Trent Horn - Does it matter which Christian denomination you belong to?

[JMM1957]

I would interpret verse 41 to say that if anyone does a good deed or some other “deed of power” in Jesus’ name they will get the reward for having done it without having to belong to a certain “in-group”. I would consider performing communion or the Eucharist to be a “deed of power.”

It’s like the passage in Numbers 11:27-29: 27 And a young man ran and told Moses, “Eldad and Medad are prophesying in the camp.” 28 And Joshua son of Nun, the assistant of Moses, one of his chosen men,[c] said, “My lord Moses, stop them!” 29 But Moses said to him, “Are you jealous for my sake? Would that all the Lord’s people were prophets, and that the Lord would put his spirit on them!”

So not only certain people can be prophets.

So, if some of these people who were not followers of Jesus, they were driving out demons in His name, what reward would they get? The reward goes to “anyone who gives a cup of water to those who belong to Christ.” Could that be someone of any religion?

How does this passage fit in with your interpretation? “Not everyone who says to Me, Lord, Lord, will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter. Many will say to Me on that day, Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles? And then I will declare to them, I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.” Matt. 7:21-23

 

[JMM1957]

I would interpret verse 41 to say that if anyone does a good deed or some other “deed of power” in Jesus’ name they will get the reward for having done it without having to belong to a certain “in-group”. I would consider performing communion or the Eucharist to be a “deed of power.”

Are all the various forms of understanding communion or Eucharist that are practiced by Christians equal in your opinion? Does it matter how we understand it, or what we believe it to be?

 

[JMM1957]

It’s like the passage in Numbers 11:27-29: 27 And a young man ran and told Moses, “Eldad and Medad are prophesying in the camp.” 28 And Joshua son of Nun, the assistant of Moses, one of his chosen men,[c] said, “My lord Moses, stop them!” 29 But Moses said to him, “Are you jealous for my sake? Would that all the Lord’s people were prophets, and that the Lord would put his spirit on them!”

So not only certain people can be prophets.

Eldad and Medad were on the list of the seventy elders that were to get the spirit, they were not with the rest though, they had stayed in the camp, and the spirit came upon them also. How is it that you see the two men in Numbers as similar to those in Mark 9 that were driving out demons. Eldad and Medad were true elders and had authority, the ones in Mark 9 were not followers of Jesus.

 

[Thorolfr]

Eldad and Medad were on the list of the seventy elders that were to get the spirit, they were not with the rest though, they had stayed in the camp, and the spirit came upon them also. How is it that you see the two men in Numbers as similar to those in Mark 9 that were driving out demons. Eldad and Medad were true elders and had authority, the ones in Mark 9 were not followers of Jesus.

I’m just saying that God can bestow the ability to perform deeds of power or to prophesy to anyone and at any time and place He desires, and this will not necessarily always be based on our own ideas about who should have these abilities or when and where they should be exercised. God is bigger than just one group or one church or one denomination or one religion. He doesn’t always fit into the little boxes that we often put Him into.

 

[PRmerger]

I’m just saying that God can bestow the ability to perform deeds of power or to prophesy to anyone and at any time and place He desires, and this will not necessarily always be based on our own ideas about who should have these abilities or when and where they should be exercised. God is bigger than just one group or one church or one denomination or one religion. He doesn’t always fit into the little boxes that we often put Him into.

Very Catholic, this.

 

[outremer]

Overall, I love Pope Francis’s message to the ecumenical John 17 movement. He delivered a video message to this group back in May when they gathered in Phoenix.

The devil knows Christians are one, says Pope Francis

“I feel like saying something that may sound controversial, or even heretical, perhaps,” he said in the video. “But there is someone who ‘knows’ that, despite our differences, we are one. It is he who is persecuting us. It is he who is persecuting Christians today, he who is anointing us with (the blood of) martyrdom.”

The devil, he said, “knows that Christians are disciples of Christ, that they are one, that they are brothers! He doesn’t care if they are Evangelicals or Orthodox, Lutherans, Catholics or Apostolic … he doesn’t care! They are Christians.”

Despite our differences, we are all Christians. I love it. This should put an end to this denominational disagreement.

 

[JMM1957]

Overall, I love Pope Francis’s message to the ecumenical John 17 movement. He delivered a video message to this group back in May when they gathered in Phoenix.

The devil knows Christians are one, says Pope Francis

Despite our differences, we are all Christians. I love it. This should put an end to this denominational disagreement.

I agree with Pope Francis on this, but this is not the end of the story, The title of this thread is “does it matter which denomination you belong to.” We are talking about the end result of our faith, which is salvation. The Church has put before us those things that must be part of the Christian life, and unfortunately, there are those that proclaim to be Christian that don’t follow the plan.

 

[estesbob]

Overall, I love Pope Francis’s message to the ecumenical John 17 movement. He delivered a video message to this group back in May when they gathered in Phoenix.

The devil knows Christians are one, says Pope Francis

Despite our differences, we are all Christians. I love it. This should put an end to this denominational disagreement.

So you believe you personal interpretation of a short comment made by the Pope overturns 2,000 years of teachings and traditions? Coming to profound theological conclusions based on something you googled really doesn’t prove anything. Ill stick with the Cathecism

 

[JMM1957]

So you believe you personal interpretation of a short comment made by the Pope overturns 2,000 years of teachings and traditions? Coming to profound theological conclusions based on something you googled really doesn’t prove anything. Ill stick with the Cathecism

 

[JMM1957]

I’m just saying that God can bestow the ability to perform deeds of power or to prophesy to anyone and at any time and place He desires, and this will not necessarily always be based on our own ideas about who should have these abilities or when and where they should be exercised. God is bigger than just one group or one church or one denomination or one religion. He doesn’t always fit into the little boxes that we often put Him into.

If you are saying God desires all to be saved, then yes I agree with that.

 

[outremer]

So you believe you personal interpretation of a short comment made by the Pope overturns 2,000 years of teachings and traditions? Coming to profound theological conclusions based on something you googled really doesn’t prove anything. Ill stick with the Cathecism

During the prophesied Messianic age, the Torah/Hebrew Bible states that “Though all the peoples walk Each in the name of his god, As for us, we will walk In the name of the LORD our God forever and ever.” Micah 4:5. It will come in the last days.

They will walk in the name of their gods, and we will walk in the name of our God.

Doesn’t sound to condemning of non-believers.

 

[benhur]

From Jimmy Akin:

Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works…Now, is this blessing only for the Jews, or is it also for uncircumcised Gentiles? Well, we have been saying that Abraham was counted as righteous by God because of his faith. Rom 4

 

[PRmerger]

Overall, I love Pope Francis’s message to the ecumenical John 17 movement. He delivered a video message to this group back in May when they gathered in Phoenix.

The devil knows Christians are one, says Pope Francis

Despite our differences, we are all Christians. I love it. This should put an end to this denominational disagreement.

We’ve already been through this. In July we had this discussion.

You have misquoted Pope Francis.

And if you do this again, you will be reported for intentionally maligning what the Pope said.

The quote was incorrect, outremer.

Read this by Jimmy Akin:

Did Pope Francis actually say that Jesus doesn’t care what kind of Christian a person is?

No. The Zenit story is flatly incorrect.
Both the headline and the passage quoted above mistake the pope as speaking about Jesus when he is actually speaking about the devil—that is, he is saying that the devil doesn’t care what kind of Christian you are.
Here is the relevant passage from the pope’s remarks:
Division is the work of the Father of Lies, the Father of Discord, who does everything possible to keep us divided.
Together today, I here in Rome and you over there, we will ask our Father to send the Spirit of Jesus, the Holy Spirit, and to give us the grace to be one, “so that the world may believe”.
I feel like saying something that may sound controversial, or even heretical, perhaps.
But there is someone who “knows” that, despite our differences, we are one.
It is he who is persecuting us. It is he who is persecuting Christians today, he who is anointing us with (the blood of) martyrdom.
He knows that Christians are disciples of Christ: that they are one, that they are brothers! He doesn’t care if they are Evangelicals, or Orthodox, Lutherans, Catholics or Apostolic…he doesn’t care! They are Christians.
As you can see, Pope Francis establishes a chain of referents for the pronoun “he” (in “He doesn’t care”) that repeatedly identifies the individual in question as the devil.ncregister.com/blog/jimmy-akin/did-pope-francis-say-it-doesnt-matter-what-kind-of-christian-you-are-9-thin/#ixzz3f7O301J2

 

[benhur]

From Dave Armstrong:

“But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.” Rom.5
Yes “saved” can be past ,present and future. Not sure why “saved” always must mean “justified” to CC, and not sanctified or even glorified as in the latter.

 

[benhur]

From Dave Armstrong:

(For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified. Rom 2
"And the Jews ask what are the works of God. Jesus responded, "this is the work of God , believe on who He sent "

And yet shall anyone be justified by the law? Is not Paul using the law in Romans to find every man guilty, that no one has heard and kept the law ?

 

[benhur]

None of the denominations rise to the level of the Church. They don’t get to receive the grace we get from the sacraments. They don’t get their sins forgiven in the way prescribed by Jesus. They don’t get to eat his body and drink his blood as Jesus commanded us to in John six . They have foregone the intercession of the Blessed Virgin and the Saints . They have a piece of the truth but they are missing so much

Hi e,

I dare say that if you follow a Catholic and and O or P of equal commitment and maturity as a Christian, you will not be able to distinguish one from the other. That is despite *missing so much *, their spiritual vitality and integrity will equal that of the Catholic who has it all.

Blessings

 

[Duane1966]

Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works…Now, is this blessing only for the Jews, or is it also for uncircumcised Gentiles? Well, we have been saying that Abraham was counted as righteous by God because of his faith. Rom 4

You prove my point. Every time St. Paul contrasts works and faith, he is always talking about works of the law.

Romans 3:28 For we hold that a man is justified by faith apart from** works of law.**

Notice something here? St. Paul never says we are justified by faith alone. In fact he specifically mentions works of the law. Why is that? If he meant to say justified by faith alone, why didn’t he just come out and say it? Because he does not think we are justified by faith apart from works of charity. That is why he makes clear that he is talking about works of the law.​

Again from Dave Armstrong:

The “works of the law” he refers to here are not all works, but things like circumcision. In other words, we are saved apart from Jewish rituals required under Mosaic Law. Paul makes clear that this is what he has in mind, in referencing circumcision in 3:1, asking rhetorically, “Are we Jews any better off? No, not at all” (3:9), multiple references to “the law” (3:19-21, 28, 31), and the following statement:

Romans 3:29-30 Or is God the God of Jews only? Is he not the God of Gentiles also? Yes, of Gentiles also, [30] since God is one; and he will justify the circumcised on the ground of their faith and the uncircumcised through their faith.

Paul is not against all “works” per se; he tied them directly to salvation, after all, in the previous chapter:

Romans 2:6-8 For he will render to every man according to his works: [7] to those who by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, he will give eternal life; [8] but for those who are factious and do not obey the truth, but obey wickedness, there will be wrath and fury.(cf. 2:13: “the doers of the law who will be justified”)

---

Many scholars think James is written in response to a multitude of people who were misunderstanding Paul, and that is why James makes it clear that we are not saved by faith alone.

The early fathers all thought justification was an ongoing process, not a one time event.

 

[benhur]

It’s right after that verse that says we have to look to the Bible for questions like this.

And just before the verse that says we must council on the matter.

 

[Duane1966]

(For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified. Rom 2
"And the Jews ask what are the works of God. Jesus responded, "this is the work of God , believe on who He sent "

And yet shall anyone be justified by the law? Is not Paul using the law in Romans to find every man guilty, that no one has heard and kept the law ?

And for Jesus what does belief entail?

 

[benhur]

Mark 9:38-41:

Good gospel passage which kind of sends the message that Jesus might not have approved of one group of Christians saying, “that other group of Christians don’t get the reward of the body and blood of Jesus when they do communion” or “they don’t have apostolic succession” because they’re “not following us”.

Hi T,

I liken that verse as fitting also, just that we are not for Christ and His apostles (successors) if we are not Catholic, per C’s view/paradigm.

I will say it was easier when Jesus spoke it. All you had to do was be born again, get baptized, live holy. Did not have to worry about Peter being above other apostles or first amongst others, or succession thereafter. Not to mention having to worry about a bunch of other things/doctrine/practices.

Thank you for sticking to a brethren being a brethren, with no half brothers. No cliques.

Blessings