Tridentine Mass in English?

[ProVobis]

Here’s what the north american Old Roman Catholic webpage says:
“The Old Roman Catholic Church has continued to worship and to celebrate the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass according to the ancient and revered Tridentine Rite as it has since its separation from the See of Rome. This Tridentine Rite is the common possession, heritage and patrimony of both Roman Catholic and Old Roman Catholic faithful, and is preserved with great love and care by the Old Roman Catholic Communion. While it was common in times past to celebrate this Rite of the Mass in the Latin language solely, the tradition and now immemorial custom of the Old Roman Catholic Church is to permit the Mass to be celebrated in the vernacular tongue while conforming in all things to the accurate translation of the ancient prayers and to observe the traditional rubrics in its celebration.”

Calling for “accurate” translations doesn’t mean you’re going to get them. There were papers written in the 60’s analyzing the proposed translations. Even today there is dispute over the English translation.

But interestingly enough even in the Latin, if the priest were to say “Hic est enim corpus meum” that would be different than “Hoc est enim corpus meum.” Why? Because of gender. “Hic” would refer to “panem” (bread) while “hoc” refers to “corpus.” (The ambiguous “this” in English circumvents the issue but it doesn’t make things clearer or people any wiser.)

By the way, the Greek distinguishes by gender as well.

Point is, even the most accurate translation can change meaning or remove the ability to distinguish.

 

[themodgairsofte]

SRSLY?

Zounds! Highest regards for your studies! What tenacity!
Of course, a question arises…
Will you have to seek out a new instructor for Latina X -or- will the Latina IX guy just keep on teaching at a higher class fee, charging more for the next course?

I’m envisioning a class of two or three where the students are as proficient as the professor?!

New instructor. My dad teaches college level Latin and we’ve been going over some St. Augustine this summer, which has been really fun, but he’ll be too busy to teach me Latin this year.

Here’s what the north american Old Roman Catholic webpage says:
“The Old Roman Catholic Church has continued to worship and to celebrate the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass according to the ancient and revered Tridentine Rite as it has since its separation from the See of Rome. This Tridentine Rite is the common possession, heritage and patrimony of both Roman Catholic and Old Roman Catholic faithful, and is preserved with great love and care by the Old Roman Catholic Communion. While it was common in times past to celebrate this Rite of the Mass in the Latin language solely, the tradition and now immemorial custom of the Old Roman Catholic Church is to permit the Mass to be celebrated in the vernacular tongue while conforming in all things to the accurate translation of the ancient prayers and to observe the traditional rubrics in its celebration.”
naorcc.org/#!worship/c1u8n

Old Roman Catholic Church meaning SSPX, or something like SSPX?

Just a question… how can you be an in-communion Catholic if you’ve separated from the See of Rome? That doesn’t make sense.

 

[Fuerza]

New instructor. My dad teaches college level Latin and we’ve been going over some St. Augustine this summer, which has been really fun, but he’ll be too busy to teach me Latin this year.

Old Roman Catholic Church meaning SSPX, or something like SSPX?

Just a question… how can you be an in-communion Catholic if you’ve separated from the See of Rome? That doesn’t make sense.

Old Roman Catholic refers to a group of Churches distinct from, though at least distantly related to, the Utrecht churches, who reject papal supremacy but accept most other Roman Catholic beliefs. They run the gamut in beliefs from essentially “Western Orthodox” to almost completely Roman Catholic. Even though they reject papal supremacy, they do hold a degree of respect for the Pope as the head of an historical patriarchate (Rome), and commemorate him in their liturgies. Some groups even accept papal infallibility, but again, not universal jurisdiction. Unlike the Utrecht Old Catholics, the Old Roman Catholics reject same sex marriage and female ordination, and in general remain very traditional. These groups tend to use an English version of the Tridentine Mass (most of these churches are based in the US, Canada and Great Britain) though they permit and sometimes make use of Latin. The largest of these churches are the Old Roman Catholic Church in Great Britain, The Old Roman Catholic Church in America, the Old Roman Catholic Church in North America and the North American Old Roman Catholic Church, though I’m sure that there are others. Rome recognizes the orders of their clergy and, though they are considered in schism, relations are generally amicable.

 

[ProVobis]

Old Roman Catholic Church meaning SSPX, or something like SSPX?

Just a question… how can you be an in-communion Catholic if you’ve separated from the See of Rome? That doesn’t make sense.

You’re right, it doesn’t. But they still claim valid Apostolic Succession, and the Vatican does not dispute it.

 

[themodgairsofte]

You’re right, it doesn’t. But they still claim valid Apostolic Succession, and the Vatican does not dispute it.

The Vatican doesn’t dispute it because they do have valid Apostolic Succession. They usually, however, don’t have faculties, except for this Year of Mercy.

 

[Jon_Mallory]

Never gonna happen. It’s too modern for the trads and too traditional for the contemporary folk.

 

[spina1953]

For me I would like to see the Mass said in English; but it does need to be just as it is said in Latin. Nothing wrong in saying Mass in Latin and there is nothing wrong saying the Mass in English. The translation does however, be as close to the Latin as can be.; Remember in the day when East and West was one and when Peter and Paul were in Rome and long afterwards Mass was said in Greek because that was the Language of the empire not Latin; although common people in Rome did speak Latin but it was not as wide spread in the Western part of the empire till long after say around the 3rd or 4th century. Which at that time when the Mass was said in Greek that was the language spoken throughout the empire and later when Latin started to be spoken more and more in the West then Latin became widespread in the West as the language of the people, Mass started to be said in Latin, The Church did not change it when Latin was no longer the main language of the people.

 

[ProVobis]

For me I would like to see the Mass said in English; but it does need to be just as it is said in Latin. Nothing wrong in saying Mass in Latin and there is nothing wrong saying the Mass in English. The translation does however, be as close to the Latin as can be.; Remember in the day when East and West was one and when Peter and Paul were in Rome and long afterwards Mass was said in Greek because that was the Language of the empire not Latin; although common people in Rome did speak Latin but it was not as wide spread in the Western part of the empire till long after say around the 3rd or 4th century. Which at that time when the Mass was said in Greek that was the language spoken throughout the empire and later when Latin started to be spoken more and more in the West then Latin became widespread in the West as the language of the people, Mass started to be said in Latin, The Church did not change it when Latin was no longer the main language of the people.

It is doubtful if Latin with all its grammatical rules was ever the street language of the Roman Empire. One of the reasons why people, including Greeks, wrote in Latin, was to preserve The Bible, documents, Roman law, the liturgy, and later scientific principles, among other things. Even U.S. currency.

A Latinist has over 2500 yrs of Latin writings to choose from. Too bad we don’t take it seriously anymore.

 

[spina1953]

Hi ProVobis, Thanks for your thoughts! yes, i have to agree with you on what you said. Its true and maybe more to the point than mine. As they say “all who Latin is a dead language and all who learned Latin died and all who will learn Latin will die.” Latin being a dead language means that no new words can be added so all in all its the mean reason why it is used by the Church as well as for example Medicine. Italian, Spanish, Portigeese, French, and Romanian are derived from Latin. Latin is a very beautiful language. I agree that Latin spoken on the streets by the masses is not the same as those those spoken by the educated Roman’s or the Elete. I also agree we are not taking Latin as seriously as it once was.

 

[quies]

…As they say “all who Latin is a dead language and all who learned Latin died and all who will learn Latin will die.”…

Written on the first page of every used Latin schoolbook:

Latin
All the people dead who wrote it.
All the people dead who spoke it.
All the people dead who learn it.
…Blessed death, they surely earn it.

 

[spina1953]

Written on the first page of every used Latin schoolbook:

Latin
All the people dead who wrote it.
All the people dead who spoke it.
All the people dead who learn it.
…Blessed death, they surely earn it.

You are quite right O was being loose with the quote

 

[Venerabilis]

One thing I’ve always wondered, hypothetically:

If the 1965 English translation of the TLM was approved, valid, and licit for several years in the Anglosphere, would it not be approved, valid, and licit for any priest to use it for all time?

In the same vein, couldn’t a priest fulfill his obligation to pray the Divine Office by using, say, the 1964 Benzinger Brs. translation of the Roman Breviary, since it was also approved, valid, and licit for several years?

Does liceity exist only for a single edition of a Mass or Office? Does a new edition thus end the liceity of an old one?

 

[ProVobis]

One thing I’ve always wondered, hypothetically:

If the 1965 English translation of the TLM was approved, valid, and licit for several years in the Anglosphere, would it not be approved, valid, and licit for any priest to use it for all time?

No. When Pope John Paul II in 1984 allowed the older rite to be said, he specified that only the 1962 liturgical books be used and must be said in Latin. There are no approved translations other than perhaps the Epistle and Gospel at a Low Mass. But this is an option which I have yet to see or hear in practice; it is usually saved as part of the homily after the readings in Latin.

The Agatha Christie Indult I’ve read used the missal of 1967 but its use was quite limited.

 

[themodgairsofte]

There are no approved translations other than perhaps the Epistle and Gospel at a Low Mass. But this is an option which I have yet to see or hear in practice; it is usually saved as part of the homily after the readings in Latin.

One of the priests (in his 90’s) at my church. does this.