Tridentine Mass had many abuses also

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"Yes, but the Church He gave authority in matters of worship, faith and morals did. 👍

It’s authoritative, bud."

Sure, like tolerating, and in some cases allowing, all the priestly abuses. But they can’t do any wrong, right?
 
LilyM said:
And THEY have said that communion rails and high altars aren’t necessary. 🤷
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Documentative citation, please. :whistle:

Besides, you missed the point. My point is, at one time that was the norm, there was no reason to go crazy with it, tearing out statues, etc. 🙂
 
ProVobis said:
Whether you’re sick or not, they do exist. And people still love them.
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Remember, ‘attend’ doesn’t even mean ‘like’, let alone ‘love’.

For 90% of attendees I’m sure it’s ‘tolerate because they either can’t go to another parish, are too ignorant to know that they can complain, or have tried to complain to no avail’.
 
LilyM said:
Remember, ‘attend’ doesn’t even mean ‘like’, let alone ‘love’.

For 90% of attendees I’m sure it’s ‘tolerate because they either can’t go to another parish, are too ignorant to know that they can complain, or have tried to complain to no avail’.
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Probably right. On the other hand, there are some Catholics who’re okay with it. :tsktsk:
 
ProVobis said:
Whether you’re sick or not, they do exist. And people still love them.
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I’ve been going to Mass for nearly 40 years and have never seen one. In fact, the only time I’ve even heard of them is on here from, now get this, those who criticize the current Ordinary Form of the Mass.
 
Matariel said:
Yes, but the Church He gave authority in matters of worship, faith and morals did. 👍

It’s authoritative, bud.
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The point is, bud, that Christ Himself never instituted the latin Mass. To the the Church he gave authority but as LilyM pointed out, the Church has not said that those particular things are necessary for the celebration of Mass.
 
Timothysis said:
I’ve been going to Mass for nearly 40 years and have never seen one. In fact, the only time I’ve even heard of them is on here from, now get this, those who criticize the current Ordinary Form of the Mass.
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I don’t criticize it at all. I like it a lot, it’s what I attend.

But I still criticize abuses thereof. It sounds like you don’t know that there are abuses.

For instance, at my parish they were using glass (forbidden because it is breakable and pourous) as a chalice, until I kindly reminded the nun, who told the priest.

And guess what? The old beautiful silver (gold inlaid inside) chalice was soon used again. 👍
 
Timothysis said:
I’ve been going to Mass for nearly 40 years and have never seen one.
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Oh, you probably have. You don’t have to be dressed in clown outfits to have a “Clown” or “Circus” Mass as many call them.
 
Marie said:
Mangled liturgy did not start with Vatican II. I was born into the Church long before Vatican II. I had the good fortune for the first several years of my life to attend the Eucharist in a parish where the old liturgy was performed with great care. Our school and the Nun’s who taught us were first rate. But, abuses were there in the fringes every now and then. As I grew up and married and moved I soon discovered that this was exceptional indeed. Many larger parishes were going down the trail of liturgical destruction. Daily Mass was usually a requiem “black Mass” and there was no choir, only an organist, who played the same music over and over with no care to the choice or liturgy proper to it’s selection. Scrambled Latin became the norm. The celebrants read everything to themselves, at high speed warp.

The laity, were scattered through the church reciting their Rosaries or napping, or knitting or day dreaming.Ushers at Mass…Oh they listened to see when a bell sounded to return from the smoke breaks and chat session they were involved in. That was NOT participation by any means. It was not uncommon, because of the fast from midnight before Holy Communion, that no one received Communion at the Solemn High Mass on Sunday. They obeyed in their fashion. They did not fast so they did not receive. They also did not understand The Eucharist obviously. A fast was too much to ask to their mind I guess, in order to receive the greatest gift of the church. Christ.

I mention these facts, not to mock the past nor the beauty of the Tridentine Mass. I mention them to point out that while a beautiful and reverent liturgy is a help to prayer, the Eucharist is not primarily an aesthetic experience but an act of faith. Shabbiness is not exclusive to the New Order of the Mass. It was alive and well long before Vatican II. Human ignorance, neglect, and folly throughout history have obscured the beauty of the liturgy. Catholics, priests and laity alike, need to make a serious effort to understand the purposes of the reforms promulgated by Vatican II, but already begun with the reform of the Breviary, of liturgical music, and frequent communion by St. Pius X and Pius XII’s recentering of the liturgical year in the Easter Vigil. Both conservatives and liberals in the Church are often poorly acquainted with the purpose of the Council and the profoundly orthodox faith which inspired its renewal of the liturgy.
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Since someone ressurected this almost 5yr old thread, I feel justified in bumping this post.

This is exactly how it was back in the “good old days”, at least in my experience in the pre-VII Church.

The only time the Holy Eucharist was encouraged to the school children was on First Friday, when do-nuts and hot chocolate would be served.

Very few people recieved on Sundays.

And come to find out, years later, the Pastor was an alcoholic who was inebriated quite often. I was young and naiive. I never even knew until he was “sent away”. (May he rest in peace.)
 
my dad (God rest his soul) had a favorite story about the pre-VII priest at his local church:

one day, the church was unusually crowded, so a bunch of people had to stand in the back. just before starting Mass, the priest came out and told all the people standing to GET OUT. if they couldn’t make it to Mass on time to find a seat, they shouldn’t be there at all. one woman, who was actually sitting at the time, got up and shouted back that she was leaving too, and walked as loudly as she could down the aisle and out the door.
 
my mom (God rest her soul) also had MANY stories about abuses in the olden days, but one in particular really shocked me. apparently, in her village in Ireland, it was common practice for the priest to come into the school and choose who would be a priest, and who would be a nun.

one of my mom’s best friends was “chosen” to be a nun, even though she had no intention of becoming a religious. the friend went into the convent and only stayed there because of her mother. her high school sweetheart married someone else, but strangely enough, both her mother and her high school sweetheart’s wife passed away very close to each other (in time). once she found out, she left the convent immediately and married her high school sweetheart.
 
another story from my mom:

my mother was born out of wedlock in Dublin Ireland and was placed in an orphanage, where her mother payed for her upkeep each month for 6 years. eventually, my mother was promised to a family on the other side of Ireland (toward Galway), but before she left the orphanage, my grandmother came to the head nun there and said she was getting married and would like to have her daughter back. even though my mom was STILL AT THE ORPHANAGE, the head nun told my grandmother she had already been adopted and was gone. my grandmother was told to forget about my mother and to move on with her life.
 
I would be eager to see more. If these are the translation mistakes that have been found, I guess this is a yawner… I expect more substancial changes yet.

I don’t think any of us will have an impact on the new English translations, just eagerly await until they arrive.
Matariel said:
Haven’t you heard? The Pope stated that the English translation was wrong, and the new translation is coming out in 2009 - 2010 (?) and the words are a true translation, “many”, instead of “all”. Also, the Creed will be said as “I believe” not “We believe”, and the response to “The Lord be with you” will be “And with your spirit” not “And also with you”.
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my mom (God rest her soul) also had MANY stories about abuses in the olden days, but one in particular really shocked me. apparently, in her village in Ireland, it was common practice for the priest to come into the school and choose who would be a priest, and who would be a nun.

one of my mom’s best friends was “chosen” to be a nun, even though she had no intention of becoming a religious. the friend went into the convent and only stayed there because of her mother. her high school sweetheart married someone else, but strangely enough, both her mother and her high school sweetheart’s wife passed away very close to each other (in time). once she found out, she left the convent immediately and married her high school sweetheart.
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But what does this have to do with liturgical abuses?:confused:
 
Chatter163 said:
But what does this have to do with liturgical abuses?:confused:
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i see your point, and it is true this isn’t a liturgical abuse. but my posts are abuses by priests or nuns who only knew the tridentine rite, so i thought it worthwhile to show non-liturgical abuses as well. my reasoning is there are some who believe that all Hell has broken into the church due to the liturgical reforms of VII, when in fact, the devil has always been here regardless of which rite was practiced. am i not exactly on topic, sure, but it certainly is related, and IMHO worth posting.
 
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