Tridentine Mass had many abuses also

[Rykell]

Just a quick clarification…

This thread was just resurrected from 2004, and we need to consider that the former posters may not be around.

 

[Ham1]

So, abuses in the Old Mass included:

1. Praying of the Rosary
2. Priest saying it too fast
3. No sacrilegious communions (it’s not accurate to say that “no one” went to Communion)
4. Too much reverence and silence (aka “not enough participation”)?

Abuses in the New Mass include:

1. Priests dressed as clowns
2. various other food items being used in place of a host
3. lay persons handling the Sacred Species
4. lay persons giving sermons
5. holding hands around the altar
6. no concept of being in a state of grace for Communion (everyone receives, whether they should or not)
7. songs with heretical lyrics
8. inclusive language
9. search the threads on Catholic Anwers for the rest, there are literally hundreds of different abuses that happen in the New Mass

Can we PLEASE have the Old Mass back?!

PLEASE keep in mind, the liturgy cannot abuse itself. Period. The celebrant must abuse it. Only a poorly formed priest would abuse Holy Mass. Where did he get such poor formation? In the seminaries of course! In the US, going back into the 40’s and 50’s. Thank God many seminaries have been vastly improved. But it will take some time before these ill-formed priests are no longer in positions of power.

So, repeat after me, “The Mass cannot abuse itself, The Mass cannot abuse itself.”

If we look around the world today, there is much laxity in society in general - in clothes, customs, the way we speak. Unfortunately, much of that has crept into our Mass. 50 years ago people would not wear jeans and t-shirts to Mass. Did the new Mass cause people to start wearing such clothing? Of course not. Societal standards of dress in and out of Church have changed drastically. The reason it has not crept into the indult Masses is because people there make a conscious effort to maintain a “traditional” level of dress.

 

[Aurelio]

Hi, everyone!

I think we nearly all know not only that the “Tridentine Mass had many abuses also,” but at the hands of totally unscrupulous persons can still have such abuses, and to an extreme, as even Pope St. Pius X himself seemed to have figured when he wrote his first encyclical on the music to be used in liturgies.

To see how bad things are at least in some places nowadays you don’t even need a hyperlink.

Just open up YAHOO! or GOOGLE and type in:

Fathers Gilbert and Sullivan DO the Latin Mass?

It’s being bounced all over the internet.

Note, too, how the vituperation in some of the replies comes right out of Ellis Sandoz’s book, The Voegelinian Revolution, where Voegelin comments (page 112-114?) that gnostics use personal vituperation in attacking anybody that disagrees with them, just as do the Marxists (page 27?).

I’ve been collecting specimens of these personal attacks from both over the years, and have often gotton a big laugh out off myself in comparing the two.

These fierce take-no-prisoners “peoples’ cyber-warriors” – while hiding behind their talismanic masks --are literally identical, even in their use of the word “whine!”

Aurelio:thumbsup:

 

[SnorterLuster]

If we look around the world today, there is much laxity in society in general - in clothes, customs, the way we speak. Unfortunately, much of that has crept into our Mass. 50 years ago people would not wear jeans and t-shirts to Mass. Did the new Mass cause people to start wearing such clothing? Of course not. Societal standards of dress in and out of Church have changed drastically. The reason it has not crept into the indult Masses is because people there make a conscious effort to maintain a “traditional” level of dress.

I see people excusing all kinds of things because our society has become so coarse. I certainly agree that society is not conducive to our own spiritual life or to raise our children. My question is though, shouldn’t the Church stand outside of society? How did it creep into the Mass without the knowledge or encouragement of our priests and bishops? And the other side of the coin, shouldn’t the Pope and Curia put a quick end to the shenanigans?

I once had a pastor that would tell people leaving early to “Sit Down” the Mass isn’t over. Father expected decorum and respect and he got it. If a young lady was dressed immodestly, he would tell her from the pulpit to go home and get dressed, come back at the next Mass.

So let’s put the blame where it belongs, on us and on our Church leaders who apparently gave in to society instead of fighting for the truth.

 

[Malcolm_McLean]

Are you saying this is what is expected in the current TLM? To privately engage in one’s personal devotion while mass is being celebrated? And you only need to be physically present in the pew to fulfill your obligation to “worship God”?

Yes. 90% of life is showing up.

 

[UKcatholicGuy]

Fathers Gilbert and Sullivan DO the Latin Mass?

It’s being bounced all over the internet.

I searched it and cannot for the life of me figure out what it is. What is “Fathers Gilbert and Sullivan DO the Latin Mass”? How is it connected with the SSPX. I’m thoroughly confused.

 

[Crusade_Guy]

Never heard of that one…

traditioninaction.org/RevolutionPhotos/Images/076_CommunionBareBrested03.jpg

traditioninaction.org/RevolutionPhotos/Images/027_OffertoryGifts.jpg

traditioninaction.org/RevolutionPhotos/Images/018_BarebrstReads%20Gospel.jpg

 

[brotherhrolf]

I searched it and cannot for the life of me figure out what it is. What is “Fathers Gilbert and Sullivan DO the Latin Mass”? How is it connected with the SSPX. I’m thoroughly confused.

Gilbert and Sullivan were 19th century English composers of Victorian era quasi-operatic musicals - e.g. Pirates of Penzance. I believe what the OP was trying to compare is that Gilbert and Sullivan wrote operettas.

The poster has a point. Not three years ago, I went to Mass at a geographical local parish instead of the cathedral parish in which we are members. I litterally cringed when I heard the Offertory…from Godspell - Day by Day.

I’m telling you that in four short years - 1965 through 1969 we went from

All sorts of Latin, all sorts of hymns that have meaning to …muppet music
saintmina-holmdel.org/Songs/songtext.php?title=Holy+Communion%3A+Sons+Of+God

Which is now so PC incorrect it’s not funny. Explain that boys and girls.

 

[Brennan_Doherty]

I personally think this issue is other than the relative abuses. Novus Ordo Masses celebrated correctly will still have the same altered (or eliminated) prayers, the priest facing the people, etc. In other words, one will still experience the same horizontalism with the Novus Ordo whether it is abused or not.

 

[Andreas_Hofer]

Here are the abuses of the Old Mass I have heard of:
-six candles lit for a low Mass
-for Commmunion the priest says “Corpus Domini Iesu Christi custodiat animam tuam in vitam aeternam. Amen” with a big sign of the cross to 3 people then giving them communion seperately.

I do happen to think the myriad options of the Novus Ordo lend themselves to abusive attitudes, but part of our modern fantasy that the TLM was harder to abuse is that we just can’t imagine doing some of the things that went on. The acts of Trent list all sorts of abuses. Some are fairly tame, like making signs of the cross so quickly and sloppily the priest appeared to be swatting flies. Others were rather disrespectful to the Eucharistic species, such as the priest setting the host on his head for a long period of time so he could extend the elevation without making his arms tired.

Catholicguy,

Abuses in the “old Mass”? Of course there were abuses. The Council of Trent listed abuses present at the time of the it ordered the Mass to be reformed. Following the Council of Trent there were no magisterial documents addressing abuses directly – that was generall handled between the priest and his bishop, although certain of those abuses were noted by Pope Paul VI when he wrote of the abuse of praying the rosary (a private devotion) during the Mass (a communal celebrfation).

I think this particular example, Fr. Deacon, actually shows not so much an abuse in the old rite so much as the new liturgical mindset promoted by Pope Paul VI and his new liturgy. Praying the rosary was, after all, not an abuse when Pope Pius XII recommended it to congregants as a low-level yet real form of participation in the Mass.

 

[eliasaph99]

So, abuses in the Old Mass included:

1. Praying of the Rosary
2. Priest saying it too fast
3. No sacrilegious communions (it’s not accurate to say that “no one” went to Communion)
4. Too much reverence and silence (aka “not enough participation”)?

Abuses in the New Mass include:

1. Priests dressed as clowns
2. various other food items being used in place of a host
3. lay persons handling the Sacred Species
4. lay persons giving sermons
5. holding hands around the altar
6. no concept of being in a state of grace for Communion (everyone receives, whether they should or not)
7. songs with heretical lyrics
8. inclusive language
9. search the threads on Catholic Anwers for the rest, there are literally hundreds of different abuses that happen in the New Mass

Can we PLEASE have the Old Mass back?!

For me, there is no old Mass. I was born in 1973, and the only Mass I have ever attended has been the NO Mass.

I don’t want the Tridentine Mass back. I don’t see any reason to have to listen to Latin when English will do just fine.

I am disturbed when I attend Mass and see things which are not in accord with the liturgical rubrics, but I don’t see any reason at all to throw out the current order of the Mass. Abuse can and will happen anywhere.

If you think some particular practice is inappropriate and not in line with Church teaching, then get your documentation in order and point it out to the Priest or the Pastor. If they don’t listen, go the Bishop, and so on.

Most of all, focus on Christ. The Eucharist is still consecrated and the sacrifice is made. Some parishes have a poor understanding of this, but this was the same under the old Mass. My mother-in-law grew up in Portugal going to the Tridentine Rite. She has a very poor understanding of the Faith. She has prayers committed to memory which she’ll never forget, but has no idea what the words mean. She just recited them for 40 years. Many people may have had understanding, but just as many didn’t. If the prayers are in the vernacular, you don’t have this problem.

In the US, the old Churches may have had missals in Latin and English, but in rural Portugal, and in most of the rest of the world, they had nothing. Many of the Churches there still don’t have pews in them. When you go, you stand. I’d love to see you guys who think you’re so old fashioned and guarding the old ways try to complain about a lack of kneelers there!

In summary, do the NO Mass by the book and it’s beautiful. I grew up with it and many of my most profound memories are at Mass. I served as an altar boy and have a lot of great memories from that. My First Holy Communion was fantastic. My confirmation Mass was amazing. I could feel the Holy Spirit enter me like a warm fluid. I looked forward to Father Tubirdy’s homily every Sunday. I wouldn’t want the Mass any other way.

But if the Church changed it, I’d accept it.

 

[Malcolm_McLean]

I personally think this issue is other than the relative abuses. Novus Ordo Masses celebrated correctly will still have the same altered (or eliminated) prayers, the priest facing the people, etc. In other words, one will still experience the same horizontalism with the Novus Ordo whether it is abused or not.

I see it a bit like the problem of producing serious TV programs.
A TV screen is small, so you have to be very slick, dramatic, and simple in order to keep the auduence’s attention. So if you are producing a serious program you have to fight the medium. The temptation is always there to put on some sort of junky investigation of homeopathy because that is what is accessible to your viewers, rather than actually describe real drugs that worked or didn’t work for complex biochemical reasons.

However it is not impossible to put on real serious TV. Nor is it impossible to offer NO reverently. The symbolism of the priest facing the people is different, for instance, but it is not wrong, as long as that priest is genuinely a deeply committed pastor and a learned man who can instruct the flock. If he is a lazy priest, the concept of the priest as the front man in the congregation facing God is more honest.

 

[st_julie]

Reading Eamon Duffys’ Stripping of the Altars, The praying of the rosary during mass was the norm. The “Sacring” is when everyone looked up at the Host. Communion was twice a year.
st julie

 

[brotherhrolf]

Sorry to disagree with you but from the time I made my first communion in 1957 and got my little St. Joseph Missal, my mother was there pointing out the Latin word for word and showing me how to use the Missal. The only, ONLY, folks I ever saw saying the rosary during Mass were old women.

Communion twice a year? Guess again, certainly not in Catholic south Louisiana. Anybody can write anything they want. I know what I saw with my own two eyes.

Eamon Duffy is English and he wrote about Catholic England during the Middle Ages and before Henry VIII. I just went to Amazon and found the book. It has absolutely nothing to do with the Mass I grew up with or what I saw with my own eyes.

This is, in my humble opinion, intellectual dishonesty. You can’t compare the practices of 16th Century England to the Mass which was instituted long after England went apostate. The TLM that I grew up with was not developed until the late 1500s and has nothing to do with the practices which went before. What? Should we revive the medieval tradition of dragging an *** into church after Christmas and singing Hail, Sir ***, Hail? That was done too and has no bearing upon the TLM.

I didn’t realize we had a filter on CAF. The three syllable word which has been censored is indeed the title of several Middle English works regarding the common donkey. Let’s see if Orientis Partibus gets censored in Latin:

Orientis partibus adventavit asinus …Hez, Sir Asnes, hez!

Think I’m making this up? Listen to track 14

amazon.com/Medieval-Christmas-Catalonian/dp/B000005IVR/sr=1-11/qid=1170636413/ref=sr_1_11/104-5678495-3447124?ie=UTF8&s=music

Does this mean that we should drag a donkey through church today?

 

[AJV]

Sorry to disagree with you but from the time I made my first communion in 1957 and got my little St. Joseph Missal, my mother was there pointing out the Latin word for word and showing me how to use the Missal. The only, ONLY, folks I ever saw saying the rosary during Mass were old women.

Communion twice a year? Guess again, certainly not in Catholic south Louisiana. Anybody can write anything they want. I know what I saw with my own two eyes.

Eamon Duffy is English and he wrote about Catholic England during the Middle Ages and before Henry VIII. I just went to Amazon and found the book. It has absolutely nothing to do with the Mass I grew up with or what I saw with my own eyes.

This is, in my humble opinion, intellectual dishonesty. You can’t compare the practices of 16th Century England to the Mass which was instituted long after England went apostate. The TLM that I grew up with was not developed until the late 1500s and has nothing to do with the practices which went before. What? Should we revive the medieval tradition of dragging an *** into church after Christmas and singing Hail, Sir ***, Hail? That was done too and has no bearing upon the TLM.

I didn’t realize we had a filter on CAF. The three syllable word which has been censored is indeed the title of several Middle English works regarding the common donkey. Let’s see if Orientis Partibus gets censored in Latin:

Orientis partibus adventavit asinus …Hez, Sir Asnes, hez!

Think I’m making this up? Listen to track 14

amazon.com/Medieval-Christmas-Catalonian/dp/B000005IVR/sr=1-11/qid=1170636413/ref=sr_1_11/104-5678495-3447124?ie=UTF8&s=music

Does this mean that we should drag a donkey through church today?

Well,yes, brotherhrolf but definitely in parts of the USA by the 1950’s there was the effect of the Liturgical Movement. Frequent communion (after St. Pius X) and all, and more in some parts than others. Another example would be communion during the Mass rathr than before or after. I have a few prints of Westminister Cathedral ar the turn of the last century showing Holy Communon distributed in the blessed Sacrament chapel after Mass. Could dig them up and post them if you wish. I believe that in certain parts of Italy this remained the norm until the 1960’s.

In a way it is somewhat ironic that just as the Liturgical Movement was reaching is full ‘potential’ (can’t think of how to say that) it was taken away. Along with practises have have greater “pastoral advantage” in the TLM rather thna the NO. e.g. Versus populum is of great advantage in the TLM, because of the many gestures and signs of the cross that the priest makes which all become visible to the faithful and MAY serve to increase devotion. But our current practise is priest toward the people and minimal manual gestures.Even more ironic would be that the Traditional movement today incorporates a lot of practises sanctioned and advocated by the Liturgical movment.

But in a way, yes Trent does have a bearing on the Mass. Because some of these continued afterward. Moreover, in most of the Ordinary the Sarum, York, Bangor, etc. are similar differing usually in the Offertory, the Oramus Tem and certain rites after the Pater. Now I think it would indeed be intellectual dishonesty to compare 16th century England and claim that that is a good reason to have the changes of 1970. But otherwise they do indeed show the Mass CAN be abused and was abused. Thoguh again, it would be intellectual dishonesty to point to these and speak of 1970 when they had all died out.

That donkey dragging into church is a perfect example. Just as is those blasphemous Mass of Drunkards,Mass of Fools, Gamblers, Mass of Innocents, and so forth. Like a freaky medaevel clown Mass. I see someone has put some of the texts up here, but only a measely selection. Perhaps I should type out the rest.

Confiteor Dolio, regi Baccho et omnibus schyphis eius a nobis acceptis, quia ego potator potavi nimis in stando, sedendo, videndo, vigilando, ludendo, et ad schyphum inclinando, vestimentaque mea perdendo: mea crapula, mea crapula, mea maxima crapula. Ideo precor vos, solemnes potatores et manducatores, devote orare pro me.
Misereatur vestri ventripotens Bacchus.
Et permittat te perdere omnia vestimenta et sensum liberetque te ab oculis et dentibus tuis, et perducat te ad plenam tabernam.
Adiutorium nostrum in nomine Dolii et Bacchi.
Qui fecit scyphum et tabernam.

Who says Latin can’t be abused?

 

[AJV]

Sorry to disagree with you but from the time I made my first communion in 1957 and got my little St. Joseph Missal, my mother was there pointing out the Latin word for word and showing me how to use the Missal. The only, ONLY, folks I ever saw saying the rosary during Mass were old women.

Communion twice a year? Guess again, certainly not in Catholic south Louisiana. Anybody can write anything they want. I know what I saw with my own two eyes.

Eamon Duffy is English and he wrote about Catholic England during the Middle Ages and before Henry VIII. I just went to Amazon and found the book. It has absolutely nothing to do with the Mass I grew up with or what I saw with my own eyes.

This is, in my humble opinion, intellectual dishonesty. You can’t compare the practices of 16th Century England to the Mass which was instituted long after England went apostate. The TLM that I grew up with was not developed until the late 1500s and has nothing to do with the practices which went before. What? Should we revive the medieval tradition of dragging an *** into church after Christmas and singing Hail, Sir ***, Hail? That was done too and has no bearing upon the TLM.

I didn’t realize we had a filter on CAF. The three syllable word which has been censored is indeed the title of several Middle English works regarding the common donkey. Let’s see if Orientis Partibus gets censored in Latin:

Orientis partibus adventavit asinus …Hez, Sir Asnes, hez!

Think I’m making this up? Listen to track 14

amazon.com/Medieval-Christmas-Catalonian/dp/B000005IVR/sr=1-11/qid=1170636413/ref=sr_1_11/104-5678495-3447124?ie=UTF8&s=music

Does this mean that we should drag a donkey through church today?

Well,yes, brotherhrolf but definitely in parts of the USA by the 1950’s there was the effect of the Liturgical Movement. Frequent communion (after St. Pius X) and all, and more in some parts than others. Another example would be communion during the Mass rathr than before or after. I have a few prints of Westminister Cathedral ar the turn of the last century showing Holy Communon distributed in the blessed Sacrament chapel after Mass. Could dig them up and post them if you wish. I believe that in certain parts of Italy this remained the norm until the 1960’s.

In a way it is somewhat ironic that just as the Liturgical Movement was reaching is full ‘potential’ (can’t think of how to say that) it was taken away. Along with practises have have greater “pastoral advantage” in the TLM rather thna the NO. e.g. Versus populum is of great advantage in the TLM, because of the many gestures and signs of the cross that the priest makes which all become visible to the faithful and MAY serve to increase devotion. But our current practise is priest toward the people and minimal manual gestures.Even more ironic would be that the Traditional movement today incorporates a lot of practises sanctioned and advocated by the Liturgical movment.

But in a way, yes Trent does have a bearing on the Mass. Because some of these continued afterward. Moreover, in most of the Ordinary the Sarum, York, Bangor, etc. are similar differing usually in the Offertory, the Oramus Te and certain rites after the Pater. Now I think it would indeed be intellectual dishonesty to compare 16th century England and claim that that is a good reason to have the changes of 1970. But otherwise they do indeed show the Mass CAN be abused and was abused. Though again, it would be intellectual dishonesty to point to these and speak of 1970 when they had all died out.

That donkey dragging into church is a perfect example. Just as is those blasphemous Mass of Drunkards,Mass of Fools, Gamblers, Mass of Innocents, and so forth. Like a freaky mediaevel clown Mass. I see someone has put some of the texts up here, but only a tiny selection. Perhaps I should type out the rest.

Confiteor Dolio, regi Baccho et omnibus schyphis eius a nobis acceptis, quia ego potator potavi nimis in stando, sedendo, videndo, vigilando, ludendo, et ad schyphum inclinando, vestimentaque mea perdendo: mea crapula, mea crapula, mea maxima crapula. Ideo precor vos, solemnes potatores et manducatores, devote orare pro me.
Misereatur vestri ventripotens Bacchus.
Et permittat te perdere omnia vestimenta et sensum liberetque te ab oculis et dentibus tuis, et perducat te ad plenam tabernam.

Who says Latin can’t be abused? Though not in our modern age.

 

[LilyM]

Well,yes, brotherhrolf but definitely in parts of the USA by the 1950’s there was the effect of the Liturgical Movement. Frequent communion (after St. Pius X) and all, and more in some parts than others. Another example would be communion during the Mass rathr than before or after. I have a few prints of Westminister Cathedral ar the turn of the last century showing Holy Communon distributed in the blessed Sacrament chapel after Mass. Could dig them up and post them if you wish. I believe that in certain parts of Italy this remained the norm until the 1960’s.

In a way it is somewhat ironic that just as the Liturgical Movement was reaching is full ‘potential’ (can’t think of how to say that) it was taken away. Along with practises have have greater “pastoral advantage” in the TLM rather thna the NO. e.g. Versus populum is of great advantage in the TLM, because of the many gestures and signs of the cross that the priest makes which all become visible to the faithful and MAY serve to increase devotion. But our current practise is priest toward the people and minimal manual gestures.Even more ironic would be that the Traditional movement today incorporates a lot of practises sanctioned and advocated by the Liturgical movment.

But in a way, yes Trent does have a bearing on the Mass. Because some of these continued afterward. Moreover, in most of the Ordinary the Sarum, York, Bangor, etc. are similar differing usually in the Offertory, the Oramus Te and certain rites after the Pater. Now I think it would indeed be intellectual dishonesty to compare 16th century England and claim that that is a good reason to have the changes of 1970. But otherwise they do indeed show the Mass CAN be abused and was abused. Though again, it would be intellectual dishonesty to point to these and speak of 1970 when they had all died out.

That donkey dragging into church is a perfect example. Just as is those blasphemous Mass of Drunkards,Mass of Fools, Gamblers, Mass of Innocents, and so forth. Like a freaky mediaevel clown Mass. I see someone has put some of the texts up here, but only a tiny selection. Perhaps I should type out the rest.

Who says Latin can’t be abused? Though not in our modern age.

The Latin itself is perfectly valid - it’s the MASS that was being abused :bigyikes:

 

[brotherhrolf]

Peter, where are you coming up with this? It’s news to me. I only knew what I experienced as a child. I went to Catholic grade school starting in the late 1950s. I was taught by the Religious Sisters of Mary, a predominately Irish order, in grade school and the Brothers of the Sacred Heart, a predominately French order, from eighth grade through 12 th.

I have a very vague understanding that Catholicism wasn’t exactly the same as when my mother was younger. She talked about fasts for 12 hours before receiving Communion as oppossed to my three. She said she weighed her food during Lent in addition to abstaining from meat.

I always received Communion during Mass. I was an altar boy from the summer of 1960 at the end of the third grade until 1968 when I was a junior in high school.

This “liturgical movement” of which you speak was never discussed in either my grade school or high school. I am totally unaware of it.

Besides the switch to the Mass in English, the biggest change I can recall is that in my junior year in high school we began an actual scripture study in Religion class rather than rote memorization of the Baltimore catechism and applying it to our lives.

My folks never said anything to me about a liturgical movement before I was born. Nor did any sister or brother that taught me. This is uncharted territory.

 

[st_julie]

Regarding Eamon Duffy…I was trying to respond about pius xii recomendation of saying the rosary during mass. I was trying to say that it was a common custon pre-trent

 

[weepixie71]

the tridentine mass did NOT have abuses. the priests, bishops, cardinals, etc. abused the mass. the tridentine mass does not have the words of the consecration changed like the novus ordo mass does.