Trent Horn - Does it matter which Christian denomination you belong to?

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You are misunderstanding James, but then again, so did Luther. Where in James do you see the mentioning of “justified before men by our works”? James is speaking of being justified before God, not men, because of our works. Works should follow genuine faith, our works are faith in action. To be truly justified, you must have both working together, each by itself is not complete.
Also, our English word justification comes from the Latin word justificare. The literal meaning of the Latin is “to make righteous”. The Latin fathers of church history worked with the Latin text instead of the Greek text and were clearly influenced by it. The Vulgate, in the passages which Protestants cite in support of sola fide always uses the Latin word justificare which literally means “to make righteous” which is misleading in that the original the Greek word for justification, dikaiosune, carries the meaning of “to count, reckon, or declare righteous” in such passages. Paul and James do not contradict one another, they both believed as Protestants believe but were addressing different audiences with different intent regarding the relationship between faith and works.

Every good thing given and every perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of lights, with whom there is no variation or shifting shadow. In the exercise of His will He brought us forth by the word of truth, so that we would be a kind of first fruits among His creatures. (James 1:17-18)

pax
 
You are misunderstanding James, but then again, so did Luther. Where in James do you see the mentioning of “justified before men by our works”? James is speaking of being justified before God, not men, because of our works. Works should follow genuine faith, our works are faith in action. To be truly justified, you must have both working together, each by itself is not complete.
One of the Catholics made the comment, and I’m paraphrasing, that Protestants hold to a “do nothing theology…sit at home, read the Bible, and do nothing”. This is false.

*“Teacher, which is the great commandment in the Law?” And He said to him, “‘You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind.’ This is the great and foremost commandment. The second is like it, ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’ On these two commandments depend the whole Law and the Prophets.” (Matthew 22:36-40)

If you love Me, you will keep My commandments. (John 14:15)

We love, because He first loved us. (1 John 4:19)

But now faith, hope, love, abide these three; but the greatest of these is love. (1 Corinthians 13:13)*

In the words of Martin Luther concerning faith and works …

We are saved by faith alone, but the faith that saves is never alone.

In His Grace
 
In the words of Martin Luther concerning faith and works …

We are saved by faith alone, but the faith that saves is never alone.

In His Grace
We are saved by grace through genuine faith, and that genuine faith is COMPLETED by works.

No works alongside genuine faith = no genuine faith = no salvation.

Is it literally possible to have genuine faith but no works whatsoever? NO.

So, are we saved by genuine faith “alone?” NO.
 
We are saved by grace through genuine faith, and that genuine faith is COMPLETED by works.

No works alongside genuine faith = no genuine faith = no salvation.

Is it literally possible to have genuine faith but no works whatsoever? NO.

So, are we saved by genuine faith “alone?” NO.
So, are we saved by genuine faith “alone?”
Absolutely!

Perhaps we would agree if I were to make a slight modification to sola fide (which I won’t), sola fide formata?
 
Absolutely!

Perhaps we would agree if I were to make a slight modification to sola fide (which I won’t), sola fide formata?
:clapping:

Faith is one thing, and works are another, they each have their own definition. I think the way you see it is, works are naturally bonded to true faith, just like a water molecule must have hydrogen bonded to oxygen. Is this about how you see it? 😉
 
:clapping:

Faith is one thing, and works are another, they each have their own definition. I think the way you see it is, works are naturally bonded to true faith, just like a water molecule must have hydrogen bonded to oxygen. Is this about how you see it? 😉
Good analogy!! That’s how we see it! 👍

Rita
 
In the words of Martin Luther concerning faith and works …

We are saved by faith alone, but the faith that saves is never alone.
What? :rotfl: I am having trouble typing, there are tears in my eyes from all the laughter. Keep these quotes from Marty coming. He always makes me laugh hard! Is this quote like 50% of the time it works all the time?

So which is it? Is it faith alone that saves, or is the faith that saves never alone? It is impossible to be both. Yet Marty just said both. It is impossible to be alone, but not alone, at the same time.
 
What? :rotfl: I am having trouble typing, there are tears in my eyes from all the laughter. Keep these quotes from Marty coming. He always makes me laugh hard! Is this quote like 50% of the time it works all the time?

So which is it? Is it faith alone that saves, or is the faith that saves never alone? It is impossible to be both. Yet Marty just said both. It is impossible to be alone, but not alone, at the same time.
Faith alone saves , but in Sanctification, it produces works , it’s not contradictory.
 
What? :rotfl: I am having trouble typing, there are tears in my eyes from all the laughter. Keep these quotes from Marty coming. He always makes me laugh hard! Is this quote like 50% of the time it works all the time?

So which is it? Is it faith alone that saves, or is the faith that saves never alone? It is impossible to be both. Yet Marty just said both. It is impossible to be alone, but not alone, at the same time.
And to think that this was one of the reasons why the C’s and P’s have been apart for 500 years, they couldn’t come to an agreement on semantics.😦
 
And if it does not produce works, but truly remains alone, does it save?

By the way, the statement is contradictory.
Justification : Grace alone through faith alone
Sanctification: After justification , works are produced as a natural RESULT and fruit of faith . works do not save ( not by works lest anyone should boast) , but they are evidence of salvation after justification . (James 2:24)
By the way the statement is still not contradictory.
 
Justification : Grace alone through faith alone
Sanctification: After justification , works are produced as a natural RESULT and fruit of faith . works do not save ( not by works lest anyone should boast) , but they are evidence of salvation after justification . (James 2:24)
By the way the statement is still not contradictory.
Let’s just keep going with this, someone is bound to accidently misstate something sooner or later! 😃
 
And to think that this was one of the reasons why the C’s and P’s have been apart for 500 years, they couldn’t come to an agreement on semantics.😦
Dialogue is good. 👍

*22 Then the Lord spoke to Moses, saying, 23 “Speak to Aaron and to his sons, saying, ‘Thus you shall bless the sons of Israel. You shall say to them:

24 The Lord bless you, and keep you;

25 The Lord make His face shine on you,
And be gracious to you;

26 The Lord lift up His countenance on you,
And give you peace.’

27 So they shall invoke My name on the sons of Israel, and I then will bless them.” (Num 6:22-27)*

In the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit.

amen
 
I’d say no. The spirit of the Counter-Reformation was exorcised from the Church in the 1960s and beyond.

Sure, passionate individual apologists will attempt to convert Protestants. But you will not find this zeal among the clergy: not the Pope, the Cardinals, bishops, or even priests.

Notice that the post-Vatican II Roman Catholic Church does not attempt to evangelize non-Roman Catholic Christians. The Pope does not issue encyclicals correcting the perceived errors of Protestantism, or Mormonism, or other non-RC religions.

Mark 9:38-39
 
Justification : Grace alone through faith alone
Sanctification: After justification , works are produced as a natural RESULT and fruit of faith . works do not save ( not by works lest anyone should boast) , but they are evidence of salvation after justification . (James 2:24)
By the way the statement is still not contradictory.
From Merriam-Webster’s Dictionary:

1alone
adjective \ə-ˈlōn\

: without anyone or anything else : not involving or including anyone or anything else : separate from other people or things

: without people that you know or that usually are with you

: feeling unhappy because of being separated from other people

Full Definition of ALONE
1
: separated from others : isolated
2
: ** exclusive of anyone or anything else** : only
3
a : considered without reference to any other

Starwars,

Everyone of your alones always involves something else. How can it be faith alone, if grace is involved? How can it be faith alone, for the second faith produces works, it is no longer alone? Was Adam still alone the second Eve was produced from** his rib? **

Again, as I stated to you on another thread:

1.) A person can do works of charity, but without faith it will not save.

2.) Scripture is quite clear that a person can have faith (see below), but not perform works (sola fide), and scripture is plain that that also does not save. By the way, since a person can have faith’ and not do works, it becomes quite clear that works are NOT A NATURAL result of faith, contrary to what you have stated. If they were, then EVERYONE who has faith would be doing works, and we know that that is not true.

From St. James:
Faith and Works.* 14What good is it, my brothers, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can that faith save him?i 15If a brother or sister has nothing to wear and has no food for the day, 16and one of you says to them, “Go in peace, keep warm, and eat well,” but you do not give them the necessities of the body, what good is it?j 17So also faith of itself, if it does not have works, is dead.
18Indeed someone might say, “You have faith and I have works.” Demonstrate your faith to me without works, and I will demonstrate my faith to you from my works. 19You believe that God is one. You do well. Even the demons believe that and tremble. 20Do you want proof, you ignoramus,** that faith without works is useless?** 21Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered his son Isaac upon the altar?k 22You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by the works. 23Thus the scripture was fulfilled that says, “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness,” and he was called “the friend of God.”l 24See how a person is justified by works and not by faith alone. 25And in the same way, was not Rahab the harlot also justified by works when she welcomed the messengers and sent them out by a different route?m 26For just as a body without a spirit is dead, so also faith without works is dead.
Notice, St. James is quite clear in verse 22 that without works, faith is incomplete. Is it still faith? Yes, but incomplete.

Justification is an ongoing event throughout our lives, not a one time, event as you seem to state.

In its 6th session, 7th chapter the Trent fathers proclaim what justification is:
Code:
This disposition or preparation is followed by justification itself, which is not only a remission of sins but also the sanctification and renewal of the inward man through the voluntary reception of the grace and gifts whereby an unjust man becomes just and from being an enemy becomes a friend that he may be an heir according to hope of life everlasting (Tit. 3:7). The cause of this justification are: the final cause is the glory of God and Christ and life everlasting; the efficient cause is the merciful God who washes and sanctifies (1 Cor. 6:11) gratuitously, signing and anointing with the Holy Spirit of promise, who is the pledge of our inheritance (Eph. 1:13), the meritorious cause is His most beloved only begotten, our Lord Jesus Christ, who, when we were enemies (Rom. 5:10), for the exceeding charity wherewith he loved us (Eph. 2:4), merited for us justification by His most holy passion on the wood of the cross and made satisfaction for us to God the Father, the instrumental cause is the sacrament of baptism, which is the sacrament of faith, without which no man was ever justified finally, the single formal cause is the justice of God, not that by which He Himself is just, but that by which He makes us just, that, namely, with which we being endowed by Him, are renewed in the spirit of our mind (Eph. 4:23), and not only are we reputed but we are truly called and are just, receiving justice within us, each one according to his own measure, which the Holy Ghost distributes to everyone as He will (1 Cor. 12:11) and according to each ones disposition and cooperation.
** For faith, unless hope and charity be added to it, neither unites man perfectly with Christ nor makes him a living member of His body. For which reason it is most truly said that faith without works is dead (Jm 2:17, 20) and of no profit and in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth anything nor uncircumcision, but faith that worketh by charity (gal. 5:6, 6:15)**. This faith, conformably to Apostolic tradition, catechumens ask of the Church before the sacrament of baptism, when they ask for the faith that gives eternal life, which without hope and charity faith cannot give. Whence also they hear immediately the word of Christ: If thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
To be continued…
 
Conclusion,

Most scholars have come to the realization that **every **time St. Paul contrasts works and justification, the works he talks about are works of the law, not works of charity, including the verse you quoted. Many Protestant scholars are coming to the conclusion that Luther got St. Paul wrong:

From Dr. David Anders blog:calvin2catholic.com/?p=362
Second, Protestants have always believed Scripture should be read in context. Good scholars understand that language takes its meaning from the culture in which it is used. In the last several decades, however, many Protestant thinkers have been arguing that Luther got the context wrong when he read the Bible.
In 1977, a Protestant named E. P. Sanders changed the theological landscape with a book called Paul and Palestinian Judaism. Sanders, and many more since then, have argued that Luther read St. Paul as if he were a scrupulous Catholic monk from the fifteenth century. But Paul was a self-assured Pharisaical Jew of the first century. Luther didn’t see that he and Paul were asking different questions, had different concerns.As a result, Luther profoundly misread St. Paul. Protestant scholars like Sanders, Krister Stendahl, James Dunn, and N.T. Wright (see his book What St. Paul Really Said) have challenged a generation of Protestant leaders to rethink their objections to the Catholic Church.
Third, historical scholarship has been unraveling the Protestant view of justification.** Luther thought “faith alone” was the doctrine of the early church.** He saw the Reformation as a return to the Church’s pristine purity. But Protestant scholars now realize that this is not true. The earliest Christians were anything but Lutherans. In his book Iustitia Dei: a History of the Christian Doctrine of Justification, Protestant historian Alistair McGrath admits that Luther’s doctrine is a** complete novelty in Church history.** This fact, above all, compelled me to reexamine my objections to the Catholic Church.
At root, justification is about how God accepts us as his children. Catholic faith teaches that the grace of God changes us. We become qualitatively different through the death and resurrection of Christ. (Romans 6: 1-23) We come to share in God’s own inner life. (2 Peter 1:4) It is because of this change that God accepts us as his children. (Romans 2:13, Romans 2:25-29, Romans 8:3-4, Romans 8:13) Protestants teach a different doctrine. They say that God punished Christ in our place, so that we get off scot-free. They ignore or minimize all the Scripture that teaches Christians can lose the grace of God through willful disobedience. (Romans 8:12-13, Galatians 5:18:21, Hebrews 6:4-6, Matthew 18: 15-20)
You cannot find one ECF who believed in faith alone.

Faith alone does not save. Nor does faith and works. I can have faith, and I can do works, but without love I am nothing. And don’t forget to throw in the commandments also.
 
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