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dessert
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Thank you for this list, I actually attend an NO but my priest does most of this but I didn’t know why. He is very reverent than the other 4 parishes, I feel blessed. Dessert
"Tridentine Mass--Will Anyone Come?" Catholic Press doing a smear job on the TLM
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Cranch
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I wonder if you’ve seen this.
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holy_roamer
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Yeeks!
Where does that leave us ex-Catholics and Protestants who have been fellowshipping with you guys for the past 40 years? Maybe, Rev. Sara has it right? There is the official position, and then there is a huge amount of loving one another at all levels.
The Rev. Sara MacVane, of the Anglican Centre in Rome, said there was nothing new in the document.
“I don’t know what motivated it at this time,” she said. “But it’s important always to point out that there’s the official position and there’s the huge amount of friendship and fellowship and worshipping together that goes on at all levels, certainly between Anglican and Catholics and all the other groups and Catholics.”
I have been fairly active in the Charismatic Renewal and can testify to the a above quote. Many of them are Protestants or Catholic just about to step into a Charismatic Church. I’m not saying that the Pope is speaking out of both sides of his mouth, but here is his recent letter to our Burning Bush Catholic Charismatic Renewal group:
iccrs.org/40Anniversary2007/40Anniversary_papal_letter_2007.html
Plus, the Bishop will be at our Healing Mass next month. But of course, I had better tone in down a little now that I have been officially alienated by the Pope.
Anyway, it was a good 40 years, Praise God!
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orgel_maestro
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weird, I’ve gone to numerous both solemn high and low masses at my parish, and in both cases, the Tridentine masses take longer. Sundays, it goes on for about 1.5 hours, and on the weekdays at low mass its about 45 minutes, while its only 50 minutes for a Sunday Novus Ordo and 25 min for a weekday Novus Ordo. Perhaps, the first priest has only attended a Sunday low mass, he doesnt know what he’s talking about.
And, according to the second priest, his only concern seemed to be that younger priests now adays need to learn more Latin n to be at least semi-fluent. However, I think if a priest goes through the trouble nowadays to try n learn the old form, it shows he is committed and would in most cases celebrate it reverently.
Back to the first article, I’ve been attending mass here in Poland, Tridentine masses that is, and it was before V2 n still is the norm for the people to respond with the servers during Mass. So, perhaps if Father is worried that the people are lazy, the people should make like the Europeans n recite the responses.
I really like our Holy Father, he has allowed wider use of the Tridentine mass I think in order to give greater expose to the faithful, and eventually we will get a mixing of the two, forming a more organic form of the Mass, a mass which slowly evolves rather than all these abrupt changes like after V2. I sincerly believe that the final aim for his Motu Proprio, is to create a more traditional form of the mass which is more reverent and God-oriented, i.e. a Tridentine Mass in the vernacular with people responding with the servers and no guitar music and more traditional hymns and perhaps some chant.
In my opinion, whether or not people will go to the Latin masses depends on the situation in your diocese. It depends a lot on how Mass is celebrated. For the most part, Mass in the united states can be very irreverent and man-oriented, instead of Christ oriented. For example, dancing at Mass or w/e. This lack of reverence and yearning for something more spiritual and reverent has fueled a greater response among Catholics here in the United states. FSSP and the Institute of Christ the King have lots of parishioners. I know at my parish, it is always filled with people from all over the San Francisco Bay area, many traveling from other dioceses.
However, the Latin Mass is not as popular in Poland, this I’ve concluded based on my own personal experience. How many people showed up at First Friday Mass (Latin)? I can count them on one hand - 5 including me. How many showed up at the university chapel for a Novus Ordo mass? Too many, people had to stand both inside and outside the church. How many show up for a Sunday low mass (Latin)? - 15 if you’re lucky. How many show up on Sunday to the university chapel - overcrowded. Mass in Poland is very spiritual, reverent and uplifting. This is why in my opinion there are so many few Latin mass goers here. So I would say it depends on where u live and how Mass is celebrated in general in your diocese.
Forgive me if someone has already mentioned this, or if I’ve gone off topic. I like the Tridentine mass, but I think obediance to the Holy Father and to church dogma is important. I also think re-catechization of the people will be necessary.
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Brennan_Doherty
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Yes, thank God for Pope Benedict. Truth above unity, as unity not based on truth is false.
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holy_roamer
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Yes, people begin to forget why they hate one another, and they need a Pope to pull out old documents to remind them. May God Bless the work of his hand. I think that you Catholics are going to be awful lonely up there by your selves.
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Cranch
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You’ve implied the Church’s “official” position is lacking in love for the separated brethren, setting up a dichotomy that goes beyond Rev. Sara MacVane’s comment. Do you know the expression “tough love”? This is not about telling folks what they want to here or “going along to get along” in our so-easily-offended society. This is about witnessing to the truth, as Brennan posted above.
Commentators have said there is nothing new here; that the document restates principles laid out in 2000 in Dominus Iesus. In fact none of this has ever been new. Forty plus years ago Vatican II, the poster child for ecumenism, had this to say in Unitatis Redintegratio, the Decree on Ecumenism:
3§5 Nevertheless, our separated brethren, whether considered as individuals or as Communities and Churches, are not blessed with that unity which Jesus Christ wished to bestow on all those who through Him were born again into one body, and with Him quickened to newness of life-that unity which the Holy Scriptures and the ancient Tradition of the Church proclaim. For it is only through Christ’s Catholic Church, which is “the all-embracing means of salvation,” that they can benefit fully from the means of salvation. We believe that Our Lord entrusted all the blessings of the New Covenant to the apostolic college alone, of which Peter is the head, in order to establish the one Body of Christ on earth to which all should be fully incorporated who belong in any way to the people of God.
I recommend reading the whole document. There is love there, but truth as well.
All of the above was written before your last unwarranted insult of the Pope which I found most lacking in charity and which probably violated forum conduct rule #7. I wonder if, as a new user, you have had the opportunity to read the forum rules?
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Jean_Anthony
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Please stay on topic. Take side issues into new threads in the appropriate fora. I will have to close the thread if it is hijacked. Thank you.
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holy_roamer
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If you go back and read my post I said, “May God Bless the work of his hand”.
I knew that you were looking for a simple fight with a Protestant when you posted that link. I give up now….You win……I will not fight you….bye…Catch you later!
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AngelicDoctor
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- Why does the word “Eucharist” alienate or offend non-Catholic Christians? Do you understand what the term “eucharist” means as it appears in the Greek New Testament. The Eucharist is an ACT of worship… this ACT of worship is performed eternally by the PERSON of JESUS (Jesus offers this worship to the Father eternally–and we as the body of Christ are united with Jesus in this worship/offering). What could be more Christo-centric than being united with Jesus in his sacrifice of thanksgiving, praise, and loving self-offering to the Father in the Holy Spirit.
"In the first multiplication of loaves, Jesus pronounces a “blessing” according to the synoptics (Mt 14:19), a “thanksgiving” according to Jn 6:11, 23). In the second multiplication, Mt 15:36 mentions a “thanksgiving” while Mk 8:6 speaks of a “thanksgiving” over the bread and a “blessing” over the fish. This practical equating of the two dissuades us from distinguishing at the last supper between the “blessing” over the bread (Mt 26:26 p; cf. Lk 24:30) and the “thanksgiving” over the cup (Mt 26:27, p). Paul, in any case, speaks of them inversely, with the “thanksgiving” over the bread (1 Cor 11:24) and the “blessing” over the cup (1 Cor 10:16). " --From Xavier Leon-Dufour, Dictionary of Biblical Theology, Word Among Us Press, p. 145. Read 1 Corinthians 10 and the Last Supper discources, and the multiplication of the loaves accounts… rather than “eucharist” (thanksgiving/praise) what would YOU call true Christian worship? St. Paul is telling us that this eucharist service is what was passed down from the Lord himself.
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AngelicDoctor
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Sorry moderator,… just saw warning… I will post my responses in the SACRAMENTS forum. Holy Roamer, please check out that forum and look for this thread.
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AngelicDoctor
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Anyone else have anything to say about coverage of the Traditional Latin Mass in the Catholic press?
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holy_roamer
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Okay, I’ll catch up with you later over in the Sacraments Forum. It’s a beautiful day out here in California, so I will be outside all afternoon. Then, we have a Weekday 6:00 PM Tridentine Latin Low Mass where I plan to meditate. It will be late tonight Pacific Time when I catch up with you again. God Bless, and thanks for offering your help.
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Catholig
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Will Anyone Come? by Rev. Peter J. Daly:
Also he seems to think that interior participation is impossible.
Catholig
I don’t know if anyone has contacted this priest - however he seems to be stating that Extraordinary Ministers of Holy Communion are there to increase lay participation in the Mass and not as the USCCB states a “provision”.
Also he seems to think that interior participation is impossible.
Catholig
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mystified
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Catholig,
There was always the option prior to VII, an option not often taken, for the traditional Mass to be a Dialogue Mass in which the congregation did, indeed, participate by joining in the responses.
In the Indult TLMs that I’ve attended in recent years, most of the people did join in the responses with the altarboys. This is probably as it should have always been. Th altarboys, in effect, were standing in for everyone. It really is not that hard to learn “Et cum spiritu tuo” and other Latin parts that legitimately belong to the laity.
There was always the option prior to VII, an option not often taken, for the traditional Mass to be a Dialogue Mass in which the congregation did, indeed, participate by joining in the responses.
In the Indult TLMs that I’ve attended in recent years, most of the people did join in the responses with the altarboys. This is probably as it should have always been. Th altarboys, in effect, were standing in for everyone. It really is not that hard to learn “Et cum spiritu tuo” and other Latin parts that legitimately belong to the laity.
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Catholig
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Mystified - I don’t think that there is anything wrong with Dialogue Masses, however I also don’t see anything wrong with interior participation, and reverent silence.
In any case - my main point is that Rev. Peter J. Daly seemed to be saying that EMHCs are there for greater lay participation, when in fact they should NOT be there for that reason. When in fact a deacon should distribute Holy Communion if present.
Catholig
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otjm
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There is only one slight problem with that. The current Mass can be said in Latin, and the demand for that is so underwhelming as to be about non-existent. If it were so powerfully a means of uniting all of different languages in worship, it would be demanded without end.I am new to all of this, so have patience with me.My husband offered up the best argument for the Latin Mass that I’ve heard so far. Being still in RCIA classes, I was a little afraid of the Latin Mass, and I’d heard bad things about it from my prodestant family. My husband pointed out a Church that we went to last year that had an english and a spanish mass. He pointed out that the Latin mass would make that unneccessary, and everyone could worship and commune together. I thought that was great.
I would love to go to church with EVERYONE, instead of having to seperate. I think it’s kind of neat, having a language set aside for worship. I know that is not how latin started, but seems to be that now.
It simply isn’t demanded at all. In fact, those who are in favor of the Missla of 1962 have almost nothing to say either about the current Mass in Latin.
The power of the vernacular is much greter than many people give credit for.
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mystified
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During the past forty years, I have heard the “new” Mass in English, Polish, Spanish and German. Have never found a church in the U.S., México, or Western Europe that offered it in Latin. The closest was early in the introduction of the vernacular Mass, when what has been called a “hybrid” of English and Latin, and German and Latin, were celebrated. It has been televised from St. Peter’s Basilica in Latin.
If the N.O. Mass were offered in Latin, would anyone come?
If the N.O. Mass were offered in Latin, would anyone come?
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Brennan_Doherty
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Yes, which is why Mass attendance dropped from about 2/3 to 1/3 after the Coucil.
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Rabbititus
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I do wonder if the lack of demand is mostly due to people simply not knowing it’s available, or being scared away from it by people who play up the ten minute low mass and the fact that no one was taught any prayers in Latin like they should have been. I honestly didn’t think Latin was an option at all until I started finding out about it online.
I can’t imagine all of the people who grew up exclusively in the average suburban parish with soft folksy-music and casual atmosphere wanting the mass in Latin because they likely didn’t know it even exists. And even if they do know about it, the prospect of attending a mass that one was never prepared for must be a turn off. People tend to want what they are familiar and comfortable with.
I think that if the Vatican demanded that children be taught their basic prayers in Latin, and some of the ordinary of mass in Latin, there would in a generation be a much greater demand for Latin liturgy in either use.
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