The Mass is never for our personal satisfaction and fulfillment. It is our participation in the sacrifice of Calvary. If the Traditional Latin Mass helps certain people to participate better in that sacrifice, then the pastor should certainly provide for their needs. If the pastor is unable, the matter should be referred to the Bishop. If the Bishop is unable, the matter should be referred to Ecclesia Dei.If you have the manpower to pull it off without affecting other Masses, there is no problem.
Our parish has approx 11,000 members. The church seats 400. Our priest (we have only one) says 7 masses each weekend (English and Spanish), with standing room only outside in the streets and parking lots.
Do I want him to start a TLM so that a few dozen people can have the Mass said for their personal satisfaction and fulfillment. No.
There are people who have that grace of being drawn to its beauty, but majority don’t feel that way. I still see education as the key to interest–understanding what it is will make more people appreciate it.I wasn’t drawn to the Latin Mass by any particular education program. I just saw it, and I was hooked. It really is that simple.
Well, if this is the thinking, then most would rather have the Mass now, since many are more comfortable with it. It’s not hard to figure out where it will go.The TLM is certainly not doomed if people are simply allowed to follow their own preferences.
No, it shouldn’t be forced, but to make it an option will not bring people to it. Why go to something they don’t know when they have something they’re comfortable with? That’s why I don’t see the TLM going back soon, unless the Church mandates that it is the Mass to be celebrated. Then people will have no other choice but to attend it. It happened with the Mass now–when the Church mandated it is the Mass that will be done, people went to it simply because it’s what the Church mandated. Now, people are comfortable with it, and having the TLM as a mere choice for people to request isn’t about to bring it back.You have to trust in the draw of our sacred traditions! Many people instantly recognize the value of the Traditional Mass and can see the work of the Holy Spirit in it. It is the value of the Traditional Mass itself which will bring it back to the heart of the church. It doesn’t need to be forced on anyone!
These statements seem to be contradictory. You say above that it’s not for us personally, but the TLM is for certain people.The Mass is never for our personal satisfaction and fulfillment.
If the Traditional Latin Mass helps certain people to participate better in that sacrifice, then the pastor should certainly provide for their needs.
My objection is that you seem to be framing the need for a Traditional Latin Mass as some sort of selfish desire on the part of a few fogies who want to disrupt the life of their parish so that they can better “enjoy” the Mass. I feel that this is completely off-base.These statements seem to be contradictory. You say above that it’s not for us personally, but the TLM is for certain people.
Latin is not good for most people. But it’s good for you. Therefore you want to have it. Which means to me, for you personal satisfaction and fulfillment.
In our parish, to fulfill the “needs” of perhaps a few dozen, we would need to cancel one of our 7 other Masses which serve so many more. How can this make sense to you?
I’m not so sure. Take a look at this chart of TLM growth under the indult when this “choice” has been severely limited.It happened with the Mass now–when the Church mandated it is the Mass that will be done, people went to it simply because it’s what the Church mandated. Now, people are comfortable with it, and having the TLM as a mere choice for people to request isn’t about to bring it back.
I don’t doubt at all that a few people would benefit.The extraordinary form of the Mass significantly aids certain people in participating in the sacrifice, in worshipping God better, and in growing in faith and love for the Lord. These are genuine spiritual needs. They are not selfish or superfluous. If the pastor is able, he should provide for them.
I love it when we get talk about 600% growth, without mentioning 600% of what.“In the ten years since *Ecclesia Dei *, the Fraternity of St. Peter has seen a six hundred percent growth in the number of priests (how many Orders nowadays could claim as much), and still has to turn numbers of applicants away each year from their two seminaries due to lack of space (how many seminaries have to do that, these days?). This Fraternity, the first fruits of Ecclesia Dei, is currently at work in 15 dioceses in the USA, and has 23 apostolates in Europe. Likewise, the institute of Christ the King is unable to accept all of the many applicants to its seminary at Gricigliano near Florence; whilst, in the traditional religious movement, the youth of nearly all of the religious is in marked contrast to most contemporary religious houses.”
- from an address given in 1998
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I must disagree with you… some people have a genuine need for the traditional sacraments.I don’t doubt at all that a few people would benefit.
But it is not a need. It is a desire.
I desire people to be more reverent during Mass. But lacking that, I’ll get along.
I desire not to wait an hour for confession. But lacking that, I’ll get along.
I desire to have more teachers so I do not to have to teach 3 high school CCD classes with 25 kids each. But if my “need” is to have only 1 class with 10 kids, with 65 being added to other already overcrowded classes, I’ll get along.
A desire fulfilled at the expense of others real needs, I see as selfish.
What you say about the TLM could also be said of many other spiritual “needs”. I can see a line forming right outside the pastor’s office - “but you have a TLM for so and so, why can’t we have…that’s a real NEED for us”
Perhaps you have a surplus of priests who have very little to do. If so, then you are extraordinarily fortunate. If the other needs of the parish have been fulfilled, and they have time, hey, I’d go to a TLM on occasion too.
But before you walk into the Bishop’s office and demand the TLM in your parish, perhaps you should look at your pastor’s schedule. The only time he might have available is 2-4AM. But you’d have to prop him up at the altar so when he falls asleep he doesn’t tip over.
I just don’t quite understand.Our priest is probably more typical - he doesn’t know Latin at all. He will go with the flow, but learning Latin and a new mass rite because a few people might come may not be a good investment of his time. He already says 7 weekend masses in English and Spanish in addition to his other duties.
I do not have any statistics concerning high school seminaries, but my understanding is that they all but disappeared long ago. Furtrher, many seminarians don’t even attend a college seminary, as many vocations now are from people who have graduated from college and had a job, career, etc. They may need to take some Philosophy prior to entering the graduate level and taking theology. But classic education has waned over time. And so has Latin.I just don’t quite understand.
Seminarians, from first year in H.S., are given a classical education, including Caesar, Cicero, Livy, Ovid.
Church latin is much simpler than Cicero ever was. I think they are just putting up obstacles for themselves that don’t really exist.
If there are priests out there who never had a classical education, I’d love to hear from them.
peace
I don’t have any statistics to counter what you have said, and you may be right.I do not have any statistics concerning high school seminaries, but my understanding is that they all but disappeared long ago. Furtrher, many seminarians don’t even attend a college seminary, as many vocations now are from people who have graduated from college and had a job, career, etc. They may need to take some Philosophy prior to entering the graduate level and taking theology. But classic education has waned over time. And so has Latin.
This is not the impression I get from my friend who is in seminary right now. Lots of philosophy, and he’s taking his first semester of Latin - so I’m assuming that he will be getting more semesters of it.I do not have any statistics concerning high school seminaries, but my understanding is that they all but disappeared long ago. Furtrher, many seminarians don’t even attend a college seminary, as many vocations now are from people who have graduated from college and had a job, career, etc. They may need to take some Philosophy prior to entering the graduate level and taking theology. But classic education has waned over time. And so has Latin.
With respect, the above may be your opinion, but it doesn’t apply to a lot of people. It doesn’t focus my heart on higher things, it simply keeps me from understanding what’s being said. There is also no definitive proof (because the use of Latin is NOT a part of the deposit of the Apotstolic faith, but came about in about 300-400 AD) that the Holy Spirit has maintained Latin as our unique liturgical language (Latin is unique in that no other religious body uses it). The competent authority of the Church allowed the expansion of the vernacular and the vernacular is perfectly capable of pointing us to the holiness of the Mass.The value in Latin is that it isn’t an ‘everyday’ language. It is precisely because it isn’t used in everyday speech that it has such value in the liturgy. It focuses our hearts on higher things. It helps us to recognize the sacredness and other-worldliness of the Eucharist. It sets worship apart as something special - not something mundane.
If Latin were the “local language”, this simply wouldn’t hold true. It’s value would be diminished. The Holy Spirit, though, in His wisdom, has maintained Latin uniquely as our liturgical language - a language which points us to the holiness of the Mass.
From what I have seen, it is not “some” philosophy; it is the equivalent of a B.A. in Philosophy, or close to it. and I am not quite ready to assign anything back to the 15th century. My experience of priests who have been recently ordained is very positive; again, I am in Oregon so experience is area related.I don’t have any statistics to counter what you have said, and you may be right.
All the more sad. How are they supposed to understand theology if they haven’t had a proper rooting in Philosophy? "Some philosophy’ is not going to do it.
People on this site would have a better understanding of the issues involved in what they are supposed to learn. We’ve gone back to the 15th century.
peace
Well, that makes me feel a little bit better.From what I have seen, it is not “some” philosophy; it is the equivalent of a B.A. in Philosophy, or close to it. and I am not quite ready to assign anything back to the 15th century. My experience of priests who have been recently ordained is very positive; again, I am in Oregon so experience is area related.
I see your point - having a special language for the liturgy (or for praying, etc.) can emphasize that this is a special event.
That’s why I support the Thee’s and Thou’s in the Hail Mary, Our Father, etc. It reminds us that this isn’t the next door neighbor we’re talking to.
But to have the whole liturgy in Latin - sorry.
Remember, Latin WAS the local language of the entire Roman Empire and most of Western Europe for maybe 1500 years. If the early popes had wanted the whole thing to be special, they should have picked Persian or Chinese. To emphasize how special the mass is, of course. But they didn’t. They picked the local language - Latin.
PS I’ve been to perhaps 2000 TLM masses earlier in my life. Have you (and the other supporters?) YES
PPS I’m all for more reverence during Mass. I’m not against the return of other elements of the TLM, only the L part. How do you feel about toungs that no one can understand? This seems to be very popular right now. Latin prayers are well understood by even our young children if they are taught as the Church has reminded parents is their duty. But, toungs have no understanding and is considered the language of the angles? I don’t understand.
Hi KathleenElsie,How do you feel about toungs that no one can understand? This seems to be very popular right now. Latin prayers are well understood by even our young children if they are taught as the Church has reminded parents is their duty. But, toungs have no understanding and is considered the language of the angles? I don’t understand.
Actually, the Holy Father has asked us to learn the common, “sung” parts in Latin and some other prayers. I’m trying to do so, though I don’t see the value of it outside a papal Mass in Rome or something.And I’m not aware of any Church requirement, or even suggestion that we teach children prayers in Latin.
Actually, both Pope John Paul II and Benedict XVI (Sacramentum Caritatis) mandated that the faithful know their basic prayers in Latin.And I’m not aware of any Church requirement, or even suggestion that we teach children prayers in Latin.
Actually, the Holy Father has asked us to learn the common, “sung” parts in Latin and some other prayers. I’m trying to do so, though I don’t see the value of it outside a papal Mass in Rome or something.