Trent Horn - Does it matter which Christian denomination you belong to?

[benjamindt]

Personally, I have no problem discussing different viewpoints here as long as its done in the right spirit. There are some hit and run posters, but generally its civil.

I have no desire to hit and run. I am just concerned with things being said that seem intended to and might cause faithful catholics to be shaken and lose their faith. Perhaps I’m being over cautious.

 

[Starwarsfan2]

But nothing from your elders today in light of all the news?

Nothing to speak to Lutherans of today from your elders?

Common Confession North American Lutheran Church , Brief Statement 1932 Lutheran Church Missuri Synod , Wels Stamement of Faith, among others

 

[JMM1957]

I have no desire to hit and run. I am just concerned with things being said that seem intended to and might cause faithful catholics to be shaken and lose their faith. Perhaps I’m being over cautious.

Was not saying you are hit and run at all, just saying they do appear here and there. I do understand what you are saying though, hopefully the end result of having someone’s faith challenged is that they will grow deeper in faith by learning it better.

 

[benhur]

You don’t think we should pick the Church Christ started?

Really?

Again, we both have been told how to pick, discern, which church reflects the church He started, or just what was the church He started. We both exercise a free will decision thru faith on the matter.

Blessings

 

[PRmerger]

Again, we both have been told how to pick, discern, which church reflects the church He started, or just what was the church He started. We both exercise a free will decision thru faith on the matter.

Blessings

How do you discern which is the Church He started, ben?

I use history.

What do you use?

 

[benhur]

Benhur

Yes no cigar. Why keep some of the sacraments and not all of them. The Church is not a democracy. The relationship between Jesus and his disciples was not democratic. As you said, many reformers did keep the sacraments to a point…they chose to keep what was convenient to them and discard the others. People describe this as “cafeteria religion”; Jesus would have none of that.

Hi o,

Yes, that is how the argument goes. You say we pick, choose, democratize, cafeteria select, etc., etc… We then say you added, man made, went back to the old etc., etc…
All may be true but all have good rationale behind their faith choice on these doctrines, both sides. That is, we can discuss the rationales, and we can also discuss causes for any errors.

Blessings

 

[benhur]

How do you discern which is the Church He started, ben?

I use history.

What do you use?

So do I.(along with other things,as you probably do also).

And at some point “history” is or can be both helpful and problematic in biblical hermeneutics. I mean “this is the way it has always been done, or at least for along time and therefore…” can cut both ways. It did in OT also.

Blessings

 

[Thorolfr]

How do you discern which is the Church He started, ben?

I use history.

What do you use?

But most professional historians do not agree with the official Catholic narrative of early Christian history.

 

[PRmerger]

So do I.(along with other things,as you probably do also).

And at some point “history” is or can be both helpful and problematic in biblical hermeneutics. I mean “this is the way it has always been done, or at least for along time and therefore…” can cut both ways. It did in OT also.

Blessings

So your church can be historically traced by to the Apostles?

Can you offer a timeline, with some data to support it?

Otherwise, I respecfully say, it would seem that your church was started by a man, NOT the son of God.

ewtn.com/faith/teachings/churb4.htm

f you are a Lutheran, your religion was founded by Martin Luther, an ex- monk of the Catholic Church, in the year 1517.

If you belong to the Church of England, your religion was founded by King Henry VIII in the year 1534 because the Pope would not grant him a divorce with the right to remarry.

If you are a Presbyterian, your religion was founded by John Knox in Scotland in the year 1560.

If you are a Protestant Episcopalian, your religion was an offshoot of the Church of England founded by Samuel Seabury in the American colonies in the 17th century.

If you are a Congregationalist, your religion was originated by Robert Brown in Holland in 1582.

If you are a Methodist, your religion was launched by John and Charles Wesley in England in 1744.

If you are a Unitarian, Theophilus Lindley founded your church in London in 1774.

If you are a Mormon (Latter Day Saints), Joseph Smith started your religion in Palmyra, N.Y., in 1829.

If you are a Baptist, you owe the tenets of your religion to John Smyth, who launched it in Amsterdam in 1605.

If you are of the Dutch Reformed church, you recognize Michaelis Jones as founder, because he originated your religion in New York in 1628.

If you worship with the Salvation Army, your sect began with William Booth in London in 1865.

If you are a Christian Scientist, you look to 1879 as the year in which your religion was born and to Mrs. Mary Baker Eddy as its founder.

If you belong to one of the religious organizations known as 'Church of the Nazarene," “Pentecostal Gospel.” “Holiness Church,” “Pilgrim Holiness Church,” “Jehovah’s Witnesses,” your religion is one of the hundreds of new sects founded by men within the past century.

If you are Catholic, you know that your religion was founded in the year 33 by Jesus Christ the Son of God, and it is still the same Church.

 

[PRmerger]

But most professional historians do not agree with the official Catholic narrative of early Christian history.

So which church was around in the year 800?

 

[PRmerger]

But most professional historians do not agree with the official Catholic narrative of early Christian history.

Can you cite your sources? Where did you read that “most professional historians” don’t agree with this?

Can you offer at least 100 “professional historians” who support your assertion?

And can you cite what “official” Catholic narrative you’re referring to?

 

[Thorolfr]

So which church was around in the year 800?

How about the Church of the East:

The Church of the East (Syriac: ܥܕܬܐ ܕܡܕܢܚܐ ʿĒ(d)tāʾ d-Maḏn(ə)ḥāʾ), also known as the Nestorian Church, was a Christian church within the Syriac tradition of Eastern Christianity. It was the Christian church of the Sasanian Empire, and quickly spread widely through Asia. Between the 9th and 14th centuries it represented the world’s largest Christian church in terms of geographical extent, with dioceses stretching from the Mediterranean Sea to China and India. Several modern churches claim continuity with the historical Church of the East.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Church_of_the_East

Or how about the Coptic Orthodox Church:

The Coptic Orthodox Church of Alexandria is the largest Christian Church in Egypt, and also the largest in the Middle East overall.[1]

According to tradition, the Church was established by Saint Mark, an apostle and evangelist, in the middle of the 1st century (approximately AD 42).[2] The head of the Church and the See of Alexandria is the Patriarch of Alexandria on the Holy See of Saint Mark, who also carries the title of Coptic Pope. The See of Alexandria is titular, and today the Coptic Pope presides from Saint Mark’s Coptic Orthodox Cathedral in the Abbassia District in Cairo.

The Coptic Orthodox Church belongs to the Oriental Orthodox family of Churches, which has been a distinct Christian body since the schism following the Council of Chalcedon in AD 451, when it took a different position over Christology from that of the Eastern Orthodox Church and the Roman Catholic Church. The precise Christological differences that caused the split with the Coptic Christians are still disputed, highly technical, and mainly concerned with the nature of Christ. The foundational roots of the Coptic Church are based in Egypt, but it has a worldwide following.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coptic_Orthodox_Church_of_Alexandria

Or there was the Syriac Orthodox Church:

The Syriac Orthodox Church (Classical Syriac: ܥܕܬܐ ܣܘܪܝܝܬܐ ܬܪܝܨܬ ܫܘܒܚܐ), also known as the Syrian Orthodox Church of Antioch, is an autocephalous Oriental Orthodox church based in the Eastern Mediterranean, with members spread throughout the world. It employs the oldest surviving liturgy in Christianity, the Liturgy of St. James the Apostle, and uses Syriac as its official and liturgical language. The church is led by the Syriac Orthodox Patriarch of Antioch. The Syriac Orthodox Church traces its history to one of the first Christian communities in Antioch, described in the Acts of the Apostles (New Testament, Acts 11:26) and established by the Apostle St. Peter in AD 37.

The Church belongs to the Oriental Orthodox family of churches, which has been a distinct church body since the schism following the Council of Chalcedon in AD 451 but its roots date back to the first founded church outside Jerusalem in Antioch in AD 37 when and where the followers of Jesus Christ were first called Christians.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Syriac_Orthodox_Church

 

[PRmerger]

How about the Church of the East:

Well, that’s the same Church as my Church!

We have the same doctrines, the same sacraments…

Same with all of the others.

 

[Thorolfr]

Well, that’s the same Church as my Church!

We have the same doctrines, the same sacraments…

Same with all of the others.

Well I know for a fact that these churches do not have the same doctrines as the Roman Catholic Church. The Coptic Church, for example, has a different Christology and did not accept the Chalcedonian Creed: it “has been a distinct Christian body since the schism following the Council of Chalcedon in AD 451, when it took a different position over Christology from that of the Eastern Orthodox Church and the Roman Catholic Church.”

 

[JMM1957]

But most professional historians do not agree with the official Catholic narrative of early Christian history.

Who should we trust, the “professional historians” or the Church? We both have access to the same historical records, so what it comes down to is interpretation. If you want to believe the historians, which many non-Catholics prefer to do, then so be it. I am quite sure, that if the CC wanted to, they could find just as many historians that agree with their position as the others, so really, its a moot point.

 

[JMM1957]

Well I know for a fact that these churches do not have the same doctrines as the Roman Catholic Church. The Coptic Church, for example, has a different Christology and did not accept the Chalcedonian Creed: it “has been a distinct Christian body since the schism following the Council of Chalcedon in AD 451, when it took a different position over Christology from that of the Eastern Orthodox Church and the Roman Catholic Church.”

The fact that the Orthodox Coptic’s broke from Rome in 451 should tell you something about who was wrong.

There are two Coptic church’s today, Catholic Coptic’s and Orthodox Coptic’s. The Catholic Coptic’s broke off from the Orthodox and reunited with Rome in 1741. They (Catholic Coptic’s) actually tried breaking away a couple times during the previous few hundred years, but it wasn’t successful until 1741.

 

[JMM1957]

Well I know for a fact that these churches do not have the same doctrines as the Roman Catholic Church. The Coptic Church, for example, has a different Christology and did not accept the Chalcedonian Creed: it “has been a distinct Christian body since the schism following the Council of Chalcedon in AD 451, when it took a different position over Christology from that of the Eastern Orthodox Church and the Roman Catholic Church.”

Whose Christology do you accept, the CC or one of the other churches you mentioned?

 

[estesbob]

But most professional historians do not agree with the official Catholic narrative of early Christian history.

Which historians?
Which narrative?

 

[PRmerger]

Well I know for a fact that these churches do not have the same doctrines as the Roman Catholic Church. The Coptic Church, for example, has a different Christology and did not accept the Chalcedonian Creed: it “has been a distinct Christian body since the schism following the Council of Chalcedon in AD 451, when it took a different position over Christology from that of the Eastern Orthodox Church and the Roman Catholic Church.”

Nope. Their doctrines are the same as ours, essentially.
As well as their sacraments.

Even the office of the Papacy is recognized and respected–they just believe in “first among equals” rather than supreme.

 

[benjamindt]

The only way the protestant churches are the right churches is if Jesus is a liar and the Church that he created failed after 1500 years even though He said they’d never fail.