Tridentine Mass( Extraordinary Mass) or Ordinary Mass?

[Oneofthewomen]

Perhaps then you came from a very rich parish. My parish did not provide them in 1962, nor did it provide them while I was in grade school in the 50’s. Most of my classmates never saw the inside of one.

I have what my mother received when she made her First Communion in 1955. It says “My First Missal”
It is not really a missal, as the order of the Mass is not in it at all. It is filled with prayers and an explanation of what the priest is doing/saying during Mass, but it is not a side-by-side missal that I see many EF-goers with now.

So, No, Ed, not everyone in that time had a side-by-side missal, and not all missals were true “missals”.

For what it is worth, I do not know one person who was around pre-VII that wants to go back. In fact, most of the people I know that have a preference for the EF are all under 35.

 

[Phemie]

Perhaps then you came from a very rich parish. My parish did not provide them in 1962, nor did it provide them while I was in grade school in the 50’s. Most of my classmates never saw the inside of one.

I don’t recall any kids with missals back in the early 60s. Getting a Missal was almost a rite of passage to adulthood. I couldn’t wait for the day I’d be able to get one. That didn’t happen until recently. By the time I was “old enough” to get my own, the parish was using “Prions en Église” or “Living with Christ” (both by Novalis) so missals weren’t needed. I got my own St. Joseph permanent missal Nov. 2015.

 

[Kielbasi]

I don’t recall any kids with missals back in the early 60s. Getting a Missal was almost a rite of passage to adulthood. .

I was born in 1956, my first communion was in 1964. They gave us kids a kids-sized missal of sorts as part of the preparational process for the sacrament. I no longer have it, maybe its still at my mum’s house.

I guess it really wasn’t a gift from the church, but part of the book fee that was paid on my behalf.

 

[Phemie]

I have what my mother received when she made her First Communion in 1955. It says “My First Missal”
It is not really a missal, as the order of the Mass is not in it at all. It is filled with prayers and an explanation of what the priest is doing/saying during Mass, but it is not a side-by-side missal that I see many EF-goers with now.

So, No, Ed, not everyone in that time had a side-by-side missal, and not all missals were true “missals”.

For what it is worth, I do not know one person who was around pre-VII that wants to go back. In fact, most of the people I know that have a preference for the EF are all under 35.

Yes, that’s what I got when I made my First Communion.

 

[Phemie]

I was born in 1956, my first communion was in 1964. They gave us kids a kids-sized missal of sorts as part of the preparational process for the sacrament. I no longer have it, maybe its still at my mum’s house.

I guess it really wasn’t a gift from the church, but part of the book fee that was paid on my behalf.

I don’t count the little white book we got at First Communion as a true Missal. It had illustrations for each part of the Mass with an accompanying prayer but it had no Ordinary of the Mass in it.

 

[edwest2]

I have in front of me a copy of Catholic Digest from October 1958. The back cover is an ad for the St. Joseph Daily Missal. From the text: “Accurate, Clear Translation, Complete — for every day with all the latest Masses and indulgences…” “His Holiness Pope Pius XII Tells You Why A Daily Missal Is So Important. ‘So that the faithful, united with the Priest, may pray together in the very words and sentiments of the Church.’”

The buyer had the option of paying the full price of $4.95 or $2.00 a month.

The 1962 Missal issued during Vatican II is still valid. It has been reprinted in an enlarged form.

"The 1962 Daily Missal contains the English translations and the Latin originals of the rites and texts for Holy Mass and many other liturgical ceremonies that were attended by the vast majority of Roman Catholics in the centuries before the liturgical reforms of Vatican Council II took effect. The liturgy of the 1962 Daily Missal is better known as the Tridentine Mass, Traditional Latin Rite or Traditional Roman Rite and since 2007 as the Extraordinary Form of the Roman Rite .

“With its splendid texts and ceremonies that orient both priest and people entirely to the worship of God, this form of the sacred liturgy has fostered a living faith that has produced numerous saints and inspired countless artists, writers and thinkers to create much of what we now know as Western culture. Thanks to Pope Benedict XVI’s Apostolic Letter Summorum Pontificum in 2007, this form of the liturgy is now being celebrated more regularly and freely.”

Ed

 

[Don_Ruggero]

I had the 1962 Missal. In Catholic School, we were required to go to Mass during school hours. All my classmates had a Missal.

Ed

Your experiences in your American village were not what the rest of us – who were just as alive as you were – lived.

 

[Don_Ruggero]

I have what my mother received when she made her First Communion in 1955. It says “My First Missal”
It is not really a missal, as the order of the Mass is not in it at all. It is filled with prayers and an explanation of what the priest is doing/saying during Mass, but it is not a side-by-side missal that I see many EF-goers with now.

So, No, Ed, not everyone in that time had a side-by-side missal, and not all missals were true “missals”.

For what it is worth, I do not know one person who was around pre-VII that wants to go back. In fact, most of the people I know that have a preference for the EF are all under 35.

In fact, nothing could induce me to go back to that era. It was an awful time…for women. For minorities. In terms of class structure and of opportunities in life.

You know, Oneofthewomen, I find it revolting that a posters put on here about the nostalgia of a life they see through rose-coloured glasses.

Much better to talk to children living in the wake of decimation on the continent in the aftermath of the war in Europe…both East and West.

Or the children living in Africa as they lived through the throwing off of colonialism.

Or the children living in French Indochina.

Or the children in the United States who lived through segregation and the civil rights movement.

No one in those categories will be talking of nostalgia, if they have their right minds.

Speaking of the ecclesiastical side of the equation, I am very grateful…extremely grateful…for the liturgical movement which so blessed us and which laid the way for the reform and renewal of the liturgy. I could never give adequate thanks for Sacrosanctum Concilium.

I see what I lived through then and now as a progression forward. No. I would never want to go back to the way things were in that era.

The Council was the greatest event in my lifetime – and one of the greatest and transformative events in the entire history of the Church.

 

[zab]

Perhaps then you came from a very rich parish. My parish did not provide them in 1962, nor did it provide them while I was in grade school in the 50’s. Most of my classmates never saw the inside of one.

The parish that I grew up in was in a small Midwestern farming community. It was not a rich parish by any means. But like most parishes we did have some parishioners who were quite wealthy. Our parish had missals! And we responded in Latin to some of the dialog. We recited the Greek Kyrie, the Latin Gloria, The Credo, the Sanctus, the Agnus Dei. To this day, I remember old Mr. G______ shouting in English the parts that we recited in Latin. Then the day finally came- Mr. G_______ lived to see the day when the Mass was in English.

 

[victrolatim]

I’m glad that in this day and age the extraordinary form of the Mass can be celebrated as an organic and living form of the liturgy. The folks that concern me (and I have met a few) are the ones with the mindset that because the mass is from 1962 that they must live their lives according to the same era and that anything the church did after that is either inferior or invalid.

 

[edwest2]

I’m glad that in this day and age the extraordinary form of the Mass can be celebrated as an organic and living form of the liturgy. The folks that concern me (and I have met a few) are the ones with the mindset that because the mass is from 1962 that they must live their lives according to the same era and that anything the church did after that is either inferior or invalid.

Where are these people? For me, nothing has changed since the end of Vatican II in my own life. Obedience to the Church was required.

Ed

 

[zab]

In fact, nothing could induce me to go back to that era. It was an awful time…for women. For minorities. In terms of class structure and of opportunities in life.

You know, Oneofthewomen, I find it revolting that a posters put on here about the nostalgia of a life they see through rose-coloured glasses.

Much better to talk to children living in the wake of decimation on the continent in the aftermath of the war in Europe…both East and West.

Or the children living in Africa as they lived through the throwing off of colonialism.

Or the children living in French Indochina.

Or the children in the United States who lived through segregation and the civil rights movement.

No one in those categories will be talking of nostalgia, if they have their right minds.

Speaking of the ecclesiastical side of the equation, I am very grateful…extremely grateful…for the liturgical movement which so blessed us and which laid the way for the reform and renewal of the liturgy. I could never give adequate thanks for Sacrosanctum Concilium.

I see what I lived through then and now as a progression forward. No. I would never want to go back to the way things were in that era.

The Council was the greatest event in my lifetime – and one of the greatest and transformative events in the entire history of the Church.

I do have some fond memories of attending Mass and devotions in my childhood. And after school, I and another girls assisted Sister as the sacristan. Even though I have fond memories, I would never want to go back to what it was back then. And I don’t know any my age that would want to go back either.

 

[Don_Ruggero]

My mother was born in 1912 in a very small Catholic farm community in Oregon. When I say small, her high school graduating class (Catholic school) was 5 students.

One day, out of curiosity, I asked her which she preferred - Latin or English in the Mass, and I hardly had the words out of my mouth when she exclaimed “Oh, in English! I can understand everything and don’t have to read while the priest is saying something!”

She was the one who bought all of us missals when we were old enough to use one, something that few of my classmates had.

People took to the Ordinary form like ducks to water. There have been statements made about how vast numbers of people left the Church or simply stopped attending Mass (and in particular, in this forum) but there are no valid studies - in fact no studies at all which I can find - which lend any support whatsoever to such claims. In fact, the stuies which exist, show that attendance peaked in the 1950’s at about 70% of baptized people attending regularly, and over the next 65 years +/- attendance dropped off at a rate of about 1% per year until leveling out near 25%.

Yes, this is a traditional forum, and yes, it is going to be populated largely by people who may prefer the EF (which really should be no surprise… ). And yes, there are people who would prefer the EF and have nowhere to attend one. It has been almost 10 years (this coming July 7) since Summorum Pontificum was promulgated, The current results are that less than 3% of parishes in the US have an EF Mass, and that includes everything from a parish having the EF both on every Sunday and during the week, to those which have one once a month; last I looked, there was one parish which appeared to have the EF once every 6 months.

The short of it is that those who prefer the EF are in a very small minority of the entire population of people who go to Mass. That is not a value judgement nor is it any commentary on the efficacy of either form of the Mass; it is simply the preferences of both groups, and one group is far larger than the other.

Reverence is as reverence does. Yes, there have been abuses in the OF, for failure to adhere to the rubrics. Having had 16 years of a priest who had problems (at least in part due to alcoholism) when I was a youth, I can attest that there were at times a profound lack of reverence in the EF in that parish. And I have been around long enough to know it was not totally isolated.

This is all very well said indeed.

I would add, relative to Summorum Pontificum, that Pope Benedict had no expectation that the vetus ordo was going to have any sort of large presence “because of the actual situation of the communities of the faithful” – the post-conciliar missal was what was preferred and would remain dominant…for which we thank God.

 

[otjm]

Where are these people? For me, nothing has changed since the end of Vatican II in my own life. Obedience to the Church was required.

Ed

My deacon has family in the Midwest. Some have gone over to the SSPX, and others have not gone over, but are sympathizers. He visits out of loyalty to the whole clan, but is far beyond trying to convince that part of the family that they view things incorrectly.

None of this is to say they are isolated to the Midwest. We have a small chapel in Portland which is SSPX, and I have come across others who are of the mindset that Vatican was at the minimum a mistake, and not to be followed.

You are blessed if you have not had to deal with these folks.

What is bemusing is that these folks are the strong proponents of obedience; but their view skews that obedience. Perhaps a comment attributed to Luther has relevance: “Every milkmaid a theologian…”

 

[AnnArbor]

In fact, nothing could induce me to go back to that era. It was an awful time…for women. For minorities. In terms of class structure and of opportunities in life.

You know, Oneofthewomen, I find it revolting that a posters put on here about the nostalgia of a life they see through rose-coloured glasses.

Much better to talk to children living in the wake of decimation on the continent in the aftermath of the war in Europe…both East and West.

Or the children living in Africa as they lived through the throwing off of colonialism.

Or the children living in French Indochina.

Or the children in the United States who lived through segregation and the civil rights movement.

No one in those categories will be talking of nostalgia, if they have their right minds.

Speaking of the ecclesiastical side of the equation, I am very grateful…extremely grateful…for the liturgical movement which so blessed us and which laid the way for the reform and renewal of the liturgy. I could never give adequate thanks for Sacrosanctum Concilium.

I see what I lived through then and now as a progression forward. No. I would never want to go back to the way things were in that era.

The Council was the greatest event in my lifetime – and one of the greatest and transformative events in the entire history of the Church.

Thank you, Father!

Also, as I commented on another thread that was deleted, thank you for your willingness to share your expertise, your wisdom and insights – and your unfailing politeness. I very much appreciate your posts.

 

[edwest2]

My deacon has family in the Midwest. Some have gone over to the SSPX, and others have not gone over, but are sympathizers. He visits out of loyalty to the whole clan, but is far beyond trying to convince that part of the family that they view things incorrectly.

None of this is to say they are isolated to the Midwest. We have a small chapel in Portland which is SSPX, and I have come across others who are of the mindset that Vatican was at the minimum a mistake, and not to be followed.

You are blessed if you have not had to deal with these folks.

What is bemusing is that these folks are the strong proponents of obedience; but their view skews that obedience. Perhaps a comment attributed to Luther has relevance: “Every milkmaid a theologian…”

I’d be curious to hear their reasoning (not those that have gone over to the SSPX), meaning those who consider this or that inferior. Any examples and reasons?

Ed

 

[JimG]

I like the OF Mass, now that it has finally been properly sorted out. The OF Mass as it is done in my parish is reverent and prayerful, not that much different than the Tridentine Mass that I recall. The EF Mass as celebrated on ordinary Sundays in my pre-Vatican II parish, however, often inspired me to heights of wonder and praise of which the OF is probably incapable.

It would have been a smoother and less painful transition for many had we gone directly from the Mass we had then to the Mass we have now. But that did not happen. We had to endure numerous bouts of silly songs, architechural disasters, liturgy tampering that changed from week to week, and terrible banal translations, to get to where we are now. I survived it, and I’m happy with the current OF Mass. I pity those who were elderly at the time of the transition and did not live long enough to see sanity return to the liturgy.

As for the matter of “participation,” I think it is not meaningful. Participation is intentional and interior. As a friend remarked to me once during the transition to the vernacular, “Hey, I can pretty much daydream the same whether the priest is speaking Latin or English.”

 

[Casilda]

I don’t recall any kids with missals back in the early 60s.

I still have mine. My mum saved it with the box and rosary.

 

[CountrySteve]

Why does it have to be EF or OF? Why not both?

 

[otjm]

I’d be curious to hear their reasoning (not those that have gone over to the SSPX), meaning those who consider this or that inferior. Any examples and reasons?

Ed

No, I don’t have quotes, as it has been a good bit of time since i crossed paths with some.

However, I can tell you what I observed. To a person, these people were not clear thinkers; another way of saying it is that they had no training in critical thinking. They use a tremendous amount of “post hoc, ergo propter hoc” illogic, blaming each and every activity/change/choice people have madE after Vatican 2 on the documents - documents which they either have not read, or have not understood. I could go on from there, but a simple way to sum it up is “Don’t confuse me with the facts, as I already have my mind made up”. They tend towards conspiracy thought patterns, and often have romanticized the past through the red lenses of time.