Tridentine Mass & the people

[Catholig]

Hey Everyone,

I am not opposed to the TLM - as some of you may no I even volunteered to be an altar boy for it - however I just wanted to post some of my thoughts. Some people make the accusation that no one used to know what was going on in the TLM, and this of course is not true. If you had a missal you could follow along well…I would like, however, to ask how much pre-19th century people understood, since the first English Missal for the Laity that I know of only dates back to the 1800s. What did the people around the time of the Council of Trent know about the Mass?

Catholig

 

[Brennan_Doherty]

Hey Everyone,

I am not opposed to the TLM - as some of you may no I even volunteered to be an altar boy for it - however I just wanted to post some of my thoughts. Some people make the accusation that no one used to know what was going on in the TLM, and this of course is not true. If you had a missal you could follow along well…I would like, however, to ask how much pre-19th century people understood, since the first English Missal for the Laity that I know of only dates back to the 1800s. What did the people around the time of the Council of Trent know about the Mass?

Catholig

Probably a great deal more than we do today. I think it was Cardinal Ratzinger who wrote that what is going on at Mass comes through not just in the words, but in the gestures, symbols, art, architecture and actions of the Priest and laity. If one reads much at all in Eamon Duffy’s “The Sripping of the Altars”, which covers the time period around the Reforation, one realizes how the Faith infused the lives of the laity. And not just at Mass, but in the celebrations of the Faith outside it as well.

Further, I sometimes think that since Latin is so foundational to most European languages that perhaps it wasn’t as indecipherable as we might imagine.

Here’s a snippet from the Council of Trent:

CHAPTER VIII
THE MASS MAY NOT BE CELEBRATED IN THE VERNACULAR. ITS MYSTERIES TO BE EXPLAINED TO THE PEOPLE

Though the mass contains much instruction for the faithful, it has, nevertheless, not been deemed advisable by the Fathers that it should be celebrated everywhere in the vernacular tongue. Wherefore, the ancient rite of each Church, approved by the holy Roman Church, the mother and mistress of all churches, being everywhere retained, that the sheep of Christ may not suffer hunger, or <the little ones ask for bread and there is none to break it unto them,>[19] the holy council commands pastors and all who have the that they, either themselves or through others, explain frequently during the celebration of the mass some of the things read during the mass, and that among other things they explain some mystery of this most holy sacrifice, especially on Sundays and festival days.[20]

… and they shall instruct the people as to what the very precious and heavenly fruit of this most holy sacrifice is and whence especially it is derived.

americancatholictruthsociety.com/docs/TRENT/trent22.htm

 

[AJV]

Hey Everyone,

I am not opposed to the TLM - as some of you may no I even volunteered to be an altar boy for it - however I just wanted to post some of my thoughts. Some people make the accusation that no one used to know what was going on in the TLM, and this of course is not true. If you had a missal you could follow along well…I would like, however, to ask how much pre-19th century people understood, since the first English Missal for the Laity that I know of only dates back to the 1800s. What did the people around the time of the Council of Trent know about the Mass?

Catholig

If by “know about the Mass” you men they knew that is was a sacrifice- they definitely did. If you meant what was being said, chances are they did not. They said their own prayers. One reason was that Latin (at least a lot of the Proper parts) was not well understood by some, and the other was that even for those who did, the priest was quite likely not fully audible to them.

Gardiner, for example, in responding to the Protestant Cramner on this point, simply asserted that “it was never meant for people to hear the Mattins or hear the Mass”

Eamon Duffy says it better so I’ll quote him- “The Stripping of the Altars” :

It was not thought essential or even desirable that the prayer of the laity should be the same as the priest

and

These were the fundamental requirements for the laity at Mass: to kneel quietly without idle chatter, saying Paters and Aves, to respond to certain key gestures and phrases by changing posture and above all at the sacring to kneel with both hands raised in adoration, to gaze on the Host and to greet their Lord with an elevation prayer"

It was common to have books with devotional prayers corresponding to different parts of the Mass. Or recite the Little Office (in Latin). Or meditating on the Mass as the Vita Christi (Life of Christ) or the Passion, through the priest’s actions.

The prevalent idea was that what was sacred should not be unveiled- so, for example, in Ad aures nostras, Alexander VII regarded the translation as an attempt to overthrow and trample the majesty of the Most Sacred Rite found in the Latin words and expose termariously the dignity of the Sacred Mysteries to the vulgar (et ita Sacrosancti Ritus majestatem Latinis vocibus comprehensam dejicere, et proterere, ac Sacrorum mysteriorum dignitatem vulgo exponere temerario conatu tentaverint)

Trent, though, ushered in the idea that the Mass should at least be more visible to the people - removal of screens and so forth.

 

[Andreas_Hofer]

To follow up on AJV’s points, I think it should be remembered that the means of participation was much different back then. Most - if not all - laypeople would not have known the exact texts of the Mass as we are wont to follow them now, but they remained nevertheless highly invested in the rites and did not see their Mass devotions as something to do simply during Mass but a means of entering into the Mass itself.

 

[kleary]

Hey Everyone,

I am not opposed to the TLM - as some of you may no I even volunteered to be an altar boy for it - however I just wanted to post some of my thoughts. Some people make the accusation that no one used to know what was going on in the TLM, and this of course is not true. If you had a missal you could follow along well…I would like, however, to ask how much pre-19th century people understood, since the first English Missal for the Laity that I know of only dates back to the 1800s. What did the people around the time of the Council of Trent know about the Mass?

Catholig

My three year old son - can follow the Tridentine Mass- even respond in Latin where indicated. AND HE CANNOT EVEN READ. He knows when things are about to happen, pays attention and everything. He even plays Mass at home. He cries aloud when the priest opens the Tabernacle, “I’m afraid!” or especially when Benediction happens after Holy Mass…“I’m Afraid” he says to me because he KNOWS God is there- a simple three year old who cannot read KNOWS God is there simply by what he sees transpire at the Tridentine Mass…

So you are right indeed. The accusation is not true and it has been an excuse to wreckovate the Church and her sacred liturgy.

Ken

 

[tcraig]

Hey Everyone,

I am not opposed to the TLM - as some of you may no I even volunteered to be an altar boy for it - however I just wanted to post some of my thoughts. Some people make the accusation that no one used to know what was going on in the TLM, and this of course is not true. If you had a missal you could follow along well…I would like, however, to ask how much pre-19th century people understood, since the first English Missal for the Laity that I know of only dates back to the 1800s. What did the people around the time of the Council of Trent know about the Mass?

Catholig

I currently live in Germany, before that Italy, and have visited many old churches here in Europe.

One thing that always strikes me is the amount of symbolism that is apparent in the carvings/statues/paintings/stained glass of the old churches, all of which were done by laymen. It is apparent that not only did the “Catholics of old” understand their faith, church history, and the mass much better than we sometimes think, they also had particular saints for each area that they looked up to.

In addition, Catholic customs were woven into the very life of the community. I currently live in Heidelberg, Germany. It’s pretty obvious from attending church in this area that the faith is pretty much gone from the younger generation. But Catholic customs live on. For the past two years on January 6 I have had the local church come to my house, recite a few religious poems, and make the 20 + C + M + B + 07 in chalk on the lintel of my doorway. You can see this all over my area. Many German holidays are Catholic holidays (even if modern Germans don’t observe the feast and attend mass). It was the same when I lived in Italy - Catholics customs dictated much of Italian life (even though the population is now mainly “culturally Catholic”.)

Don’t forget that it was also the law in many European countries (and also in the U.S. for awhile, even though it was protestant) that people attend mass on Sunday. In fact, most people attended mass daily, at least through the Middle Ages. Additionally, there wasn’t a lot of reading material for the average person outside of the Bible. When I gaze upon the stained-glass windows of my local German church, it’s obvious that Bible history was well-known among the local citizenry.

 

[brotherhrolf]

My three year old son - can follow the Tridentine Mass- even respond in Latin where indicated. AND HE CANNOT EVEN READ. He knows when things are about to happen, pays attention and everything. He even plays Mass at home. He cries aloud when the priest opens the Tabernacle, “I’m afraid!” or especially when Benediction happens after Holy Mass…“I’m Afraid” he says to me because he KNOWS God is there- a simple three year old who cannot read KNOWS God is there simply by what he sees transpire at the Tridentine Mass…

So you are right indeed. The accusation is not true and it has been an excuse to wreckovate the Church and her sacred liturgy.

Ken

Oh my. Wow, access to the Sanctum Sanctoram. Did I not know this and understand this back in the 50s when I was a kid. Little kids are innocents and see the world as it is.

How much have we lost. Or is it lost? I don’t think it’s lost. There are far too many of us who grew up before Vatican II. I don’t necessarily have to have a TLM but I could easily and willingly drop back to what was the NO in 1965 i.e. a simplified TLM in Latin.

 

[rwoehmke]

Trent, though, ushered in the idea that the Mass should at least be more visible to the people - removal of screens and so forth.

I heard one time of something called a Rood Screen. I this what you mean? What was it and what was its purpose? Was it traditional?