Tridentine Mass had many abuses also

[Roamin_Xian]

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That’s the traditional “garb” of that particular people. No different than women in Eastern Europe with bright multicolored dresses.

 

[Genesis315]

Someone mentioned the supreme magisterium not addressing liturgical abuse until Trent–this is not the case. Innocent III addressed priests feigning the consecration (thus not consecrating at all) back in the 13th century. The 14th century seemed to be a lowpoint though–just read Sts. Catherine of Siena and Bridget of Sweden. In fact, I just read something by St. Bridget where she mentions the Eucharist being spat out, dropped on the ground, inadvertantly walked on, etc.

St. Catherine mentions certain priests being ordained who didn’t even know Latin or say Mass, and they would just rattle off gibberish! Yikes!

Anyway, the point is not to say that abuses are ok or to be taken lightly, but rather that they are nothing exclusive to the ordinary form of the Roman rite.

 

[weepixie71]

as i have posted on this matter before. the tridentine mass is not an abuse nor will it in God’s eyes ever be an abuse. the way priests,bishop, cardinals, etc. performed the mass was an abuse. the fault to a degree falls also on catholics who attended the mass and did not call their clergy men on it.

to me its like saying guns kill people. no guns dont kill people, people kill people.

however, the novus ordo mass, in my opinion is an abuse because they changed the words of the consecration. no matter how holy or reverent the priest tries to be saying this mass, their is no denying the word change from many to all. this doesnt even come close to the same meaning. and most importantly the word change was never needed to be changed.

 

[LeroyCRHP]

I still think we are playing the fiddle while Rome is burning down literally.

It is about point of reference and to me it is the last supper with Jesus.

Should communion be as close to the last supper with Jesus? The words are the same. Did Jesus face away from his disciples? Did Jesus place the host in each disciples mouth? Did the disciples kneel? Did Jesus only offer the host and no wine to his disciples? Did Jesus speak Latin to his disciples? Did Jesus hold his fingers in some special way? Did Jesus light 6 or 7 candles? Was Jesus at a table or altar? Where were the Gregorian chants? Did Jesus have someone holding his gown? Did Jesus have someone singing and playing guitar and congo drums? Did Jesus read from OT, NT and then a gospel? Did Jesus say intentions? I believe he did give a homily

My point is that we should really think WWJD (maybe it’s What Did Jesus Do WDJD). Other than the consecration of the bread and wine, almost everything in both masses have been created.

The Lord’s Supper

14When the hour had come, He reclined at the table, and the apostles with Him.

15And He said to them, “I have earnestly desired to eat this Passover with you before I suffer;
16for I say to you, I shall never again eat it until it is fulfilled in the kingdom of God.”
17And when He had taken a cup and given thanks, He said, “Take this and share it among yourselves;
18for I say to you, I will not drink of the fruit of the vine from now on until the kingdom of God comes.”
19And when He had taken some bread and given thanks, He broke it and gave it to them, saying, “This is My body which is given for you; do this in remembrance of Me.” 20And in the same way He took the cup after they had eaten, saying, "This cup which is poured out for you is the new covenant in My blood.

 

[RobbyS]

Regarding Eamon Duffy…I was trying to respond about pius xii recomendation of saying the rosary during mass. I was trying to say that it was a common custon pre-trent

My little mission church in East Texas always ued the Missal. The only place I say people saying the rosary during mass was in the Rio Grande Valley in a Mexican church. I found it disconcerting.

 

[RobbyS]

I still think we are playing the fiddle while Rome is burning down literally.

It is about point of reference and to me it is the last supper with Jesus.

Should communion be as close to the last supper with Jesus? The words are the same. Did Jesus face away from his disciples? Did Jesus place the host in each disciples mouth? Did the disciples kneel? Did Jesus only offer the host and no wine to his disciples? Did Jesus speak Latin to his disciples? Did Jesus hold his fingers in some special way? Did Jesus light 6 or 7 candles? Was Jesus at a table or altar? Where were the Gregorian chants? Did Jesus have someone holding his gown? Did Jesus have someone singing and playing guitar and congo drums? Did Jesus read from OT, NT and then a gospel? Did Jesus say intentions? I believe he did give a homily

My point is that we should really think WWJD (maybe it’s What Did Jesus Do WDJD). Other than the consecration of the bread and wine, almost everything in both masses have been created.

The Lord’s Supper

14When the hour had come, He reclined at the table, and the apostles with Him.

15And He said to them, “I have earnestly desired to eat this Passover with you before I suffer;
16for I say to you, I shall never again eat it until it is fulfilled in the kingdom of God.”
17And when He had taken a cup and given thanks, He said, “Take this and share it among yourselves;
18for I say to you, I will not drink of the fruit of the vine from now on until the kingdom of God comes.”
19And when He had taken some bread and given thanks, He broke it and gave it to them, saying, “This is My body which is given for you; do this in remembrance of Me.” 20And in the same way He took the cup after they had eaten, saying, "This cup which is poured out for you is the new covenant in My blood.

My onjection is, I think, the same as the popes. Yes, the order of mass was a historical development. But the new mass “edits” it to the extent that, said in the vernacular, it seems like a break with tradition. Thus so many priests felt free to add their personal twist, and became “stars” rather than disappearing in the role as they could do when their backs were turned to the congregation.

 

[weepixie71]

LeroyCRHP

I’m confused by your statement. no Jesus did not have his back turned. no teacher does when they are teaching students who, what, and why. of course they did not kneel to take the host, it was not a complete consecration. Jesus wasn’t dead yet. Jesus was showing them what to do after His death and resurrection so they and others for 1000’s of years to come could still receive Him. If you truly believe you are standing before Christ wouldn’t you at the very least kneel before Him. and the tridentine mass does say this is the body this is my blood, its just said in ecclesiastical latin.

 

[LeroyCRHP]

Weepixie71;

My point is the mass has mostly developed over time, always changing and improving. The consecration of bread and wine and passing around for all has always been the very core of the mass.

For me when the Priest has his back turned during the TLM seems unusual after years of the NO. It makes sense with the altar in the back, but I’m used to the table in front.

I had not heard that it was not a complete consecration? I don’t see much from Google?

I agree, Jesus deserves all the honor I can show.

This discussion is great to learn about our faith, but I think instead of worrying about too many details (which the Priests, Bishops, and Pope will take care of) we should be helping others and bringing converts to our great church. I don’t like that our church has been split between TLM and NO. Even the tone between the TLM folks and NO folks is a little confrontational for me. I’m really not very confrontational and hope our Bishops and Pope unify the mass soon. To say again I don’t like the I’m better than you and you have more abuses in your mass discussions.

LeroyCRHP

I’m confused by your statement. no Jesus did not have his back turned. no teacher does when they are teaching students who, what, and why. of course they did not kneel to take the host, it was not a complete consecration. Jesus wasn’t dead yet. Jesus was showing them what to do after His death and resurrection so they and others for 1000’s of years to come could still receive Him. If you truly believe you are standing before Christ wouldn’t you at the very least kneel before Him. and the tridentine mass does say this is the body this is my blood, its just said in ecclesiastical latin.

 

[Matariel]

however, the novus ordo mass, in my opinion is an abuse because they changed the words of the consecration. no matter how holy or reverent the priest tries to be saying this mass, their is no denying the word change from many to all.

Haven’t you heard? The Pope stated that the English translation was wrong, and the new translation is coming out in 2009 - 2010 (?) and the words are a true translation, “many”, instead of “all”. Also, the Creed will be said as “I believe” not “We believe”, and the response to “The Lord be with you” will be “And with your spirit” not “And also with you”.

 

[LilyM]

Haven’t you heard? The Pope stated that the English translation was wrong, and the new translation is coming out in 2009 - 2010 (?) and the words are a true translation, “many”, instead of “all”. Also, the Creed will be said as “I believe” not “We believe”, and the response to “The Lord be with you” will be “And with your spirit” not “And also with you”.

It may need pointing out that it is emphatically NOT “wrong” in the sense of rendering the Consecration or the Mass either illicit or invalid. Thus is does not constitute any sort of abuse. His Holiness was careful to make that much clear.

Certainly it’s not the best or most accurate translation (doesn’t make it ‘untrue’, though, or not in any sense that matters to the validity or liceity of the NO or constitutes an abuse). But then neither are the translations of many of the other prayers. Hence the reversion to their old forms.

 

[Matariel]

It may need pointing out that it is emphatically NOT “wrong” in the sense of rendering the Consecration or the Mass either illicit or invalid. Thus is does not constitute any sort of abuse. His Holiness was careful to make that much clear.

Certainly it’s not the best or most accurate translation (doesn’t make it ‘untrue’, though, or not in any sense that matters to the validity or liceity of the NO or constitutes an abuse). But then neither are the translations of many of the other prayers. Hence the reversion to their old forms.

I know, I know. My point was she was making a big deal about the NO Mass, when the “error” she pointed out was a sloppy translation, not an actual abuse in the actual Mass.

 

[LilyM]

I know, I know. My point was she was making a big deal about the NO Mass, when the “error” she pointed out was a sloppy translation, not an actual abuse in the actual Mass.

True - use of a less-than-ideal translation doesn’t constitute error.

 

[ProVobis]

“Should communion be as close to the last supper with Jesus? The words are the same. Did Jesus face away from his disciples? Did Jesus place the host in each disciples mouth? Did the disciples kneel? Did Jesus only offer the host and no wine to his disciples? Did Jesus speak Latin to his disciples? Did Jesus hold his fingers in some special way? Did Jesus light 6 or 7 candles? Was Jesus at a table or altar? Where were the Gregorian chants? Did Jesus have someone holding his gown? Did Jesus have someone singing and playing guitar and congo drums? Did Jesus read from OT, NT and then a gospel? Did Jesus say intentions? I believe he did give a homily”

And did Jesus tell everyone they must attend a poorly celebrated, disorganized, and noisy Mass every week once He was gone? Or squander donations and tear down communion rails and high altars just to prove all the points you listed?

Jesus gave plenty of homilies but I believe He called them parables. And did He have everyone stand while He talked? But I digress.

I don’t believe Jesus was Latin-illiterate as you make it sound either.

 

[Matariel]

Jesus also was born in a dank stable, and was worshipped by the Magi there.

Does that mean we should convert all our churches into stables and place the host in a hay-filled manger?

Of course not!

We should honour Him with gold, incense, candles, and the best we can afford. Only the best for a King.

In other words-- not guitars and bongos, no adlibbing, and no clowns or Barneys at Mass. Period.

 

[Timothysis]

And did Jesus tell everyone they must attend a poorly celebrated, disorganized, and noisy Mass every week once He was gone? Or squander donations and tear down communion rails and high altars just to prove all the points you listed?

Actually, the gospels never tell us that Jesus said to attend “Mass every week once He was gone,” nor did he ever say anything about donations , communion rails and high altars.

 

[Timothysis]

In other words-- not guitars and bongos, no adlibbing, and no clowns or Barneys at Mass. Period.

Oh come on, how about getting some new material; I am so sick of hearing about “clown Masses…”

 

[Matariel]

Actually, the gospels never tell us that Jesus said to attend “Mass every week once He was gone,” nor did he ever say anything about donations , communion rails and high altars.

Yes, but the Church He gave authority in matters of worship, faith and morals did.

It’s authoritative, bud.

 

[Matariel]

…I am so sick of hearing about “clown Masses…”

Believe me, I am too.

 

[LilyM]

Yes, but the Church He gave authority in matters of worship, faith and morals did.

It’s authoritative, bud.

And THEY have said that communion rails and high altars aren’t necessary.

 

[ProVobis]

Haven’t you heard? The Pope stated that the English translation was wrong, and the new translation is coming out in 2009 - 2010 (?) and the words are a true translation, “many”, instead of “all”. Also, the Creed will be said as “I believe” not “We believe”, and the response to “The Lord be with you” will be “And with your spirit” not “And also with you”.

A Melius Novus Ordo?