J
JMM1957
Guest
Getting hung up on “faith alone” is no different than “works”, you must have love. If fact, love is the underlying reason we do charitable works through faith.
Trent Horn - Does it matter which Christian denomination you belong to?
- Status
Getting hung up on “faith alone” is no different than “works”, you must have love. If fact, love is the underlying reason we do charitable works through faith.
B
benhur
Guest
B
benhur
Guest
Step right, step right up . Make your claim. Get and show your tickets at the door.
Grace, therefore, is a totally gratuitous gift on which man has absolutely no claim.
(From Father Hardon’s Catholic Dictionary)
Luther may have gotten it wrong, but the CC in practice certainly also had it wrong in his time. One over stressing deserved the other . A practice, culture of works certainly deserved a clean sweep of faith alone. Christians were making “claims”, getting their grace (?) tickets, all over the place in Luther’s time.
Now let the dust settle and for sure God grants us new life, and that unto His good works so ordained before the foundations of the universe. God given Faith is the vehicle to new life and new works. I have not known any great work in Christ that was not acted out in faith and love. It is a fine line that keeps the balance, lest we do as we please, or indeed work/trust in the flesh and depend on our “good standing” thru works as a sign of our persevering to the end (hope but not assurance).
Blessings
I
In_His_Grace
Guest
Hi benhur,
Yes, sola scriptura for sure. I was responding to a post related to justification so I only posted 4 of the S’s.
Blessings
B
benhur
Guest
Hi Duane,
Can you find one earlyECF that believed in indulgences ? Or that works, the amount of them, affected your justification, your assurance of heaven ?
Blessings
B
benhur
Guest
Makes good sense as I re read. Blessings
I
In_His_Grace
Guest
Have a great day benhur.
B
benhur
Guest
Hi Duane,
“Not by* works of righteousness *which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;” Titus 3:5
Seems to me works done in right standing with God do not save us, that right standing is signified in new birth. Paul was talking about all good works both OT and NT, of the law and of any new good work done even in Christ. I think it is applicable to our covenant also.
Blessings
D
Duane1966
Guest
So, you are in essence saying, that works of charity were being over stressed, and that is a bad thing? Constantly talking and putting into practice of love of neighbor is a bad thing? because that seems to be what you are saying. And you think it was a good thing to get rid of stressing works of charity, and almsgiving, by sweeping them away with faith alone?
Yes, right off the top of my head, St. Augustine and St. Cyprian come to mind. And I know there are more.
Yes, all the ECF’s wrote on how works and salvation go together. Protestants almost always try to play the amount card. I do not know of a single Catholic who worries about whether they have done enough works. At the end of my time on earth, no matter if I did little or many works of charity, I will know I could have done more. But yes works do affect our salvation. From St. Paul:
In the story about Judgment Day, (Matthew 25:31-46) where Jesus separates the sheep from the goats, the only questions that Jesus asks the multitude concern works:
- Did you feed the hungry?
- Did you clothe the naked?
- Did you give a drink to the thirsty, etc.
D
Duane1966
Guest
You need to read the new perspective on Paul. The Jews considered circumcision a work of righteousness, and that is what St. Paul is referring to in that verse you quote. So yes again St. Paul is talking about a work of the law.
B
benhur
Guest
Surely you jest ? Luther was not worried about works of charity. In fact such works were lacking at that time and needed constant reviving(St Francis, and the counter reformation especially by Jesuits).
We have to be more specific than that. We must show whether works produce salvation, even new life, or salvation produces works.
"All of them therefore were all renowned and magnified, not through themselves or their own works or the righteous actions which they had wrought, but through his will; and therefore we who by his will have been called in Christ Jesus, are not made righteous by ourselves, or by our wisdom or understanding or piety or the deeds which we have wrought in holiness of heart, but through faith, by which Almighty God has justified all men from the beginning of the world; to him be glory for ever and ever. Amen (, The Epistle of S. Clement to the Corinthians, 49, 32 )
Blessings
B
benhur
Guest
Hi duane,
We both partly agree, for faith not only justifies, regenerates, puts us in new life and good standing with God but this faith also enables to a holy, work producing, persevering walk of that new life. In that regard one should not separate faith from what it attains even produces: confession of new life In Christ, works, sacraments/rites esp. baptism, holiness, etc… That is, wording such as faith and works, or faith and baptism, or faith and holiness could be misleading as representing separate , even competing elements. They all stem form one gift , faith and new life . In that regard one could say it is faith alone, for all else derives from it. We both certainly can not and do not say by works alone, or by holiness alone, or by sacraments alone.
Certainly “faith alone” could also be misleading or misunderstood. That is if one forgets that it produces all else. Maybe the problem lies in the term “saved”, or salvation, or justified and sanctified and glorified. Many use saved as being brought from death unto life, which is the new birth. From there is sanctifying not by but towards good works.Finally is glorified with redeemed bodies. Certainly we are saved* for *all of these. Just that some would say we are not saved , even justified until the very end, and by those things, right up to the glorification stage. Hence they hope, hence they may depend on "good works’’, which to me, is opposed to “faith” alone.
Blessings
B
benhur
Guest
boo boo sorry
B
benhur
Guest
Oh good, then you agree that the by “the washing of regeneration”, is the work of the Holy Ghost, above any rite such as circumcision in this case or even our water baptism.
Blessings
I
In_His_Grace
Guest
Hi outremer,
I agree with you, the post-Vatican II Catholic Church is vastly different then the pre-Vatican II Catholic Church. I got a bit curious about the “Pope Francis to the John 17 Movement, 2015” quote in your sig line. Here’s the full text of the message zenit.org/en/articles/text-of-pope-s-videomessage-for-day-of-christian-unity-in-us and Jimmy Akin’s analysis of his message jimmyakin.com/2015/05/did-pope-francis-say-it-doesnt-matter-what-kind-of-christian-you-are-9-things-to-know-and-share.html.
Thanks.
D
Duane1966
Guest
Wrong. Luther was talking about all works. Below is your quote, are you saying there were too much works of the law in Luther’s time?
Works in Catholicism have always been works of charity, not of the law. How else can I view your quote of clean sweeping them? Luther thought St. Paul was talking about all works, not understanding that the works St. Paul meant, were works of the law. Please give me links showing that there was very little charity going on at the time of Luther.
You have to be more specific. Are you espousing OSAS? Because for the ECFs, salvation is an ongoing process, one in which we must persevere to the end. With Jesus, we can do many things, but if we don’t remain in Him, we will still be tossed into the fire.
I leave you with these quotes of Luther’s, to show you the path that his faith alone doctrine had taken him.
I always thought it was go and sin no more, but maybe it is go and sin some more.
D
Duane1966
Guest
The washing of regeneration is Trinitarian baptism.
D
Duane1966
Guest
I inserted the Catholic understanding of this verse.
B
benhur
Guest
HI Duane,
Yes, the Lord asked that . It is still an assumption that those works of charity *saved *them. For we also know of many agnostic , atheistic, and folks from other religions who have plenty of good works. Yet, the context is the church, those professing to be Christian. We also have "Christians’’ who have done good works and Christ also sends them to hell. We also know Christ asks us to be perfect, that our righteousness must exceed that of the Pharisees, if not we go to hell. You must obey all the commandments, and if you break one, even in spirit or in your heart , you have broken them all, and go to hell if unconfessed. He also said you must persevere to the end, that if you quit , you go to hell. You must also have the love of the Father,if not you go to hell.
Lot of stuff to do and be to make it heaven. It certainly can not be by faith alone some would then wrongly say. Yet I would ask does not faith thru the new life produce those things? I would say none of the things I mentioned, or that the Lord mentioned, produce one speck of life. But as you almost say, are to happen only after we have that life. It does begin and end with “I know you” and He accomplishes that righteousness in us. We are created, come to know Him, for those good works,". They do not make you a “sheep”. But a sheep is created to give wool and sustenance. Giving wool does not create , or keep created the sheep (healthy maybe but it won’t turn it into a goat otherwise).
Blessings
D
Duane1966
Guest
Hi Ben,
Can you give me a specific name? You are sure that person is in hell? Is it Luther? Melancthon? Calvin?(and Hobbes)
You’d best reread that sermon. Jesus calls them righteous, and inheritors of the kingdom. All this for what they did. To the ones he cast out, for what they did not do.
Can you give me a specific name? You are sure that person is in hell? Is it Luther? Melancthon? Calvin?(and Hobbes)- Status