Trent Horn - Does it matter which Christian denomination you belong to?

[Thorolfr]

And I am sure you believe the church that you are in is teaching the whole truth as opposed to any other denomination, otherwise you wouldn’t be where you are, correct?

I actually doubt that any church or religion is teaching the whole truth and am more inclined to believe that many different churches and religions are teaching a part of the truth.

 

[estesbob]

I actually doubt that any church or religion is teaching the whole truth and am more inclined to believe that many different churches and religions are teaching a part of the truth.

Why would God allow his people to be ignorant of the Truth???

 

[Thorolfr]

Why would God allow his people to be ignorant of the Truth???

Only about 31% of the world’s population are Christians as of 2010 which means that the other 69% are Muslims and Hindus and Buddhists and many other religions. So why did God allow most of the people in the world living in China and Asia and Africa and the New World to live in ignorance of the Truth for most of human history?

 

[estesbob]

Only about 31% of the world’s population are Christians as of 2010 which means that the other 69% are Muslims and Hindus and Buddhists and many other religions. So why did God allow most of the people in the world living in China and Asia and Africa and the New World to live in ignorance of the Truth for most of human history?

That is why missionary work is so important. And, as the Church teaches, one can be saved if afflicted with invincible ignorance. It is those who have been exposed to the Truth and have rejected it that are most at risk

 

[JMM1957]

Only about 31% of the world’s population are Christians as of 2010 which means that the other 69% are Muslims and Hindus and Buddhists and many other religions. So why did God allow most of the people in the world living in China and Asia and Africa and the New World to live in ignorance of the Truth for most of human history?

Anyone who has ever lived on the face of the earth, and didn’t hear the Gospel preached to them until they died, are not at any disadvantage. They will get the opportunity to hear the Gospel at some point after death, Jesus desires all to be saved. We don’t know all the details of it, but it will happen.

 

[Thorolfr]

That is why missionary work is so important. And, as the Church teaches, one can be saved if afflicted with invincible ignorance. It is those who have been exposed to the Truth and have rejected it that are most at risk

In a lot of places, this missionary work hasn’t been completely successful. For example, even though the Spaniards brought Catholicism to the Maya Indians in the 16th century, the religion practiced by many Maya today is a synchretistic Maya-Catholic form of religion:

The church of John the Baptist in San Pedro Chamula in the Central Highlands of Chiapas is an epicenter of traditional Maya and Catholic syncretism. As I walked through it, there were perhaps a dozen two to eight person groups of Tzotzil Maya worshiping as they knelt on the floor of the church’s nave, praying in their native tongue, and making offerings of bottles of soda, a liquor from this region called pox, and animals. Most of them were wearing traditional clothing — sheepskin vests, wool over-skirts, and flower pattern dresses — but various individuals, mostly young men, within the gatherings also wore standard Western style jackets, jeans, and t-shirts. The worshipers were either huddled together around shrines for various saints or they were crowded around the alter beneath Jesus hanging up high upon the cross. They issued their prayers and sacrifices to their deities as they have been doing for millenia before any Spaniard step foot in the new world carrying the banner of Christianity.

According to the Maya cosmology there is a finite amount of good in the universe, which is exchanged like a commodity from person to person, man to deity, and deity back to man. One way to receive good will from God is to make a an offering of good will — which often takes the form of a sacrificed animal, liquor, or soda combined with rhythmically chanting prayers and the lighting of dozens of candles. It is my impression that giving good is thought to create a sort of goodness vacuum which sucks good back to the pious worshiper. Often, I have read, that the Maya in Chamula are praying and making offerings to the saints/ deities for good health, good fortune in important life events, or to ward off evil will. I observed two chickens, countless bottles of pox and soda being sacrificed and offered during my visit, but, reputedly, dogs and cats are also occasionally brought in and killed all the same on the church floor.

vagabondjourney.com/maya-and-catholic-religious-syncretism-at-chamula-mexico/

And by the way, I’m not criticizing the Maya because perhaps their ancient Maya religion also has some of the Truth.

The church of Saint John the Baptist in Chamula is one of the only ones in Mexico where this unique syncretism of ancient Maya and Catholic belief systems is practiced to such an open and unabashed degree. The Maya in this church identify as Catholics — as do slightly over 50% of the people of Chiapas. What is called “traditionalist Catholicism” is actually a combination of indigenous and Spanish beliefs, the Catholic overcoat, iconography, saints, churches, and elements of worship are often being veneers — fronts — for the Maya to practice their ancient faith. In this expression of religions syncretism, the Catholic Virgin Mary, the Holy Trinity, various saints, archangels, and even the devil become the “faces” of traditional deities and ancient heroes. Angels, for example, now represent the rain deities of the indigenous Maya belief system.

 

[JMM1957]

In a lot of places, this missionary work hasn’t been completely successful. For example, even though the Spaniards brought Catholicism to the Maya Indians in the 16th century, the religion practiced by many Maya today is a synchretistic Maya-Catholic form of religion:

vagabondjourney.com/maya-and-catholic-religious-syncretism-at-chamula-mexico/

And by the way, I’m not criticizing the Maya because perhaps their ancient Maya religion also has some of the Truth.

It is true that not all are on the same page in their understanding of the faith. Some are just more stubborn than others in giving up non-Christian ways.

 

[estesbob]

In a lot of places, this missionary work hasn’t been completely successful. For example, even though the Spaniards brought Catholicism to the Maya Indians in the 16th century, the religion practiced by many Maya today is a synchretistic Maya-Catholic form of religion:

vagabondjourney.com/maya-and-catholic-religious-syncretism-at-chamula-mexico/

And by the way, I’m not criticizing the Maya because perhaps their ancient Maya religion also has some of the Truth.

So??

 

[Thorolfr]

So??

You said, “That is why missionary work is so important.” But then when I point out that missionary work is often not very successful, you say, “So??”

So are you saying that it’s not very important that missionary work be successful or that religious syncretism is OK?

If you’re saying the latter, then I kind of agree. I think that religious sychretism is kind of interesting and is probably OK.

 

[estesbob]

You said, “That is why missionary work is so important.” But then when I point out that missionary work is often not very successful, you say, “So??”

So are you saying that it’s not very important that missionary work be successful or that religious syncretism is OK?

If you’re saying the latter, then I kind of agree. I think that religious sychretism is kind of interesting and is probably OK.

Your links dont prove missionary work is not successful.Missionaries spread the FAith to the far corners of the world. Read up St Isaac Jogues By your standards he was a failure By the Curches standard he was a huge sucess

 

[rnmvrck]

Really think this is the wrong question. The bible tells us that the only way to be saved and attain heaven is through Jesus Christ who fully paid for our sins, past present, and future. Jesus offers us the free gift of salvation which we must accept by confessing our sins before God, asking God for forgiveness, and then you must repent by transforming your old life into one that will follow the plan God has for you. Without repentence and walking with Jesus according to His plan for you, you will never seen heaven. So it matters very little what denomination you are if you do not follow these steps. And we all know that not everyone singing “Amazing Grace” is going to be saved. For some who knock on the door, Jesus will say “he never knew you”. Most will perish as broad is the road and narrow is the gate that only a few will pass.

 

[estesbob]

Really think this is the wrong question. The bible tells us that the only way to be saved and attain heaven is through Jesus Christ who fully paid for our sins, past present, and future. Jesus offers us the free gift of salvation which we must accept by confessing our sins before God, asking God for forgiveness, and then you must repent by transforming your old life into one that will follow the plan God has for you. Without repentence and walking with Jesus according to His plan for you, you will never seen heaven. So it matters very little what denomination you are if you do not follow these steps. And we all know that not everyone singing “Amazing Grace” is going to be saved. For some who knock on the door, Jesus will say “he never knew you”. Most will perish as broad is the road and narrow is the gate that only a few will pass.

Based on who’s interpretation of the BIble does it tell us that?

 

[estesbob]

Really think this is the wrong question. The bible tells us that the only way to be saved and attain heaven is through Jesus Christ who fully paid for our sins, past present, and future. Jesus offers us the free gift of salvation which we must accept by confessing our sins before God, asking God for forgiveness, and then you must repent by transforming your old life into one that will follow the plan God has for you. Without repentence and walking with Jesus according to His plan for you, you will never seen heaven. So it matters very little what denomination you are if you do not follow these steps. And we all know that not everyone singing “Amazing Grace” is going to be saved. For some who knock on the door, Jesus will say “he never knew you”. Most will perish as broad is the road and narrow is the gate that only a few will pass.

Based on who’s interpretation of the BIble does it tell us that?

 

[benhur]

You find the church you can trace back through history, whose bishops were ordained by bishops who were ordained by bishops<snip 2000 years> who were ordained by the Apostles?

And then you conform your views to what this church decrees?

That’s how you decide which church to join?

No, but why do you believe that is the way to pick a church ? Who told you that is the way ? Did you then exercise free will and faith ? Don’t you think I was also told how to pick a church, the way to do it, and then had to exercise free will and faith ?

 

[PRmerger]

I believe that the Magisterium taught error when they taught “Outside the Church there is no salvation” (Extra ecclesiam nulla salus).

This teaching is nothing more than a re-articulation of Christ’s teaching which is: outside of me there is no salvation.

Now, since I know that you reject Scripture as the Word of God, I’m not sure if you believe that Jesus actually said these words.

My guess is that you don’t.

It’s one of those “hard sayings” that so many folks have rejected.

It’s convenient to just take the easy, palatable, sweet things that God revealed, and then say that the things that we don’t like aren’t actually what God said.

But that’s really just creating a god in our own image, isn’t it?

Logic dictates that IF there is a God, then he’s going to make some things true that are really hard to swallow.

Otherwise, it’s just a fanciful spectre we’ve made up to pretend to worship, when it’s really just ourselves we’re worshipping.

 

[PRmerger]

No, but why do you believe that is the way to pick a church ? Who told you that is the way ? Did you then exercise free will and faith ? Don’t you think I was also told how to pick a church, the way to do it, and then had to exercise free will and faith ?

You don’t think we should pick the Church Christ started?

Really?

 

[PRmerger]

You don’t think we should pick the Church Christ started?

Really?

Or are you saying, benhur, that you can’t know through history which of the tens of thousands of Christian denominations is the one Christ started?

But you would agree that the best way to church shop is to shop for the Church Christ started, yes?

 

[PRmerger]

Really think this is the wrong question. The bible tells us that the only way to be saved and attain heaven is through Jesus Christ who fully paid for our sins, past present, and future. Jesus offers us the free gift of salvation which we must accept by confessing our sins before God, asking God for forgiveness, and then you must repent by transforming your old life into one that will follow the plan God has for you. Without repentence and walking with Jesus according to His plan for you, you will never seen heaven.

Very Catholic, this!

So it matters very little what denomination you are if you do not follow these steps

.

Really? So you can believe all of those things but be a member of a denomination which believes in many gods and still attain salvation?

What about believing all of those things, but refusing to forgive someone else?

Can you get into heaven if you haven’t forgiven your neighbor?

Can you get into heaven if you believe all of the above that you stated, but believe that the Epistles of Paul are worthless?

And we all know that not everyone singing “Amazing Grace” is going to be saved. For some who knock on the door, Jesus will say “he never knew you”. Most will perish as broad is the road and narrow is the gate that only a few will pass.

Very Catholic this, with the exception of the quantifier. There will be folks who will persh, and the gate is narrow. But “most”? We can’t be sure.

God made it purposefully nebulous, IMHO.

 

[opulumpu]

Indeed this is not so:

Lutherns view themselves as a valid continuation of the western church.

That said, Lutherans regect denominationalism and make a non-exclusive claim to be the one, holy, catholic and apostolic church.

I am not sure I understand what you mean by the western church…do you mean the Catholic Church?. Any way, the fact that Lutherans view themselves as a valid continuation of the western church does not make them so. You reject denominationalism and yet Lutherianism is a denomination. Ofcourse you can not make a claim to be the one, holy, catholic and apostolic church even if you want to because you do not have the credentials.

Are you saying that Lutherianisim is the continuation of the Church that existed before Luther came along. Ok and what is the name of that Church.

 

[opulumpu]

There is another thread dealing with why other denominations have kept many of the sacraments. That is my point, that at the beginning many reformers did keep sacraments to a point , yet they were still expelled. Some denominations are still very close to being Catholic, yet no cigar.

Blessings Re: Sacraments and Protestants

Benhur

Yes no cigar. Why keep some of the sacraments and not all of them. The Church is not a democracy. The relationship between Jesus and his disciples was not democratic. As you said, many reformers did keep the sacraments to a point…they chose to keep what was convenient to them and discard the others. People describe this as “cafeteria religion”; Jesus would have none of that.