther meant you could also not only not do charity, but also live unholy, even even break all the commandments.

I actually would like to see where it was first written, this faith “alone” by Luther, besides his German bible.

Blessings
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Yes, me too.
 
outremer said:
I have to agree with Seaton. The modern Church does not preach a triumphalist message. You will not find Pope Francis trying to convince Protestants that their beliefs are unbiblical, or Cardinals politely preaching conversion of non-Catholics at interfaith/multifaith gatherings.
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There is nothing Triumphalist about proclaiming the truth:

*Paragraph 3. The Church Is One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic *

[811](javascript:openWindow(‘cr/811.htm’)😉* "This is the sole Church of Christ, which in the Creed we profess to be one, holy, catholic and apostolic."256 These four characteristics, inseparably linked with each other,257 indicate essential features of the Church and her mission. The Church does not possess them of herself; it is Christ who, through the Holy Spirit, makes his Church one, holy, catholic, and apostolic, and it is he who calls her to realize each of these qualities. [812](javascript:openWindow(‘cr/812.htm’)😉 Only faith can recognize that the Church possesses these properties from her divine source. But their historical manifestations are signs that also speak clearly to human reason. As the First Vatican Council noted, the "Church herself, with her marvelous propagation, eminent holiness, and inexhaustible fruitfulness in everything good, her catholic unity and invincible stability, is a great and perpetual motive of credibility and an irrefutable witness of her divine mission."258*
 
outremer said:
I have to agree with Seaton. The modern Church does not preach a triumphalist message. You will not find Pope Francis trying to convince Protestants that their beliefs are unbiblical, or Cardinals politely preaching conversion of non-Catholics at interfaith/multifaith gatherings.
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He claimed that the Catholic faith and Catholic Church are not superior to other faiths and churches, which is contrary to Church teaching.

843 The Catholic Church recognizes in other religions that search, among shadows and images, for the God who is unknown yet near since he gives life and breath and all things and wants all men to be saved. Thus, the Church considers all goodness and truth found in these religions as "a preparation for the Gospel and given by him who enlightens all men that they may at length have life."332

844 In their religious behavior, however, men also display the limits and errors that disfigure the image of God in them:

Very often, deceived by the Evil One, men have become vain in their reasonings, and have exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and served the creature rather than the Creator. Or else, living and dying in this world without God, they are exposed to ultimate despair.333

845 To reunite all his children, scattered and led astray by sin, **the Father willed to call the whole of humanity together into his Son’s Church. The Church is the place where humanity must rediscover its unity and salvation. **The Church is “the world reconciled.” She is that bark which “in the full sail of the Lord’s cross, by the breath of the Holy Spirit, navigates safely in this world.” According to another image dear to the Church Fathers, she is prefigured by Noah’s ark, which alone saves from the flood.334
 
benhur said:
Well there is definition and there is context. Do you also object to contexts ? I mean why not just say Luther meant you could also not only not do charity, but also live unholy, even even break all the commandments.

I actually would like to see where it was first written, this faith “alone” by Luther, besides his German bible.

Blessings
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That dictionary definition is not what Luther taught , he taught that faith alone saves , then in sanctification we are commanded to obey the moral law after justification, he was not antinomian.
 
Duane1966 said:
:eek: Of course it matters. Just the fact that you have been practicing 50 years and staying a Catholic, must mean that you feel that Catholicism has something to offer that you could not get anywhere else. So, quite obviously it must matter to you.
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The question was: Does it matter … No it does not.
 
seaton2005 said:
I don’t believe you are correct here. Sorry.
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…

*Paragraph 3. The Church Is One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic

811 "This is the sole Church of Christ, which in the Creed we profess to be one, holy, catholic and apostolic."256 These four characteristics, inseparably linked with each other,257 indicate essential features of the Church and her mission. The Church does not possess them of herself; it is Christ who, through the Holy Spirit, makes his Church one, holy, catholic, and apostolic, and it is he who calls her to realize each of these qualities. 812 Only faith can recognize that the Church possesses these properties from her divine source. But their historical manifestations are signs that also speak clearly to human reason. As the First Vatican Council noted, the "Church herself, with her marvelous propagation, eminent holiness, and inexhaustible fruitfulness in everything good, her catholic unity and invincible stability, is a great and perpetual motive of credibility and an irrefutable witness of her divine mission."258*
 
Starwarsfan2 said:
That dictionary definition is not what Luther taught , he taught that faith alone saves , then in sanctification we are commanded to obey the moral law after justification, he was not antinomian.
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Agree.nothing like context,which you just gave, justification is not sanctification.
 
seaton2005 said:
I don’t believe you are correct here. Sorry.
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It’s not a matter of whether you believe it or not, or what your opinion on the matter is. The Church teaches that the Catholic faith is the fullness of the faith, and all other ecclesial communities fall short of having the fullness of the faith. There is ONE Church, and it is His Body. The Catholic Church teaches that the Catholic faith and the Church are superior to all other religions. This is Church teaching.

You can have an opinion about the Church teaching, but you are not allowed to have an opinion about IF the Church teaches something. She teaches this, period. You can disagree with the teaching, but you aren’t allowed to deny that she teaches it.
 
Duane1966 said:
Is justification a one time event or an ongoing process?
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In P terms it is an event where for the first time we are reconciled to God,become His child become a new creation, the new man ,born again,born of the spirit ,regenerated. You do not need to be born again and again and again. I am aware of only one scripture that may allude to justification being applied as kind of proof there afterwards.

Blessings
 
It is the “commonest” of common sense that actions speak louder than words.

For example, a cheating husband can write “I love my wife” 1,000 times a day. But if he goes out and continues his adulterous behavior, then those words that he repeatedly wrote are utterly void of any genuine meaning.

In practice, the Catholic Church does not seek the conversion of non-Catholics. Yes, you can point to oceans of ink saying “the Catholic Church believes X,Y, and Z,” but if the Church doesn’t put such written words into practice, they are just empty texts.
estesbob said:
…

*Paragraph 3. The Church Is One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic

811 "This is the sole Church of Christ, which in the Creed we profess to be one, holy, catholic and apostolic."256 These four characteristics, inseparably linked with each other,257 indicate essential features of the Church and her mission. The Church does not possess them of herself; it is Christ who, through the Holy Spirit, makes his Church one, holy, catholic, and apostolic, and it is he who calls her to realize each of these qualities. 812 Only faith can recognize that the Church possesses these properties from her divine source. But their historical manifestations are signs that also speak clearly to human reason. As the First Vatican Council noted, the "Church herself, with her marvelous propagation, eminent holiness, and inexhaustible fruitfulness in everything good, her catholic unity and invincible stability, is a great and perpetual motive of credibility and an irrefutable witness of her divine mission."258*
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zz912 said:
It’s not a matter of whether you believe it or not, or what your opinion on the matter is. The Church teaches that the Catholic faith is the fullness of the faith, and all other ecclesial communities fall short of having the fullness of the faith. There is ONE Church, and it is His Body. The Catholic Church teaches that the Catholic faith and the Church are superior to all other religions. This is Church teaching.

You can have an opinion about the Church teaching, but you are not allowed to have an opinion about IF the Church teaches something. She teaches this, period. You can disagree with the teaching, but you aren’t allowed to deny that she teaches it.
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You are allowed to profess your interpretation, which of course is not correct. Examine what you are saying - one is better or more real than the other. That is wrong. In the end, each denomination is striving for the same thing, each, slightly nuanced.
 
zz912 said:
He claimed that the Catholic faith and Catholic Church are not superior to other faiths and churches, which is contrary to Church teaching.

843 The Catholic Church recognizes in other religions that search, among shadows and images, for the God who is unknown yet near since he gives life and breath and all things and wants all men to be saved. Thus, the Church considers all goodness and truth found in these religions as "a preparation for the Gospel and given by him who enlightens all men that they may at length have life."332

844 In their religious behavior, however, men also display the limits and errors that disfigure the image of God in them:

Very often, deceived by the Evil One, men have become vain in their reasonings, and have exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and served the creature rather than the Creator. Or else, living and dying in this world without God, they are exposed to ultimate despair.333

845 To reunite all his children, scattered and led astray by sin, **the Father willed to call the whole of humanity together into his Son’s Church. The Church is the place where humanity must rediscover its unity and salvation. **The Church is “the world reconciled.” She is that bark which “in the full sail of the Lord’s cross, by the breath of the Holy Spirit, navigates safely in this world.” According to another image dear to the Church Fathers, she is prefigured by Noah’s ark, which alone saves from the flood.334
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It’s not a matter of being superior but being truthful, in humility. God Bless, Memaw
 
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