Tridentine Mass Age Restriction?

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

tpmjr42:

Actually, I was referring to your quote, “But I do not think reading along is actually praying,” and that’s what I was commenting on. No logic needed

Guess I wasn’t totally clear but I did spell it out later when I said “When the prayers are in Latin and are being done in Latin, your reading the English is not praying the prayers as what you are reading is not what is being said.” in the next post I made.

 

[BulldogCath]

Nota is correct, Weakland was a pedopile protector and an thief

As far as him being a Bishop-since when is it written that you can not correct a Bishop? They are not infallible in any way. St Thomas encourages the laity in his writings to call out the wretched and scandalous clerics. St Paul called and reprimanded St Peter-who was his leader.

That is the entire issue here-we sit here and accept this horrible pedophile and scandal ridden Bishops and accept them as holy when many really are worse. As Sister Lucia said, the devil takes great pleasure in taking over the Priests and Bishops hearts and he has done that. And for the Vatican to continue to state, as it has done once again on Spirit Daily that Russia was consecreated in 1984 is just another fallacy on thier part.

ByzCath:

Such a disgrace. How disrespectful to speak of a Bishop of the Catholic Church in such a way.

With attitudes like this it is no wonder that some with a vocation to the priesthood do not follow it.

I do not think an age restriction is a good idea, but then the Church knows better than I do.

What I do think a good idea is having a test to test for basic knowledge of Latin. If you do not pass the test you should not attend.

 

[SFH]

ByzCath:

Actually, yes, if you are reading along on the English side of a missal you can follow the Trad Latin Mass. But I do not think reading along is actually praying.

I would also add that the Missal you speak of costs some money and not all can afford it.

The Trad Latin Mass I attended only did the Gospel in both Latin and English, I do not recall fully, but I believe that the Epistle was done in Latin only.

Also, just learning the responses is not enough.

I have heard of a bishop who was approached by a monastery in his diocese who wanted to celebrate the Office and Mass in Latin. He gave them a month and returned to test them on their profeciency in Latin. It takes more than just being able to parrot the Latin to truly pray in it.

I think you have a rather limited understanding of what it means to pray. Just because someone doesn’t understand all the declensions of a particular Latin verb or noun or the syntax of the language doesn’t mean he can’t understand the basic concepts being offered in the prayer.

There is many a child that lisps the Our Father in English and doesn’t understand quite what he’s praying, but I doubt Our Heavenly Father is counting lisping English or poor Latin against His children when they pray.

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

SFH:

I think you have a rather limited understanding of what it means to pray. Just because someone doesn’t understand all the declensions of a particular Latin verb or noun or the syntax of the language doesn’t mean he can’t understand the basic concepts being offered in the prayer.

No I do not. What matters is do we understand what we are saying when we pray.

Otherwise all it is is gibberish.

This thread is a perfect example of what I am saying.

It seems you, and others, can not understand what I am saying yet we are speaking the same language.

There is many a child that lisps the Our Father in English and doesn’t understand quite what he’s praying, but I doubt Our Heavenly Father is counting lisping English or poor Latin against His children when they pray.

This is true, but the Child does understand English and knows what a Father is. If he was praying in a language he didn’t know, such as Latin, he would not know which word was Father or which was Heaven. He would know know what he was praying.

To a limited extent I can understand using some Latin in the Liturgy, but I do not see any good in the whole Liturgy in Latin. If the people do not know the language then the Liturgy should not be done in only that language.

Again, that is my opinion and I am free to have it.

I am sorry if you have issues with that but I think the best thing that has happened is the Liturgy in the vernacular, like we in the Byzantine Churches have always had.

As for the disrespect shown to the Church and its bishops by some around here, I just look at the source and I understand where its really coming from.

 

[kk1727]

ByzCath:

The Church teaches that there are various forms of participation in the liturgy. I would agree that the vernacular is advantageous in a certain way, even the Council of Trent said so. The Ruthenian Byzantine Catholic Church near me sings some hymns in Slavic. I personally have taught myself the Ordinary of the Mass in Latin in both editions of the Roman Missal. I understand perfectly what’s being said and I do it without the hand missal. Furthermore, let’s not forget that in Sacrosanctum Concilium the Second Vatican Council taught that the faithful are to know all of their responses in Latin. In 1974 Pope Paul VI issued as a gift to all the Roman Catholic Bishops a booklet called Jubilate Deo which included the minimum repertoire of Gregorian Chant that the faithful are to required to know. I agree that it isn’t as simple as doing it in Latin and not caring what’s being said: it takes work.

I understand where you are coming from though because many of the ‘traditionalists’ I know really aren’t all that interested in Latin. They don’t speak it and some don’t care to learn. I get some weird looks at the TLM when I say the parts of the server and sing the Chants but that’s because they really aren’t all that knowledgeable in liturgical matters either. De musica sacra issued by the Sacred Congregation of Rites in 1958 called this the third degree of a more perfect participation in the Mass. The fourth degree includes the recital of the Introit, Gradual, Offertory, and Communion prayers but because I’m not familiar with all the tones I can only sometimes participate in this manner. It also means studying the Latin text to fully understand it and regrettably I don’t always prepare for Mass as fully as I should.

The list is endless but there is something to be said for the preservation of a liturgical language and the traditions of sacred ritual (all of which can be done within the context of the revised liturgy but that’s even rarer than the TLM). Many Popes who are the Patriarchs of the Western Church have spoken on this subject profusely. It does not impede someones worship to attend the sacred mysteries in another language. It does require some work. I’ve come to discover that even in the vernacular few people really understand what’s being expressed in our liturgical prayers. God, however, seeks to be worshipped in spirit and in truth and accepts the hearts which are lifted up to Him regardless if the prayer being sent with it differs in some manner from the celebrants actual words. On the other hand, all of us must seek the more perfect participation in the liturgy voiced by many Popes: Pius XII (De musica sacra), John XXIII (Rubricarum Instructum), et al. and by the Sacred Second Vatican Council (Sacrosanctum Concilium).

Pax,
Keith

 

[Nota_Bene]

ByzCath:

Such a disgrace. How disrespectful to speak of a Bishop of the Catholic Church in such a way.

With attitudes like this it is no wonder that some with a vocation to the priesthood do not follow it.

I do not think an age restriction is a good idea, but then the Church knows better than I do.

What I do think a good idea is having a test to test for basic knowledge of Latin. If you do not pass the test you should not attend.

I stand by my choice of words.

No matter how you slice it, that man had a horrible impact on the archdiocese of Milwaukee. Vocations went down the tubes, Churches underwent approved vandalism and Rembert used Church funds to make pay-offs so no one would find out about his young male sex partner.

Thanks be to G-d that Milwaukee now has a stand-up Archbishop in Timothy Dolan…

 

[pm1853]

A Latin Exam? Eeesh. Americans have a hard time with American-English as is.

The only flaw in the exam arguement is the concept of the Sunday obligation. If for example I am in an area (for kicks, lets say Latvia) where an English mass may not be readily available (though I’m sure someone is going to chime in with at least 5 English masses available in Latvia) I have a feeling that I am still obliged to fulfill my Sunday requirement (lacking a dispensation of course). I am thus required to attend mass in Latvian (or whatever language it might be).

Lets make this interesting and say I just happen to have the official Latvian-English Missal translation. Does following along in this missal mean that I am not praying, just following along? Its a tough call.

When I occasionally attend a Latin mass, though I am following along in English, I am doing my best to pray the mass. I’ve even learned some Latin along the way. I am doing my best to fully and actively participate in a way that I know how. I perhaps owe my reversion to Catholicism to the Latin Mass, though I will gladly attend any reverent mass that is available.

The example above may be a stretch, but I’m sure its happened somewhere before.

I would like to know exactly what Ecclesia Dei says on the age restriction issue. I’m 23 and I have yet to be kicked out of mass for age reasons. Thats the problem (read blessing) when a particular liturgy is declared acceptable - Any catholic, of any age, speaking any language may attend. 1962 Missal, the current Missa Normative, Anglican Use, Ruthenian, Melkite, Maronite, Syro-Malakanra, Syro-Malobar, Ukranian, etc…etc…etc…

I have a hard time believing an age restrication ever being imposed on any of these masses.