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zz912
Guest
There is ONE faith. Our God is not a God of confusion.
Is there even ONE doctrine that all Protestant groups agree on?
Trent Horn - Does it matter which Christian denomination you belong to?
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Is there even ONE doctrine that all Protestant groups agree on?
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benhur
Guest
Hi zz
Amen. If the CC had not insisted that Peter was above/over the rest of the apostles instead of first amongst equals maybe we would not have the Orthodox ? And if the CC had not insisted on the papacy and councils as infallible and equal to scripture, even on just indulgences, might we not have protestantism ?
Is there not one reform the CC could have done that was suggested by "Lutherans’’ 500 years ago ?
Anyways such rhetorical hyperbole, not ONE doctrine.
Blessings
D
Duane1966
Guest
Ben here is a problem you have. If the council that defined the canon of the NT is not infallible, how can I have any assurance that what I read as scripture is actually scripture? If I go with the proverbial burning in the bosom, I am left with the problem of the Book of Mormon, whose followers all claim causes burning in their bosom.
As inerrant as scripture is, unless it is correctly interpreted (infallibly), it is useless. The minute you give anyone the authority to interpret it infallibly (for me the magisterium, for you yourself), you have set that authority equal to scripture.
There is really only one reason to not grant infallibility to an entity such as the magisterium. And that is to reserve to yourself the right to disagree with something that they teach dogmatically, which in reality makes you the determiner of what must be believed.
For the sake of argument Ben, let’s just say that there are only ten Protestant denominations. None of them teach that they are infallible when interpreting scripture. Why should I believe anything they say when not one of them claims that they have the authority to teach without error in God’s name?
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benhur
Guest
Duane, here is a problem you may have, belief in* once right always right.* That where God has graced leadership in the past with correct decreeing on faith and morals, be it in a bishop, or a pope, or in a council, God will always continue to do so unconditionally. So you are not saying the church got canon right simply because she did, but because no matter what she would have said, it has to be infallible. That is what you are proposing to me, ORAR unconditionally.
That is right. It is a spiritual book and must be seen thru the spirit. Last I heard every human is made in His spiritual image, and have the potential to have their spirit restored, regenerated, back to Life, from which to understand with and in.
And the reason to grant infallibility ? Does it not shut everyone else out ? I understand truth is absolute, and if we hold on to any truth it automatically shuts out others, but to shut out everyone with no wiggle room to be sharpened by another brethren/church ?
Private interpretation as negatively portrayed by Peter is not having a private, personal interpretation, it is having the wrong one, the one not inspired by God, for we are all to strive" to get it" personally.
As far as the underlined, yes, you do that also, we all do. We all make the decision on what to believe for ourselves. No one can do that for you. For example, you have decided to believe everything the CC has decreed on faith and morals. I have decided to believe 80% of it and 20% what others have decreed. We all have to personally “make hay” from what we hear from parents, to pastors and priests and teachers, and councils, and magisteriums, and scripture etc., etc…
John says, “we know all things and we have an unction from the Holy Spirit, little children”.
“But there is a spirit in man: and the inspiration of the Almighty giveth them understanding.” Job 32:8,
And would you believe one if they claimed infallibility ? I am sure out of 30,000 there must be one in the bunch.
If you were unchurched and a church leader were to walk up to you and say they were infallible in teaching , and even gave you evidences, would you believe them ?
Blessings
M
Memaw
Guest
No–Yes-- Why try to have it both ways?? Either they were excommunicated or they weren’t. God Bless, Memaw
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zz912
Guest
If this is the theory you are clinging to, then it is beholden upon you to determine when and where the infallibility ended. Why did it end? And why did Jesus’ promise about the gates of hell fail?
Yes, it shuts out those who refuse communion with the ONE Church that Jesus built. Communion with Jesus through His Church is offered to all, but you don’t get to change or alter that communion. It is a package deal and you must choose whether you accept it all or reject it all.
And what does the Bible tell us to measure our private interpretations against to know if they are right or not? What is the pillar and foundation of the truth?
So is it okay if I believe that Jesus was a great prophet, and was the angel Michael, and from God, and He is Lord? That aligns with about 50% of Catholic teaching, is it okay to believe that?
The reason you believe 80% and 20% is because you have set yourself up as the ultimate decider of the faith. And that’s not scriptural nor Christian.
I would begin by asking them to lay out their case for their infallibility. Give me the evidence, show me where this infallibility was given and by whom and when. From there I would look into their claims and compare it with history, logic and reason.
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benhur
Guest
Hi zz
You are asking question out of your paradigm (CC is infallible, if not now when did it depart ?). My paradigm is that she was never infallible, and that her guidance was always conditional. It does not presume God’s graces no matter what.
That is why you have O’s and P’s.
"Pacify those who contend’’, Didache
Certainly it is in the confines of the church. I mean the OT folk did not judge visions by Buddhist standards but from Judaism. Furthermore, the bible in Timothy says we can be perfect thru the Written Word. The church also must know on how to gage its interpretations accordingly also.
Only if you want to be a JW.
You misunderstood. We are all the ultimate decider of whom we will believe. Did you not decide to be Catholic ?
And all these evidences, claims, and history as told by whom, the same infallibility claimant ? But yes, I think you would be (have been) studious.
Blessings
A
adf417
Guest
Ben don’t be to hard on zz. Sometimes it slip the Catholic mind that not all protestants agree with the protestant paradigm even when it comes to agreement of the Catholic paradigm.
Peace!!!
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zz912
Guest
So the canon of the Bible is a fallible list. The entire support and basis for your faith evaporates with your claim here.
And there’s the problem when you proof-text a single verse or sentence from a book. Looking to that one sentence from the Didache, and ignoring the several chapters about correct teaching, proper bishops, judging actions and teachings, and being wary of false teachers.
If there is a church that we can turn to so that we can know the truth, then that church must be ONE, and it must teach only ONE faith. It’s simply not possible for Jesus’ true church to consist of a Catholic Church with teaches that abortion is always evil and wrong, and an Episcopal Church that teaches that it’s okay or even good in certain situations. That is a god of confusion, which is not Jesus. He is a God of unity and clarity.
Also, it needs to be pointed out, you have changed Scripture. Timothy doesn’t say we can be perfect through the written word. It says that Scripture is needed to make a man complete or perfect, but it doesn’t say that Scripture is ALL that is needed, or that a man can be complete with ONLY Scripture. In fact verse 14 says the opposite.
You intentionally sidestepped my question and my point. You set the bar that it’s okay for you to accept 80% of Christian teaching, and reject the other 20%. I asked why it was okay for your to do that, and not okay for others to only accept 50%. So are the JW’s in serious error or not? Why is there a sliding scale of beliefs for you, but not them?
Yes, I chose to become Catholic, and accepted what she teaches as a whole. I didn’t create her doctrines. But the same is not true in the Protestant world. A Protestant can disagree with doctrines in their church, and look around for another denomination or a different church in the same denomination who agrees with them. Or even start their own denomination. They are the ones deciding doctrine, not the church.
Look to the writings of the Christians who learned the faith directly from the Apostles. Read what they wrote, and what they believed. Read the writings of the early Christians who died for the faith, and see if what they believed matches up with what you believe.
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benhur
Guest
Hi zz
You misconstrued my sentence. You took the negative (underlined it) and skipped the positive. The Holy Spirit guides perfectly but conditionally,according to His will. The church received full guidance with NT books.
Blessings
will finish responding later Lord willing.Thank you
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zz912
Guest
So you agree then that the Catholic Church was infallible when it determined the canon of the Bible, correct?
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John_Lazarus
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Well, there’s the Pope thing…
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benhur
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No. I am saying the Lord saw fit thru the Holy Spirit to position the Church to receive His guidance on the matter.
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JMM1957
Guest
You make it sound like these differences are insignificant. When Christ returns, we’re not all going to be on the same page or up to the same speed on everything. We can’t even get all Catholics to agree on the same things, and I’m quite sure all other denominations have the same issues with their people, if they are honest about it. Some differences are very minor, no question about it, but others are no small matter. When the NT speaks of having unity of teachings, being of one mind, and believing in the word of truth that was handed down to us, was that just a suggestion? Oh yes, and how about that authority thing, you know, the pope and magisterium, was that only for those people who profess to be Catholic, do they need special guidance more than the others?
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Duane1966
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You do realize that by saying she was not infallible even on the canon of the NT, you are saying that the list of the NT has errors? Under your paradigm, just because the Church was in position to be guided does not entail that she followed.
Ben, how do we know when the Church is infallible and when she isn’t? Can a person still call themselves a Christian if they have sincerely held convictions, disagree with what the Church teaches in a council, and start their own denomination? If yes, when does Jesus’ words of he who hears you and he who rejects you come into play? One concievably could reject who the Lord has sent, and still believe that they are a Christian right? But would they in fact be one?
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zz912
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So when the Church received His guidance on the matter, was there a possibility that the Church made an error on the canon of the Bible?
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JMM1957
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Pardon me, but I’m still trying to come up to speed here on what this statement “to position the Church” actually means? Would this be the same as the Lord putting “you” in a position to receive His guidance and “you” rejecting it? It is possible then for anyone to reject the guidance of the Holy Spirit, individuals, church’s, councils, popes, magisteriums, etc. So, using your logic, there is no way to know for sure that anyone has the correct teachings of our Lord, or even if the Bible is translated correctly or has the correct amount of books in it, or even the correct books in it. Is this what you are saying? What a sad state this world would be in if this were true.
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Thorolfr
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I think that the Church made some errors. Luther, for example, called James an “epistle of straw,” so it was probably a mistake to put that in the canon.
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JMM1957
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Yes, abortion and contraception both. Just looking at these two examples of behavior that is supported in certain church’s tells me something is not quite right there. Can anyone honestly say that Jesus would tolerate opposite viewpoints on two issues such as these?
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JMM1957
Guest
I hope I am interpreting yourI think that the Church made some errors. Luther, for example, called James an “epistle of straw,” so it was probably a mistake to put that in the canon.
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