Tridentine or Novus Ordo: Which is 'Older'?

[RyanML]

I’d use the original (Italian) text, and make the context known:
Gli studiosi penseranno a mettere in luce le fonti bibliche e liturgiche da cui derivano o alle quali sdi ispirano i nuovi testi, elaborati col cesello dai Gruppi di studio del “Consilium”. E diciamo pure che non di rado il lavoro è proceduto “cum timore et tremore” nel dover sacrificare espressioni e concetti tanto cari, e ormai per la lunga consuetudine familiari. Come non rimpiangere per esempio quel “ad sanctam matrem Ecclesiam catholicam atque apostolicam revocare dignetur” della settima orazione?

E tuttavia l’amore delle anime e il desiderio di agevolare in ogni modo il cammino dell’unione ai fratelli separati, rimovendo pietra che possa costituire pur lontamente un inciampo o motivo di disagio, hanno indotto la Chiesa anche a quei penosi sacrifici.
The last part is translated better as: “Love for souls and the desire to facilitate in every way the road to union with our separated brothers, by removing anything that could possibly constitute an impediment or make them feel ill at ease, has induced the Church to make even these painful sacrifices.” The change being referred to was the change in language of the Good Friday prayers, which (as the 1962 liturgy attests to) uses the terms “heretics” and “schismatics”.

Thank you for the correction. In context, in seems to show a less sinister Bugnini than is often portrayed in traditionalist circles.

 

[palmas85]

To discover the different forms/eras/histories of the Mass, and to dispel the notion that the Tridentine Mass is THE Traditional, correct form of the Mass. It is neither, historically.

Vivat Jesus
Tony

They pray tell us sir, what is? It is surely not the Pauline, so if not the Traditional then what?

 

[japhy]

Thank you for the correction. In context, in seems to show a less sinister Bugnini than is often portrayed in traditionalist circles.

You’re welcome. I’m no fan of Bugnini, trust me, but I just want to keep the playing field level.

 

[CradleCath]

You know the point of the thread. Its the same as it always is. These posters put forth the opinion that the Pauline Rite is closer to the original liturgies of the Church than is the Traditional Mass. They’ve trotted this horse out every so often since the early 70’s and it never works cause it just isn’t true.

And, as noted by another poster…what difference does the age of either Mass make, anyway? Which Mass is most faithful to the whole of the teachings of the Catholic Church…that is what matters.

 

[CradleCath]

The truth is, many of those involved in the liturgical innovations during and after the Council did so for ecumenical reasons. According to Fr. Annibale Bugnini (later Archbishop), the New Rite was

"to strip from our Catholic prayers and from the Catholic liturgy everything which can be the shadow of a stumbling block for our separated brethren, that is, for the Protestants.” (L’Osservatore Romano, March 19, 1965.)

 

[ProVobis]

What exactly about the first two centuries?

It would certainly be interesting to know how the SECOND Mass was celebrated.

 

[mercygate]

Absolutely. You’ll find that other changes in our prayers & liturgy have ecumenical reasons for being. It’s pretty much common knowledge that Catholic devotion to Mary seems to be a stumbling block for Protestants. The Church, througout the ages, has continued to honor her & ask for her assistence in prayer.
One of the most important documents of the Preparatory Commission to be approved by Vatican II was a whole document dedicated to** advance **

 

[ProVobis]

You know the math really isn’t that difficult. I too thought this was a strange thread, like asking if email is older than parchments.

Or if a pipe organ is older than a trumpet.

See what you started?

 

[mercygate]

Or if a pipe organ is older than a trumpet.

See what you started?

Yeah. The OP is a really ODD supposition.

 

[Sailka]

It would certainly be interesting to know how the SECOND Mass was celebrated.

                                                                                           One guess only!  Very much like the First, when Apostles tried their Apostolic powers.      AND, Masses today have the same  very  basic elements as Our Lord's "Last Supper".

Tony

 

[Sailka]

Or if a pipe organ is older than a trumpet.

See what you started?

Isn’t it fun to learn?

Tony

 

[Sailka]

They pray tell us sir, what is? It is surely not the Pauline, so if not the Traditional then what?

                                                                                           Betcha the Gregorian Mass of the West was considered 'traditional'  in the 7th Century!!    BUT, the word   or our language had not been invented yet!    Problems Problems!      When was  word Traditional invented?   :whistle: :dancing: :extrahappy:

Tony