Trent Horn - Does it matter which Christian denomination you belong to?

[Duane1966]

Originally Posted by benhur
My paradigm is that she was never infallible, and that her guidance was always conditional. It does not presume God’s graces no matter what.

From John:16

13* But when he comes, the Spirit of truth, he will guide you to all truth. He will not speak on his own, but he will speak what he hears, and will declare to you the things that are coming

From Benhur 3

13* But when he comes, the Spirit of truth, he will guide you to all truth conditionally, basically when the Spirit feels like it. And if you disagree with how the Spirit is guiding the Church, then that’s okay, because this must be one of those conditional times. He will not speak on his own, but he will speak what he hears, and will declare to you the things that are coming. Just remember it is all conditional, because the Father and I like confusion.

 

[benhur]

So, saying all of this, and I assume you would agree with it so far, then how can you deny that it would not be possible for a single Church to be established by Jesus to carry out the mission of teaching trustworthy doctrine, not in just some cases, but in all cases?

I do agree that Christ could establish one church to carry out that trustworthy mission. I just disagree that it is only your church that is the church. I disagree that *only *other churches have tares, false prophets.

If the Apostles were completely trustworthy, then how is it that their carefully chosen successors would not be trustworthy in doctrine also?

They were trustworthy. Again the problem is assuming or defining what proper succession is, that just happens to include all your clerics and no others. The mode of operand of the old covenants was to allow the wheat with the tares, the rise and fall of false prophets, and the allowance of teaching authority to take it’s course without any one supreme authority. The Saduccees and the Pharisees and the Essenes each contributing something, yet none supreme. And always there was a true remnant, a true voice on any matter at hand. His Truth marched on, delivering eventual freedom for the world’s from sin, thru and despite His chosen covenant carrier. The good ,the bad and the ugly of it. To Him be the glory, right?

Did the Holy Spirit lose some effectiveness after the Apostolic era was over?

NO. There is an old saying about absolute power or authority, and its effectiveness over time.

Even though Scripture indicates that false teachers would appear and lead people astray, is it not still possible that the fullness of these trustworthy teachings and doctrines could be preserved within that one true Church, and the way to salvation could be found there? Doesn’t seem too difficult a task for God to accomplish.

Yes, the Lord is true to His promise, and His truth is marching on, via the Body , the Church.

Bessings

 

[benhur]

You keep avoiding giving simple answers to simple questions.

So for well over 1000 years, the Church has been infallible in its declaration of the NT canon. Yes or No?

The church has been correct in holding to the 27 books thru the ages. I feel I have given proper credit and honor as due to the Church, and perhaps you want more. Infallible is a word I do not wish to attribute to any church unfortunately, due its misunderstanding by some. Only God as infallible is best to be understood first and foremost.To Him be all the glory.

Blessings

 

[benhur]

If that is correct, then I ask, how is a believer or would be believer to find that one set of Truth’s in one place, which common sense and logic tells me should be the way the Spirit would work.

It is in one place, in the personhood of Jesus Christ . Look no further. He is also manifest in His body, the church . Look no further. He is is Christianity fully, not Buddhism, Hinduism, Islam, etc., etc… Just as salvation of the world was with the Jews thruout OT, so is salvation and formation of His bride in Christianity now.

Blessings

 

[JMM1957]

It is in one place, in the personhood of Jesus Christ . Look no further. He is also manifest in His body, the church . Look no further. He is is Christianity fully, not Buddhism, Hinduism, Islam, etc., etc… Just as salvation of the world was with the Jews thruout OT, so is salvation and formation of His bride in Christianity now.

Blessings

Understood, Jesus Christ is the Truth. But Jesus also said in Matt. 7:22, “many will say to me Lord, Lord on that day”. This indicates that there will be those who acknowledge Jesus for who He is, and believe that they have done His Father’s will their whole lives, but in the end will be rejected by Our Lord, “depart from me, I never knew you.” It is very clear, whether or not you accept it or not is another thing, that Jesus is only going to accept those who do His Father’s will, and His Father’s will does not change depending on the denomination. Simply confessing Jesus as your Lord and Savior is not enough for salvation, as the above verse states. If that was all that was required for salvation to be guaranteed, then the Bible, especially the NT could be condensed down to a mere couple verses. Jesus died for our sins, our trespasses, but adhering to incorrect doctrine is another matter altogether.

 

[spedteacherita]

Understood, Jesus Christ is the Truth. But Jesus also said in Matt. 7:22, “many will say to me Lord, Lord on that day”. This indicates that there will be those who acknowledge Jesus for who He is, and believe that they have done His Father’s will their whole lives, but in the end will be rejected by Our Lord, “depart from me, I never knew you.” It is very clear, whether or not you accept it or not is another thing, that Jesus is only going to accept those who do His Father’s will, and His Father’s will does not change depending on the denomination. Simply confessing Jesus as your Lord and Savior is not enough for salvation, as the above verse states. If that was all that was required for salvation to be guaranteed, then the Bible, especially the NT could be condensed down to a mere couple verses. Jesus died for our sins, our trespasses, but adhering to incorrect doctrine is another matter altogether.

Will there not be Catholics also in that group as well as Lutherans, Anglicans, Presbyterians, and all the other denominations? The Spirit works thru all people whether they follow or belong to the Church. As a baptized Christian, I believe that I will not have the Lord say those words to me. How awful it will be to those who thought they had done the right things and didn’t…It isn’t what you do or how you do it, it comes down to what you believe and and having the Spirit work through you to share Christ’s atoning sacrifice with others.

God bless!!

Rita

 

[JMM1957]

Will there not be Catholics also in that group as well as Lutherans, Anglicans, Presbyterians, and all the other denominations? The Spirit works thru all people whether they follow or belong to the Church. As a baptized Christian, I believe that I will not have the Lord say those words to me. How awful it will be to those who thought they had done the right things and didn’t…It isn’t what you do or how you do it, it comes down to what you believe and and having the Spirit work through you to share Christ’s atoning sacrifice with others.

God bless!!

Rita

Who are those then that will be rejected by Our Lord in Matt. 7:22? Why were they rejected, what did they do or not do that they lost eternal life? Yes, it would be an awful thing to hear the Lord say those words to you, so why would He do it? Saying you believe is simply not enough is it?

 

[spedteacherita]

Who are those then that will be rejected by Our Lord in Matt. 7:22? Why were they rejected, what did they do or not do that they lost eternal life? Yes, it would be an awful thing to hear the Lord say those words to you, so why would He do it? Saying you believe is simply not enough is it?

All denominations have people who sit in church and claim to be Christian but aren’t. We have families that have grown up within these churches and they’ve become social “clubs” if I may put it that way. I cannot nor will I judge who will or will not be part of one group or another - my point was that there will be people turned away from Christ who were from all denominations - who did not take Jesus’ words to heart and did not follow the Spirit who had been trying to help them. I’m no theologian and my words are bad but importance must be placed on all people within our churches - those who profess to be Christians - how important it is to be “with and in” Christ.

 

[In_His_Grace]

Who are those then that will be rejected by Our Lord in Matt. 7:22? Why were they rejected, what did they do or not do that they lost eternal life? Yes, it would be an awful thing to hear the Lord say those words to you, so why would He do it? Saying you believe is simply not enough is it?

Saying you believe is simply not enough is it?

Yes

Therefore they said to Him, “What shall we do, so that we may work the works of God?” Jesus answered and said to them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent.” (John 6:29-29)

 

[benhur]

Yes

Therefore they said to Him, “What shall we do, so that we may work the works of God?” Jesus answered and said to them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent.” (John 6:29-29)

Touche !:knight2:

 

[benhur]

Understood, Jesus Christ is the Truth. But

HiJMM,

I would like to just pause and say good, we agree, and maybe leave the" buts" for another day. Yet that is definitely part of the thread.

Jesus also said in Matt. 7:22, “many will say to me Lord, Lord on that day”. This indicates that there will be those who acknowledge Jesus for who He is, and believe that they have done His Father’s will their whole lives, but in the end will be rejected by Our Lord, “depart from me, I never knew you.”

Yes, this is a warning for all of Christianity (not Buddhism, Islam, etc.,).

Now is it that they do not really know Jesus, or that they work iniquity or one follows the other ? The warning is also for those who do good corporal works even the miraculous, how could that be “inequity”? Is the iniquity those who preach good works without first preaching “knowing” Him ? It is clear that "knowing Him is paramount for twice the Lord mentions it as the game breaker, before anything else. It is like if you truly know Him, you will truly be religious. The good works will follow. The gospel is not about righteous works but about saving grace by faith foremost. The works follow from new birth. New birth comes from meeting Him, thus knowing Him , in truth and spirit. The new man will have his works. The old man’s works avail him nothing, no matter how religious, even miraculous (miraculous for His name sake, and not necessarily because, of the alleged “believer”).

Remember also Nicodemus. He was of the true faith, accomplished in teaching and ordinances (circumcision, bar mitzvah). Yet he was not born of the spirit, born again. Nicodemus actually worked iniquity by leading others away from Christ, even if just by example of non acceptance of the finally arrived Messiah. Can you think of a worse iniquity ?

Again, it centers first and foremost on the personhood of Jesus, and thereafter on functioning in His Body.

Jesus died for our sins, our trespasses, but adhering to incorrect doctrine is another matter altogether.

Sorry JMM, for I understand and partly agree with you here, but I also feel it is a way of putting one’s place in the Body of Christ *ahead *of first "knowing’’ Him, being born of the spirit. It is like worrying about how you will be discipled (which church and doctrines you will belong to) before you are even a disciple/born again.

Our first and primary goal should be giving the word of God out about Jesus, to meet Him. As soon as you interject narrower sectarian views, (gotta make them a Catholic or a Baptist or Lutheran) you jeopardize the first mission. Yet P’s may stress being P and not C inherently because they feel CC does not stress this new birth enough or through works. C’s probably inherently do not want possible converts to be P’s because they think P’s do not stress works. So I guess we both go in according to our faith, with some sectarian view. Yet I would think or hope all P’s stress a personal Christ before their one church amongst the thirty thousand.

Blessings

Blessings

 

[benhur]

All denominations have people who sit in church and claim to be Christian but aren’t. We have families that have grown up within these churches and they’ve become social “clubs” if I may put it that way. I cannot nor will I judge who will or will not be part of one group or another - my point was that there will be people turned away from Christ who were from all denominations - who did not take Jesus’ words to heart and did not follow the Spirit who had been trying to help them. I’m no theologian and my words are bad but importance must be placed on all people within our churches - those who profess to be Christians - how important it is to be “with and in” Christ.

Hi Rita,

Good to see you post. Very well said.

Maybe I will repeat this old story: A weary pilgrim sees the Pearly Gates in the distance with St Peter at the gates. He calls out, “St Peter, got any Baptists up there ?” “No”, says St Peter. “Got any Lutherans ?” “No”. “Any Catholics ?” “No” “Then who do you have up there St Peter ?”, asks the puzzled pilgrim. “We don’t go by those names up here, and have only those souls who have been washed by the Blood of the Lamb”, replies St. Peter.

Blessings teacher

 

[Duane1966]

Touche !:knight2:

You both miss the point made by JMM. Saying you believe does not entail that you actually believe. As with faith it is our actions that prove whether we actually believe.

 

[In_His_Grace]

You both miss the point made by JMM. Saying you believe does not entail that you actually believe. As with faith it is our actions that prove whether we actually believe.

You mean justified before men by our works? James would completely agree with you. Why did James stress being justified before men by our works? As someone once said “Preach the Gospel at all times and when necessary use words.”

God’s blessings.

 

[benhur]

You both miss the point made by JMM. Saying you believe does not entail that you actually believe. As with faith it is our actions that prove whether we actually believe.

Yes, thank you. Prove is one thing, make ( a new creation) is something else. Jesus, when you meet Him as Savior and Lord, makes you anew. The inequity is to do good works/actions and think, profess, yourself to be "Christian’’. Shall we boast then that we have been baptized, or confirmed, or made an altar call, or do this ministry or that, or never miss a Sunday service? Maybe, but it could all be vain, even iniquity making people think these things save you, justify you, without first meeting the Lord and being made anew in pure grace…

The point is, we can say what we want ,do what we want, have belief and actions, yet it is vain if we are not born of the spirit. " I did not know you" or “Well done, let us sup together again” are still the two options of import.

Blessings

 

[JMM1957]

You mean justified before men by our works? James would completely agree with you. Why did James stress being justified before men by our works? As someone once said “Preach the Gospel at all times and when necessary use words.”

God’s blessings.

You are misunderstanding James, but then again, so did Luther. Where in James do you see the mentioning of “justified before men by our works”? James is speaking of being justified before God, not men, because of our works. Works should follow genuine faith, our works are faith in action. To be truly justified, you must have both working together, each by itself is not complete.

 

[JMM1957]

Our first and primary goal should be giving the word of God out about Jesus, to meet Him. As soon as you interject narrower sectarian views, (gotta make them a Catholic or a Baptist or Lutheran) you jeopardize the first mission. Yet P’s may stress being P and not C inherently because they feel CC does not stress this new birth enough or through works. C’s probably inherently do not want possible converts to be P’s because they think P’s do not stress works. So I guess we both go in according to our faith, with some sectarian view. Yet I would think or hope all P’s stress a personal Christ before their one church amongst the thirty thousand.

Do you know of any denomination that emphasizes what church to belong to before they even mention Jesus name, when they are first talking with a non-believer? I don’t. That first and primary goal that you mentioned, involves not just hearing of Jesus, or as you say, meeting Him, but should be accompanied by or closely followed by accurate teaching. How long does it take for someone to say “I accept Jesus as my Lord and Savior”? There has to be some foundation layed, however small, before someone can even get to the point of accepting Jesus from the heart.

 

[spedteacherita]

Do you know of any denomination that emphasizes what church to belong to before they even mention Jesus name, when they are first talking with a non-believer? I don’t. That first and primary goal that you mentioned, involves not just hearing of Jesus, or as you say, meeting Him, but should be accompanied by or closely followed by accurate teaching. How long does it take for someone to say “I accept Jesus as my Lord and Savior”? There has to be some foundation layed, however small, before someone can even get to the point of accepting Jesus from the heart.

I think that coming to Jesus can be any way He desires and that the Holy Spirit works within. My mother was converted by watching a Billy Graham crusade on TV. She had no foundation then but was able to get that by attending church afterwards and being baptized as well. We can’t put God - Father, Son and Holy Spirit in a box as His ways are mysterious to us.

God bless!

Rita

 

[spedteacherita]

Hi Rita,

Good to see you post. Very well said.

Maybe I will repeat this old story: A weary pilgrim sees the Pearly Gates in the distance with St Peter at the gates. He calls out, “St Peter, got any Baptists up there ?” “No”, says St Peter. “Got any Lutherans ?” “No”. “Any Catholics ?” “No” “Then who do you have up there St Peter ?”, asks the puzzled pilgrim. “We don’t go by those names up here, and have only those souls who have been washed by the Blood of the Lamb”, replies St. Peter.

Blessings teacher

Thanks. I come in an lurk mostly lately as I know what the answer to any of my posts will be but this forum has helped me build my faith in Christ. Sometimes I just have to post.

Amen to your post!!

Blessings, all,

Rita

 

[In_His_Grace]

You are misunderstanding James, but then again, so did Luther. Where in James do you see the mentioning of “justified before men by our works”? James is speaking of being justified before God, not men, because of our works. Works should follow genuine faith, our works are faith in action. To be truly justified, you must have both working together, each by itself is not complete.

The Greek word,dikaiosune (justification) can mean to vindicate, to demonstrate OR to count, reckon, declare righteous dependent on context. I’ll use the following verses as examples …

Therefore we conclude that a man is justified (dikaiosune) by faith apart from the deeds of the law. (Romans 3:28) - counted, reckoned, declared righteous

Wisdom is justified (dikaiosune) by all her children (Luke 7:35). - vindicated, demonstrated

You see that a man is justified (dikaiosune) by works, and not by faith alone. (James 2:24) - vindicated, demonstrated

Works should follow genuine faith, our works are faith in action.

Agreed

To be truly justified, you must have both working together, each by itself is not complete.

Sola Fide, Solus Christus, Sola Gratia, Soli Deo Gloria