Tridentine Mass

[Curious_Jim]

I love the beauty and order of the Tridentine Mass. It has such rich music and ritual attached to it. It embodies the sacred. I had many oportunities to participate in sinnging Gregorian chant, classical Latin hymns written by masters.

I also see the wonderful community-oriented structure of the post Vatican II Mass.
Certainly, there is a serious problem that has come from the casual and impromptu styles of many celebrants. There is a serious assault on the sense of the sacred going on in many dioceses around this country, and probably elsewhere. It seems the priest-celebrant thinks he has better ways of expressing the prayers of the Mass than those experts who have labored over them with a keen eye on the sacred worship that th eEucharistic liturgy is.
I am unable to go to Mass at some churches because the celebrant is so distracting by his histrionics or his insulting attempts to make the meaning of the Mass clearer by changing words, phrases, even eliminating entire prayers from the celebration. Is this HIS Mass? It boggles my mind…
Therefore, there is much to be done to re-create the the newer Mass according to some guidelines that stress to the priests the importance o remembering what the Mass is, and of the need to be in awe of the sacred when celebrating Mass.

That said, I do not think there should be a wholesale effort to bring back the Tridentine Mass and toss out the newer Mass. The TridentineMass certainly has a place of reverence, and should be available for any who seek that liturgical format. However, real effort must be put into making the newer Mass into a celebration of the sacred, done with deep reverence, and a prayerful participaiton by the celebrant and the congregation. The celebrant is the key.

It is the Holy Father’s desire to have the worship of our Holy God to be carried out in ways befitting Him. Thus, he has encouraged use of that format. In itself, it is sacrosanct. Frankly, the Tridentine can be offered with as much casualness as the newer Mass, as anyone who was around years ago can attest. Priests were known for saying 15 minute Masses, having nice voices, being very grumpy while saying Mass, etc…I remember this, so must others…and I loved, and still do love, going to Mass

The Mass is worship by the faithful (ecclesia) hearing the Word, offering the bread and wine, having these simple items transubstantiated into the Living Lord, Jesus Christ, Who then takes all of the prayers and needs of the Church and offers them with Himself to the Father. He is the One through Whom we are able to come to the Father, in the Spirit. Jesus, then, comes to us in Communion, where He becomes food for our journeys in our lives.

The format can be either, or even something to be developed in the future, keeping all of the essentials, but some different format of ritual…what matters is that we prayerfully and reverently celebrate the Mass, offering and receiving what we need.

Don’t get lost arguing over what is of secondary importance.

Enough yapping for now…Let us love our God with our whole hearts…praise Him, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit…Amen

 

[JRKH]

I agree that the TLM and N.O. should co-exist.
They both have there own beauty and attraction.

Let’s promote both - celebrated correctly of course - equally.

James

 

[Curious_Jim]

Thanks for the reply JRKH…
I hope we can chat, again.
In Jesus’ Name,
Curious jim

 

[JimR-OCDS]

IMHO, I think the NO and TLM can coexist, but not at the parish
level.

The TLM, should be allowed at monasteries where the religious order has decided to use the TLM, and parishes where the majority of the parishioners prefer this Mass, but this must not include people from other parishes. It must be the decision of the parishioners of that parish to have the entire parish, follow the TLM.

So far, the only TLM in my area is an hour drive away and the people who attend are a split between parishioners and those traveling from outside.

At other parishes, there should not be a TLM at one Mass and an NO at all the others. I think it divides the community.

Jim

 

[Phemie]

At other parishes, there should not be a TLM at one Mass and an NO at all the others. I think it divides the community.

Jim

I don’t agree, having both the extraordinary & the ordinary form in the same parish would no more divide the community than having more than one Sunday Mass does. You’ll always find that there are those who only attend the anticipated Sunday Mass on Saturday, or those that only attend the Mass without singing or only attend the Mass with the choir. All perfectly valid personal choices just like the choice between attending the extraordinary vs the ordinary form.

 

[JRKH]

IMHO, I think the NO and TLM can coexist, but not at the parish
level.

The TLM, should be allowed at monasteries where the religious order has decided to use the TLM, and parishes where the majority of the parishioners prefer this Mass, but this must not include people from other parishes. It must be the decision of the parishioners of that parish to have the entire parish, follow the TLM.

So far, the only TLM in my area is an hour drive away and the people who attend are a split between parishioners and those traveling from outside.

At other parishes, there should not be a TLM at one Mass and an NO at all the others. I think it divides the community.

Jim

I too must repectfully disagree.
Why should there need to be a decision to go completely one way or another? To me this could prove to be more devisive, not less so, in those parishes where there is interest in the TLM.

Would you also think that a parish need to decide whether to have all guitar masses, or all traditional music? After all there are strong feelings on this issue as well.

You state that parishoners should decide which mass they want at their parish, but how is this to happen? Have most parishes encouraged, or even offered any kind of introduction to the EF? Not where I live they haven’t.
My guess is that in most areas the clergy are hoping that this just sort of dies away. The hard core TLM’rs will be forced to travel to find one, and the rest will simply attend the OF.
The problem with this is that some people who might find the EF to be to their liking will never find out because they simply follow along with the parish, and the parish ignores the EF unless it is forced.

The greatest and most unitive thing we can do for our parishes and diocese and church is to get past this adversarial attitude that pervades both sides of the issue. The EF is a valid form and so is the OF. Each has something to offer.

What really needs to happen is for more people to be exposed to the TLM so they can make up their own minds.

I apologize if some of the above sounds harsh. I do not intend it to be. I look forwrd to the day when the two forms stand side by side as equals in most parishes. In the meantime I will continue to attend dail mass across the street, and the TLM 35 minutes away.

God Bless
James

 

[JimR-OCDS]

How will the children of the parish be educated, according to the OF or the EF?

I believe splitting the parish between OF and EF is divisive, and not conducive toward a united community.

Sorry, I think there needs to be consistency in a parish.

Jim

 

[JRKH]

How will the children of the parish be educated, according to the OF or the EF?

The answer is Yes,
Children will learn what they are taught with Love. If the parents and others in authority embrace both forms the children will too. Children play more than one sport don’t they?
They learn more than one type of mathmatics don’t they?
Thinking that they cannot be taugth and grow to love both forms is selling our children short.

I believe splitting the parish between OF and EF is divisive, and not conducive toward a united community.

Sorry, I think there needs to be consistency in a parish.

Jim

If those with influence in the parish desire division there will be division. If they choose unity there will be unity. If they choose to move forward in Love there will be unity whether there is one form of Mass or Two.

Peace
James

 

[Curious_Jim]

I have to say that, having just joined this website yesterday, I am utterly amazed at the level of excitement about our faith among the members.
It is so refreshing. Despite some elementary disputes over liturgical format, there is a common respect for the importance of keeping our worship of God sacred and reverent.
I struggle so with casual attitudes toward these and related matters. I am thankful to find a group for whom our faith has a place of central importance.
I am so happy to see the numbers of new members expressing their desire to grow in their faith, their relationship with God, and to develop a deeper understanding of the place of the Church.
Thank You, oh Lord, for this website and all of those who are part of it…

 

[scylla]

How will the children of the parish be educated, according to the OF or the EF?

I believe splitting the parish between OF and EF is divisive, and not conducive toward a united community.

Sorry, I think there needs to be consistency in a parish.

Jim

I would answer Yes to this also.

The theology is the same, if we are faithful to Christ and the Church then we would educate the children with consistance and fidelity to His Church. There is no difference in teaching, just in form of the Sacrifice of the Mass.
Regardless of abuses in the practice, we should look at the authentic understanding of the faith and teach that to the children.

Regardless of the form of the Mass it is the same Sacrifice. So we teach the children the same. That is why it is perfectly acceptable to use a catechism from the turn of the century and with prudence use one from today, they teach the same faith.

Is the faith the same as it was handed down from the Apostles, of course, our faith doesn’t change just sometimes our form of practicing it.

Inconsistancy or division is only arrived when the Mass is misrepresented as not the Holy Sacrifice of Christ and just a gathering of people. Unity is arrived by representing the Mass with its universal meaning.

God Bless
Scylla

 

[peary]

[Edited by Moderator]

**Good article in last month’s Homiletic & Pastoral Review titled “Messing with the Mass: The problems of priestly narcissism today.” (Nobember 2007)

 

[Mickey_Jackson]

I’ve never been to a Tridentine Mass, but I have seen videos, and the aesthetic details truly are incredible.

That said, we must always, always, always, always always remember that the true beauty, the true sublimity of the Mass exists not in the “accidents” of a particular rite, but in the fact that it is the One Sacrifice of Christ on the Cross, made present here and now. When we approach the altar, we approach the Cross. This is true whether you attend the Novus Ordo, the Tridentine rite, or the Eastern Divine Liturgy.

Of course, because of sacredness of what the Mass is, every rite must be celebrated with reverence and in accord with the norms set forth by the Church. I think that if the bishops had been more assertive in preventing liturgical abuse in the NO, far fewer people would feel the need to join such semi-schismatic organizations as the SSPX.

Every Catholic should read the Vatican II decree on the sacred liturgy. It really is enlightening (and no, it does NOT say anything about “Clown Masses,” “Folk Masses,” etc.!)

Pax vobis!

 

[Rabbititus]

How will the children of the parish be educated, according to the OF or the EF?

I believe splitting the parish between OF and EF is divisive, and not conducive toward a united community.

Sorry, I think there needs to be consistency in a parish.

Jim

They should be educated in both. The texts of the ordinary aren’t that different between the two. Learning the Latin of the EF will certainly help implement the council’s desire that everyone know their parts of the ordinary and the simpler chants in Latin - most of which carry over to the OF.

And after the new English translation of the OF is implemented, and perhaps if it is reformed a bit to conform to traditional practices (as I think will likely happen in upcoming years) - the gap between the two forms will close a bit and it’ll be easier to see the relationship between the two.

Personally, I’d love it if almost all parishes offered both - I’d love to have easy access to both forms, and would likely attend both.

 

[KathleenElsie]

How will the children of the parish be educated, according to the OF or the EF?

I believe splitting the parish between OF and EF is divisive, and not conducive toward a united community.

Sorry, I think there needs to be consistency in a parish.

Jim

Our children and grandchildren have been educated on bother rites. In fact they are also being educated on the other Eastern rites. No confusion they serve at three rites and so far have no problems with it. You don’t IMHO give our children enough credit as to their ability to learn many things.

The Pittsburgh Latin Mass is celebrated in a church that celebrates other rites. Why not allow others to choose? Our OF parish has three Masses. One on Saturday night (mostly working people and not as fussy) one at 9am (choir, bell but not smells most of the time mostly the older members of the parish) and one at 11:30am (no choir, maybe bells and never smells mostly families with younger children and those of us that slept in that day) so we do have Mass celebrated in three distinct ways already.

Consistency in a parish Mass form is a myth that we all want to believe in. Consistency in teaching the Faith and what it means should be the goal.

 

[WanderAimlessly]

IMHO, I think the NO and TLM can coexist, but not at the parish
level.

The TLM, should be allowed at monasteries where the religious order has decided to use the TLM, and parishes where the majority of the parishioners prefer this Mass, but this must not include people from other parishes. It must be the decision of the parishioners of that parish to have the entire parish, follow the TLM.

So far, the only TLM in my area is an hour drive away and the people who attend are a split between parishioners and those traveling from outside.

At other parishes, there should not be a TLM at one Mass and an NO at all the others. I think it divides the community.

The parish I go to has both forms not only on Sunday but during the week. Also, the OF Mass is celebrated Ad Orientum, with Chant, and parts in Latin. It is probably the closest that it could be to the EF that it can get.

 

[I_Believe]

How will the children of the parish be educated, according to the OF or the EF?

I believe splitting the parish between OF and EF is divisive, and not conducive toward a united community.

Sorry, I think there needs to be consistency in a parish.

Jim

That is where it should all start Jim, with the kids. They should be exposed to both forms. They will attend the Mass of their parents choice while they are young, but they need to be exposed to both forms. That way, they can choose for themselves as they get older.

Pope BXVI wants the Bishops to let him know how the TLM is doing in their diocese in three years. How is he going to get meaningful feedback on this issue if the NO priests don’t begin offering the TLM ?

A small parish of say, 150 members or less, that only offers a Sat. evening Mass and a 10 am Mass on Sunday, with no weekday Masses, then sure, having both forms wouldn’t work well.
But the larger parishes with Mass on weekdays and three or more Sunday Masses should offer both on a trial basis.

And you know what ? I’d bet that there would be no shortage of altar boys after a couple of years. I’ve got a hunch the TLM Mass would have more boys wanting to serve than needed, and the NO Mass would be there to welcome them. Rotating them would be a good thing imo. It would be wonderful for them to become familiar with both forms. The MP is a gift from our Holy Father. Having both forms at the same parish would present an unprecedented opportunity for our young boys to serve both forms. And that, imo, might just lead to an increase in interest in them vocation-wise

Again, the Holy Father has dispelled any myths, excuses, and obstacles to the revival of the TLM. He has given the clergy and the Faithful a wonderful gift. After much thought and enduring opposition from many Bishops, he has went ahead with this. Pope John Paul II unlocked the gate, and BXVI has pushed it open for all to come on in.

Telling those who want the TLM to go to a monastery or to form their own parish isn’t quite what the Holy Father has in mind. That’s like saying, “let’s ignore the MP and keep things as they were, with the indult-only restriction”.

Your opinion is as valid as mine Jim, but I’m with the Pope on this one.

 

[trobinson017]

I haven’t been to a Tridentine Mass yet but I can say that, as a child of the 60’s and, thus grew up the Novus Ordo Mass, that as a 43 yr old adult I crave the Latin Mass even though I’ve never actually attended one. I’ve been to NO Masses where parts were in Latin (Sanctus and Agnus Dei) and the people were so very, very reverent (some women wore veils). I felt so much more at home and at peace at those Masses than any other in my lifetime. Even so, those NO Masses to me are really pointing more and more to the Tridentine Mass where the things they borrow from it are truly and fully expressed, as I understand it from other postings on this forum. I guess I can’t determine that completely until I attend a Tridentine Mass (our local Cathedral has one at noon on Sundays) so my opinion isn’t substantiated. I intend to go to the TLM in the next couple of weeks (my family isn’t completely on board) and should be able to better understand the entire issue better then.

But for now, my heart leans to the TLM even though it only knows the NO.

Glory to GOD!!!

trob

 

[bkovacs]

I love the beauty and order of the Tridentine Mass. It has such rich music and ritual attached to it. It embodies the sacred. I had many oportunities to participate in sinnging Gregorian chant, classical Latin hymns written by masters.

I also see the wonderful community-oriented structure of the post Vatican II Mass.
Certainly, there is a serious problem that has come from the casual and impromptu styles of many celebrants. There is a serious assault on the sense of the sacred going on in many dioceses around this country, and probably elsewhere. It seems the priest-celebrant thinks he has better ways of expressing the prayers of the Mass than those experts who have labored over them with a keen eye on the sacred worship that th eEucharistic liturgy is.
I am unable to go to Mass at some churches because the celebrant is so distracting by his histrionics or his insulting attempts to make the meaning of the Mass clearer by changing words, phrases, even eliminating entire prayers from the celebration. Is this HIS Mass? It boggles my mind…
Therefore, there is much to be done to re-create the the newer Mass according to some guidelines that stress to the priests the importance o remembering what the Mass is, and of the need to be in awe of the sacred when celebrating Mass.

That said, I do not think there should be a wholesale effort to bring back the Tridentine Mass and toss out the newer Mass. The TridentineMass certainly has a place of reverence, and should be available for any who seek that liturgical format. However, real effort must be put into making the newer Mass into a celebration of the sacred, done with deep reverence, and a prayerful participaiton by the celebrant and the congregation. The celebrant is the key.

It is the Holy Father’s desire to have the worship of our Holy God to be carried out in ways befitting Him. Thus, he has encouraged use of that format. In itself, it is sacrosanct. Frankly, the Tridentine can be offered with as much casualness as the newer Mass, as anyone who was around years ago can attest. Priests were known for saying 15 minute Masses, having nice voices, being very grumpy while saying Mass, etc…I remember this, so must others…and I loved, and still do love, going to Mass

The Mass is worship by the faithful (ecclesia) hearing the Word, offering the bread and wine, having these simple items transubstantiated into the Living Lord, Jesus Christ, Who then takes all of the prayers and needs of the Church and offers them with Himself to the Father. He is the One through Whom we are able to come to the Father, in the Spirit. Jesus, then, comes to us in Communion, where He becomes food for our journeys in our lives.

The format can be either, or even something to be developed in the future, keeping all of the essentials, but some different format of ritual…what matters is that we prayerfully and reverently celebrate the Mass, offering and receiving what we need.

Don’t get lost arguing over what is of secondary importance.

Enough yapping for now…Let us love our God with our whole hearts…praise Him, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit…Amen

This is a perfect model parish of what the Holy Father desires. I believe!
cantius.org/

 

[bkovacs]

IMHO, I think the NO and TLM can coexist, but not at the parish
level.

The TLM, should be allowed at monasteries where the religious order has decided to use the TLM, and parishes where the majority of the parishioners prefer this Mass, but this must not include people from other parishes. It must be the decision of the parishioners of that parish to have the entire parish, follow the TLM.

So far, the only TLM in my area is an hour drive away and the people who attend are a split between parishioners and those traveling from outside.

At other parishes, there should not be a TLM at one Mass and an NO at all the others. I think it divides the community.

Jim

How about this parish as being a model for all parishes?.
cantius.org/

 

[JimR-OCDS]

How about this parish as being a model for all parishes?.
cantius.org/

It looks like a parish here in Massachusetts. They claim that the Latin Mass and reverence, is why they’re Masses are full.

However, such is not the case. Less than half of their parish members attend the Latin Mass. The rest, travel from outside their parish and even outside of their dioceses.

My guess is the parish you’ve linked is no different.

Combining the two forms of the Mass more than likely, has divided the parish into two communities and the TLM community is made up of equal if not more, non-members of the parish than members.

Human beings are essentially the same. Most prefer Mass in their own language, just as they prefer to watch TV or read a book in their own language.

Jim