Tridantine (sp?) Catholics

[God_s_Child]

You guys were so helpful in my question re: why Evangelicals are considered “strange” that I thought maybe you could help me with this one:

What do you think of the Tridantine Catholic? I would really like an in-depth discussion on this, as my husband’s family believe in this. A “retired” (also an ex-communicated) Priest comes each weekend to give a Mass in the old tradition - Latin mass, women must wear veils, etc.

Thanks for your help

 

[Brendan]

God's Child:

You guys were so helpful in my question re: why Evangelicals are considered “strange” that I thought maybe you could help me with this one:

What do you think of the Tridantine Catholic? I would really like an in-depth discussion on this, as my husband’s family believe in this. A “retired” (also an ex-communicated) Priest comes each weekend to give a Mass in the old tradition - Latin mass, women must wear veils, etc.

Thanks for your help

What exactly do you meant by “Tridentine Catholics”

Do you mean those who choose to attend a Mass said under the bishops approval using the 1962 Missal.

Or do you mean those who do not recognize the normative Mass as being an authentic celebration of the Eucharist or deny the authority of the Pope to promulgate this Mass?

The first are fully Catholic and are participating fully in the Life of the Church.

The others operate in error.

 

[God_s_Child]

This is what I have been told: The people who attend these masses do so because they don’t believe that Vatican II was right. They don’t want to stray away from the old Latin mass, and they believe in the kneeling, covering of head, etc.

From what I have been told there are small groups out there who pay to have a Priest come and give them the old traditional Catholic mass each week. The reason I said ex-communicated when speaking of this particular priest is because that’s exactly what he is – put into retirement after being ex-communicated.

Another question I have is: I was under the understanding that if Priests were ex-communicated, they could not give the Sacraments? Is this correct? Because, he does do them - communion, funerals, last rights, etc.

 

[God_s_Child]

Okay, I’m bumping this up a little, because I really would like some clarification on this.

Thanks

 

[Jaypeeto3]

There are different reasons why different people attend the old Latin Mass. Some people simply prefer the beauty and reverence of the old liturgy over the often banal music etc., of the New Mass. These people probably attend “indult” Latin Masses approved by their local bishop.

Others believe that some of the conciliar and/or post-conciliar teachings are in direct conflict with the pre-1958 infallible ordinary magisterium on some issues and also prefer, for theological reasons, the old mass over the new. These people usually are found in independent chapels, or chapels of the SSPX, or of the sedevacantists (people who believe there is no valid pope reigning at the moment).

Personally, I have no objection whatever to mass being said in the vernacular, but I wish the church had simply mandated the vernacular use of the 1962 missal, which is a much more beautiful mass than the New mass, both in it’s ritual and in the richness of it’s prayers.

Love, Jaypeeto3

 

[slewi]

God’s Child:

There are several threads that have covered the traditional mass here on CA.

In a nutshell: Pope John Paul II in his 1988 Apostolic letter Ecclesia Dei granted an indult to allow the Tridentine Latin Mass:

“To all those Catholic faithful who feel attached to some previous liturgical and disciplinary forms of the Latin tradition I wish to manifest my will to facilitate their ecclesial communion by means of the necessary measures to guarantee respect for their rightful aspirations. In this matter I ask for the support of the bishops and of all those engaged in the pastoral ministry in the Church”

If there is a need in a diocese, the local bishop will make the determination. In our diocese, we not only have the TLM offered, but we have an entire parish staffed by the Priestly Fraternity of Saint Peter that offers the full gamut of catholic tradition.

If you are mentioning excommunicated priests, most likely yoou are refering to the Society of Pope Pius X, or SSPX for short. They are in schism currently with Rome, and attending their Latin mass is not permitted unless NO other form of the Roman Rite is available.

Hope this helps.

Stephen

 

[bear06]

God's Child:

You guys were so helpful in my question re: why Evangelicals are considered “strange” that I thought maybe you could help me with this one:

What do you think of the Tridantine Catholic? I would really like an in-depth discussion on this, as my husband’s family believe in this. A “retired” (also an ex-communicated) Priest comes each weekend to give a Mass in the old tradition - Latin mass, women must wear veils, etc.

Thanks for your help

There have been many in depth discussions on this topic. Just search the boards for SSPX and you’ll see what we mean.

There is no such thing as a Tridentine Catholic. There is just obedient and disobedient. There is also no problem with attending or being attached to the Tridentine Mass as long as it’s an Indult Mass (said with the permission of the bishop). The priest you are referring to sounds like he’s probably adhering to some sort of schism. Do you have an approved Tridentine Mass in your area? If so, you might want to encourage your husband’s family to attend there.

Here’s the link to Ecclesia Dei: vatican.va/holy_father/john_paul_ii/motu_proprio/documents/hf_jp-ii_motu-proprio_02071988_ecclesia-dei_en.html

Please note that one doesn’t have to adhere specifically to SSPX to be in danger of schism. This is often a mistake. People like to think that just because they don’t attend an SSPX chapel that they are safe.

 

[God_s_Child]

Hypothetically … I don’t want to use names:

A priest is found by the Catholic Church to have disobeyed the Laws of the Church and the Land – so the Church “retires” him (this was done years ago) and strips him of all priestly rights.

Can he then do the Sacraments? And if he does, are marriages legal?

 

[jimmy]

God's Child:

Hypothetically … I don’t want to use names:

A priest is found by the Catholic Church to have disobeyed the Laws of the Church and the Land – so the Church “retires” him (this was done years ago) and strips him of all priestly rights.

Can he then do the Sacraments? And if he does, are marriages legal?

No, if he is laicized he can not do the sacraments. This guy is probably in the SSPX which is a schismatic group that does not accept Vatican II. If they simply wanted the latin mass they could attend the Indult mass which follows the old order but they are in opposition to the church.

 

[Sean_O_L]

God’s child:

Hypothetically … I don’t want to use names:

A priest is found by the Catholic Church to have disobeyed the Laws of the Church and the Land – so the Church “retires” him (this was done years ago) and strips him of all priestly rights.

Can he then do the Sacraments? And if he does, are marriages legal?

There are differences between “can” and “should” (or “ought”.) These differences usually boil down, in Church and State terms, as “licit” (meaning “legal”) and “valid” (meaning effecting what is sought to be done).

Looking as the “State” situation:

Q. “can” a person (in the USA) drive normally on the left-hand side of the road?

A. Well, yes, he “can” - that is he cannot be physically forced (apart from on-coming traffic) from driving on the left-hand side.

But, he “ought” not (legally and for safety and for moral reasons.0

Looking at the Church question:

Q. “can” a person (who is validly ordained, uses the correct “matter” and “form” for a sacrament and who has the “Intention” required by the Church) - can such a person say, for example, Mass?

A. Yes, he “can” that is, he is capable of doing so “validly” - but, unless he does so with the faculties of his local bishop - then he does so “illicitly” that is, illegally. And, as with the State, he incurs a penalty.

You mention that has been stripped of all priestly rights - this usually means “suspended a divinis” and means that he is morally unable to perform ANY priestly functions - except for a person who is in danger of death.

Any-one who knows of his status and who avails themselves of his services is also knowingly going contrary to the mind of the Church and is committing a grave (mortal) sin. It would appear also that they are performing an schismatic act - for which the penalty is excommunication.

So! “can” such a person do what you describe? Yes, he “can” - but he should not - just as certainly as a satanist “can” say a Black Mass - but “should” not!

Specifically, as to Marriage: He does not have the faculties from his bishop to perform a marriage. If he does so, the marriage is neither licit nor valid. That means the couple remain in exactly the same state as they were prior to the marriage. The other consideration is as to whether he had the authority from the State to perform marriages “for the State.”

I hope that this helps?

 

[bear06]

God's Child:

Hypothetically … I don’t want to use names:

A priest is found by the Catholic Church to have disobeyed the Laws of the Church and the Land – so the Church “retires” him (this was done years ago) and strips him of all priestly rights.

Can he then do the Sacraments? And if he does, are marriages legal?

Marriages and confessions both need faculties which are granted by the local bishop. Marriages officiated without faculties are not valid. Confessions without faculties are not valid except in case of death.

One question - has this priest been laicized? or just removed by the Church from his position?

 

[YinYangMom]

God's Child:

This is what I have been told: The people who attend these masses do so because they don’t believe that Vatican II was right. They don’t want to stray away from the old Latin mass, and they believe in the kneeling, covering of head, etc.

From what I have been told there are small groups out there who pay to have a Priest come and give them the old traditional Catholic mass each week. The reason I said ex-communicated when speaking of this particular priest is because that’s exactly what he is – put into retirement after being ex-communicated.

Another question I have is: I was under the understanding that if Priests were ex-communicated, they could not give the Sacraments? Is this correct? Because, he does do them - communion, funerals, last rights, etc.

The important thing you need to know is that the Tridentine Mass is available through the Roman Catholic Church in various dioceses.

Therefore, Tridentine Mass ‘attenders’ come in two forms (though they may not know it).

The Tridentine Mass attendees you mention - those who attend masses by ex-communicated priests are in schism with the church. Their Tridentine Masses are not valid masses. They receive no benefit from attending. The fact that they oppose Vatican II reflects more upon their rebellion toward the magesterium than of their desire for the old mass.

The other Tridentine Mass attendees who participate through their diocesan bishops authorization are in full communion with the Church and receive full benefits from attending such masses. They are loyal to the magesterium, don’t agree with all of the Vatican II changes and yes, would like to go back to the old ways all around, but would not disobey the church. They attend the Tridentine out of respect for that mass and preference over the Novus Ordo, but they make certain the Mass is being offered legitimately, as they seek the Body and Blood of Christ more than anything else. To attend an unauthorized mass would be to get bread and wine and nothing more.

So when people use the term Tridentine Mass attendees around you, you should ask them to clarify - ‘authorized’ masses or ‘unathorized’ masses? If they are those who attend unauthorized masses is up to you to let them know they can attend ‘real’ Tridentine masses. They only have to contact their diocese and ask which parishes offer the Tridentine.

The Tridentine is a rich and beautiful Mass. It is appreciated by those who remember the past respectfully and fondly. It seems to be a matter of preference as to which mass people attend - Novus Ordo or Tridentine. But since in the U.S. Tridentine can only be offered with the authorization of the bishop, and not all bishops give such authorization, there are some areas where people are denied that choice. That is what those who prefer the Tridentine would like to see changed through Pope Benedict…they would like to see him lift that restriction so that all parishes are free to offer the Tridentine.

 

[bear06]

The Tridentine Mass attendees you mention - those who attend masses by ex-communicated priests are in schism with the church. Their Tridentine Masses are not valid masses. They receive no benefit from attending. The fact that they oppose Vatican II reflects more upon their rebellion toward the magesterium than of their desire for the old mass.

Actually, the Mass may be a valid Mass but it’s an illicit one. That said, if the priest has been laicized, it may be invalid too. Not sure on that though. Laicization is, unfortunately in my mind, rare.

If he was excommunicated, declared in schism or suspended then the Mass is completely illicit but may be valid. Of course, it’s still an all around bad idea to attend a schismatic Mass for the dangers warned of in Ecclesia Dei.

 

[YinYangMom]

bear06:

Actually, the Mass may be a valid Mass but it’s an illicit one. That said, if the priest has been laicized, it may be invalid too. Not sure on that though. Laicization is, unfortunately in my mind, rare.

If he was excommunicated, declared in schism or suspended then the Mass is completely illicit but may be valid. Of course, it’s still an all around bad idea to attend a schismatic Mass for the dangers warned of in Ecclesia Dei.

Ah, yes. Thank you for the clarification.
When I reread the post later it did seem a bit ‘off’.

 

[Jaypeeto3]

Actually, YinYangMom is incorrect.
The Masses offered by the breakaway groups ARE valid.
But they are also ILLICIT.
Nonetheless, you DO receive the Body and Blood of Christ at the breakaway masses, NOT bread and wine.
Still, Vatican authorities caution against attending one of these masses unless absolutely necessary so as not to give the appearance of supporting “schism”.
Love, Jaypeeto3

 

[dumspirospero]

I think you should research the topic more and come back when you don’t post inflammatory and fallacious comments such as lumping all Catholics who prefere the Tridentine Mass as a bunch of sedevacantist…then maybe someone will answer your questions.
God's Child:

This is what I have been told: The people who attend these masses do so because they don’t believe that Vatican II was right. They don’t want to stray away from the old Latin mass, and they believe in the kneeling, covering of head, etc.

From what I have been told there are small groups out there who pay to have a Priest come and give them the old traditional Catholic mass each week. The reason I said ex-communicated when speaking of this particular priest is because that’s exactly what he is – put into retirement after being ex-communicated.

Another question I have is: I was under the understanding that if Priests were ex-communicated, they could not give the Sacraments? Is this correct? Because, he does do them - communion, funerals, last rights, etc.

 

[God_s_Child]

Sorry if I offended anyone. I truly just wanted information so that I could understand my in-laws better.

Thanks for letting me post on your Board.

 

[mommyjo2]

YinYangMom:

TTo attend an unauthorized mass would be to get bread and wine and nothing more.

The state of the soul of the priest- whether in a state of sin due to schism or other actions- has no bearing on the effects of transubstantiation. An ordained priest can effect the sacrament, even without the permission of his bishop.

 

[Traditional_Ang]

God's Child:

This is what I have been told: The people who attend these masses do so because they don’t believe that Vatican II was right. They don’t want to stray away from the old Latin mass, and they believe in the kneeling, covering of head, etc.

From what I have been told there are small groups out there who pay to have a Priest come and give them the old traditional Catholic mass each week. The reason I said ex-communicated when speaking of this particular priest is because that’s exactly what he is – put into retirement after being ex-communicated.

Another question I have is: I was under the understanding that if Priests were ex-communicated, they could not give the Sacraments? Is this correct? Because, he does do them - communion, funerals, last rights, etc.

God’s Child:

Excommunicated means that he is no longer in Communion with the Church in Rome. He was probably also defrocked. However, “Once a Priest, always a Priest.” I assume that his original ordination was valid, so his soul received an indelible and unremovable stamp when he was ordained a priest. So, Assuming his ordination was valid, he is confecting valid, but illicit, Sacraments.

I would receive them only in an emergency. Otherwise, please go to a Church in union with Rome.

The best solution for him is to find a Bishop who will allow him to say the TLM in a parish that wants that and then to be normalized as a Catholic priest in that Diocese - I know of a priest who just went through that process.

Regarding him and his congregations at present - to do what they do, they have to believe not only that Vatican II was not a legitimate Council, but that the Pope is not legitimate. Many of these also believe that the present Pope isn’t even a Bishop by reason of a Defective Ordinal.

Our Lord guaranteed that he would not allow this to happen. I fail to see how our Lord would preserve the Church and the Papcy through the corrupt periods of the Middle Ages and the Renaissance and then would allow it to go to invalidity during a period of spiritual renewal and growth. It simply makes no sense.

Please kindly suggest to your friend that he ask the 21st Century Monophysite in the Mirror when he wishes to rejoin the Catholic Church and to return to Communion with the Church Christ founded.

St. Peter’s seat is NOT Empty. It is quite occupied, and occupied by a Godly man. you might ask how many of the Popes from the Middle Ages and the Renaissance were as worthy of the office as either Pope John XXIII, Pope Paul VI, Pope John Paul II or Pope Benedict XVI.

In Christ, Michael

 

[Gottle_of_Geer]

God's Child:

Hypothetically … I don’t want to use names:

A priest is found by the Catholic Church to have disobeyed the Laws of the Church and the Land – so the Church “retires” him (this was done years ago) and strips him of all priestly rights.

Can he then do the Sacraments? And if he does, are marriages legal?

In an emergency - a car crash, say - any priest can hear confessions and absolve. Otherwise, not. This is because “the supreme law is the salvation of souls” - so the priest’s status, even if he has been unfrocked, comes second to the needs of Catholics in such circumstances.​

To witness & bless marriages, priests need jurisdiction, which is also needed in ordinary circumsances, if they are to absolve validly. Without jurisdiction - which is what gives a priest the right in canon law to perform his functions within the local church for which he has been ordained a minister & into which he has been incardinated - sacraments needing it are invalid; they are not just illicit i.e., valid though unlawful - they are completely non-existent. However real the piety of Catholics who join in sacraments for which the priest has no jurisdiction may be, the sacramental acts will be sacramental only in name.

This is a simplification - not surprisingly. Hope this helps even so ##