Tridentine trouble

[stceolfrithtx]

I gained a deeper appreciation for the TLM watching the FSSP mass instructional DVD for priests, for example. And reading other books about the mass.

Do you have a link for the FSSP video?

If you’re used to having your attention (and this can be rather superficially) fixed to following along with the externals of the new liturgy… the extra freedom in the TLM gives you the ability to go more deeply into contemplating the sacrifice of Calvary… without being interrupted… once you have the feel for the entire flow of what is actually going on… and its meaning… which takes time, and reading…

I’m certainly more aware of meaning of the Mass than the average Joe-in-the-pews. Do you recommend Scott Hahn’s The Last Supper? I’m aware that he ties the Mass to a journey through the book of Revelation. What do you recommend for reading?

 

[stceolfrithtx]

If you’re coming from a place where you already have a very good regular Mass, then it stands to reason why you wouldn’t experience the sudden wonderment and sense of immediate relief that others describe.

I guess that makes sense. I’ve been free of the craziest abuses, we just get the light stuff like hand-holding, applause, and women at the foot washing rite during the Easter week. That sort of stuff. What you said actually makes a lot of sense, I sometimes get a bit frustrated, especially when I read about the craziness elsewhere. It makes me make MORE out of the light troubles I get locally and I get that kind of relief when I assist at the local Byzantine or Anglican use parish although they’re about a 45 minute drive for me.

When I’m late to my own parish, which is pretty good/alright, I have to go to another parish’s LifeTeen mass. It’s not the worst I’ve been to, but the music is just cringe-worthy. The funny thing: this one time a couple of weeks ago the music minister enjoined everyone to clap their hands at the closing song, after the Mass was ended…

…you’ve NEVER seen people stampede for the exits that quickly. I don’t think they even knew they were doing it; these are people who probably go to that Mass every week. I really do think people are looking for greater REVERENCE in liturgy!

 

[stceolfrithtx]

Embrace the challenge, this experience is going to force you to grow, sometimes growing is uncomfortable, persevere.

It sounds to me very much like you are trying to hard and so you are forgetting to pray.

This I can understand.

Mass isn’t about feelings, if you went there in search of some feeling then you are almost guaranteed to not get that feeling, the feeling comes from inside you or perhaps from God when you are fully engaged in praying the mass.

Yeah, even as I invoked my “feelings,” I chastised myself. But to be authentic, I had to leave it in.

Perhaps part of your problem is that you have been using Gregorian Chant for profane use and so now it does not have the spiritual association for you that it should have.

I’m a theology student, but you might be right. On the other hand Gregorian chant has been the smallest part of any EF Mass I’ve been to, even though I’m pretty sure at least one was a High Mass. No materials have been provided with the notation for the chanting, which I do know how to do. My college parish had a schola cantorum that led night prayer the four Sundays before Christmas and it is one of my favorite memories, going to those and chanting. (This was only a few years ago)

 

[Nowhere_Man]

I’m not sure what you mean. I am often on the wrong page. When it comes to a prayer for the laypeople to say, as soon as I can find it I’m able to read it with everyone else, if that’s what you mean.

I was just curious if you were able to follow along and pray with the priest, but it seems you aren’t which is perfectly alright; you’ll get there if you keep trying

I hope so. I’ve never even attended with someone who regularly, or ever, goes. This might be another hurdle, but it’s traditionally been my way. I visited Byzantine Divine Liturgy and the Anglican Use of the Roman rite alone when I first assisted at those masses, too. Do you recommend the Latin Novus Ordo as a way to ease into the Tridentine?

I learned on my own too. I did a lot of home study by watching a Tridentine Mass online and following along with an online missal.

Is the Missal you use for the Tridentine Mass one of those little red paper ones usually provided by TLM parishes? If not I would HIGHLY recommend using one of those instead of a full missal because full missals can be hard to navigate between the Propers and the Ordinary, where as the red ones have just the Ordinary and you can wait until the Proper finishes and pick-up from there, or print off the Propers and glance at them while they are being read and then go back to the red missal.

I wouldn’t really recommend going to a Latin Novus Ordo to help with learning the TLM because it’s just the NO Mass said in Latin; the prayers are fairly different as are the responses and gestures. If you are, however, having trouble with Latin pronunciation then it could be helpful with that.

The idea of just giving up, does feel wrong. Many saints of old, (the western ones, at least) came to love Christ through this rite. I do want to achieve that, but like you said, I feel like I’m having a panic attack just trying to guess what page I’m on.

When you start feeling horribly lost during Mass just put down the missal, calm down, watch the priest and his actions. and wait until you are at a point of the Mass where you know where you are and pick up from there.


A semi-instructional video of a TLM that I found helpful.

 

[StillWondering]

I came here to just give the other side of the story. There are a lot of talk about the beauty of the EF Mass. I just want to put out the beauty of the OF Mass. It’s beautiful because the Saints are there, the Angels are singing and Christ is there with us. It’s beautiful because of how God saves sinners such as us.

The stuff I listed isn’t exclusive to the OF Mass, but hey they are definitely there.

Mass is just so beautiful period. I love the readings, the gospels, the Liturgy of the Eucharist.

Each person is a bit different, but not too different. We are meant to see beauty because beauty comes from God, who is beauty itself. So if the OF Mass is beautiful for you, enjoy it and don’t fret. Just make sure it’s orthodox =).

 

[Shin]

Be more at peace and relaxed with it all. This is a contemplative consideration of the Passion… a contemplative mass… you don’t have to be so exact.

It is the priest who has to keep to the rubrics precisely and offers the mass, you as a lay person have few rubrics or requirements whatsoever, and are not essential.

The F.S.S.P. video is here, it’s a DVD purchase. I often find reading what priests are instructed about to deepen my understanding as a layman.

One starts to understand the spiritual reasons and deeper meanings behind the externals, overall and to a degree in particular.

As for books, I don’t recommend Scott Hahn, because he went off the reservation regarding the Holy Spirit, I haven’t read the book.

Let me think about the books that are best… I’m sure others will have some thoughts that way as well.

St. Alphonsus Maria de Liguori’s book, ‘The Holy Mass’ has given me a deeper appreciation of the meaning of sacrifice. Other books of his, meditating on Christ’s Passion are very helpful…

. . . there are many different missals, some people appreciate one more than another… a “Continuous” missal can be easier to begin with…

There’s a book by Fr. Lasance called ‘The Young Man’s Guide’ that has a sizable section of Mass Devotions that follow the mass, then Communion devotions… it can help one to copy one’s favorite prayers and pray them at particular points along the missal…

(Hmm, I think Lasance’s ‘Girl’s Guide’ has something similar too if you’re a lady.)

There are some good sermons on the liturgy in the links below.

Think of the mass as your opportunity to be present at Calvary and meditate upon His passion… you do not have to keep to the priest’s movements tic by tock, you will with study and regular attendance… become more and more aware to the flow of the mass…

In your mind you will have a flow of what is being done… Offertory… Canon… Consecration-Elevation…

You will see in your mind’s eye, not only the mass one earth, but also Heaven above with all the angels and saints and it’s link there and to Calvary… you will imagine incense… the gold chalice… the angel’s prayers along with the priest’s… the other masses throughout the world with the people joining in, like you… all linked to this one…

And you will see that the extent of your love, devotion, and offering of self and of the the sacrifice of the priest and Christ for us all… the purity of your intention… truly matters.

Try the sermons below on listed under ‘liturgy’.

I’ll think and pray about this further at mass God willing…

Tan has some books.

 

[DebChris]

One of the most recent books that I read is The Tradition of Catholic Prayer written by the monks of Saint Meinrad.
In the chapter on the Liturgy of the Eucharist it addresses the issue of the private Mass, a regular practice by the 10th century. These private Masses were the norm when the Council of Trent met. The Council of Trent contributed the Roman Missal establishing how the Mass was to be celebrated, that is the Tridentine Mass.
By this time, “while people continued to attend Mass, but they no longer participated at the Mass in the same way as they did in the early Church.” While the people remained reverent, many did say their own private prayers and devotions.
The Mass is meant to be a communal celebration, the reason I prefer the changes established by Vatican II to the Tridentine Mass. I do not understand Latin. I prefer to actively “pray the Mass” in my own language rather than silently following the Mass in my own prayer book.

I am not taking anything away from the Mass as celebrated for 400 years. Indeed I continue some of the practices I learned when the Tridentine Mass was the norm, reverent practices that are easily incorporated into any Mass that I attend including how to enter the church and my pew and the proper attitude upon receiving Holy Communion.

 

[lizaanne]

I wasn’t sure I wanted to post on this thread. There are many who see the beauty of the Tridentine Mass without looking at how the Mass has changed over the ages.
The bishops who gathered for Vatican II recognized that many people were not fully engaged in the Mass. Rather they had become spectators. The magisterium desired fuller participation by the laity. This was the reasoning behind the development of the OF now used. The essentials of the Mass remain while excess repetition was removed.
I don’t speak Latin. I enjoy Mass celebrated in my own language.

Excess repetition? There is excess in the Mass? Where do you find this, and what makes you think it is excessive? When you are in love with someone, how many times do you tell them you love them? Is it excessive? No - it is what people in love do. And in the Mass we are telling Christ how much we love Him. There is no such thing as excess in the EF. And I attend the OF almost exclusively - but I sure do hate hearing folks bash on the EF (or even vice-versa).

Both Masses are valid. Both Masses bring us Jesus in the Eucharist. Neither one is better or worse than the other - when presented properly and reverently. You may prefer one over the other, but to say that one form of the Mass is “excessive” is divisive, totally in error, and unnecessary.

Excess indeed.

~Liza

 

[DebChris]

Excess repetition? There is excess in the Mass? Where do you find this, and what makes you think it is excessive? When you are in love with someone, how many times do you tell them you love them? Is it excessive? No - it is what people in love do. And in the Mass we are telling Christ how much we love Him. There is no such thing as excess in the EF. And I attend the OF almost exclusively - but I sure do hate hearing folks bash on the EF (or even vice-versa).

Both Masses are valid. Both Masses bring us Jesus in the Eucharist. Neither one is better or worse than the other - when presented properly and reverently. You may prefer one over the other, but to say that one form of the Mass is “excessive” is divisive, totally in error, and unnecessary.

Excess indeed.

~Liza

My statement comes directly from the Vatican II documents.

 

[lizaanne]

My statement comes directly from the Vatican II documents.

Please provide the source. Link please?

~Liza

 

[ProVobis]

I enjoy Mass celebrated in my own language.

This sounds like a self-serving argument. Do you mean you won’t go to Mass unless it’s done on YOUR terms?

 

[ProVobis]

I don’t speak Latin. I enjoy Mass celebrated in my own language.

But how are you going to be able to recognize it unless you’re exposed to it? Reinforcement of your own vernacular isn’t exactly going to “expand your horizons.”

 

[Dempsey1919]

I know exactly how you feel. When I began attending the Extraordinary Form, I found it extremely difficult to follow along and most of the time I was unable to do so. After a few months, the beauty of the Tridentine Mass began to unfold before my eyes. Once I understood the structure of the EF Mass fully, I was able to participate in the Mass at a far deeper level than ever before. Although it may be challenging, I encourage you to stick with it. When you are able to pray along with the priest without difficulty, you will find that Mass becomes a truly contemplative experience. The great thing about the Old Mass is that you are able to truly pray at Mass; you needn’t worry about memorising the responses or saying the prayers audibly. Take the Virgin Mary as your role model; kneel with the Blessed Mother at the foot of the Cross and prayerfully participate in the Sacrifice of the Mass.

 

[Milesius]

The idea of just giving up, does feel wrong. Many saints of old, (the western ones, at least) came to love Christ through this rite. I do want to achieve that, but like you said, I feel like I’m having a panic attack just trying to guess what page I’m on.

Do yourself a favour and go a couple of times without your missal and just pray from the heart.

When not at mass study the mass, as I said before particularly the movements of the priest for both low and high mass,

 

[Dempsey1919]

I prefer the changes established by Vatican II to the Tridentine Mass

What changes did Vatican II establish? Mass in the vernacular? Communion in the hand? The abandonment of Gregorian Chant? Mass facing the people? Altar girls?

Vatican II did not call for the OF Mass. In fact, many elements of the OF Mass go against Vatican II. The New Mass has nothing to do with Vatican II. The OF Mass was the creation of one man, Archbishop Anibale Bugnini. The liturgical reforms of this man represent a rupture in the Roman rite; the new Mass was an on the spot creation, an entirely new fabrication. It irritates me when people claim that the OF Mass is the Mass of Vatican II. A a quick reading of Sacrosanctum Concilium will prove that it is not.

 

[DebChris]

I do not have “links” to the Vatican Documents. What I do have is a copy of the book.
I was reluctant to post on this thread. I do understand the experience of the OP. As already stated, I was born into the Church when the Tridentine Mass was the norm. I have brought much of what I learned during that time into my current worship.
In citing The Constitution on the Sacred Liturgy, I begin with Ch 1, III, 23. “there must be no innovations unless the good of the church genuinely and certainly requires them, and care must be taken that any new forms adopted should in some way grow organically from forms already existing.”

7. …In the liturgy the sanctification of women and men is given expression in symbols perceptible by the senses and is cared out in ways appropriate to each of them. In it, complete and definitive public worship is performed by the mystical body of Jesus Christ, that is, by the Head and his members…
21…the liturgy is made up of unchangeable elements divinely instituted, and of elements subject to change…
26. Liturgical services are not private functions but are celebrations of the church which is “the sacrament of unity,” namely, the holy people united and organized under their bishops."
Therefore, liturgical services have to do with the whole body, the church. They make it visible and have effects on it. But they also touch individual members of the church in different ways, depending on ranks, roles and level of participation.
34 The rites should radiate a noble simplicity. They should be short, clear, and free from useless repetition. They should be within the people’s comprehension, and normally should not require much explanation.
Ch. 2, 50 The rite of the Mass is to be revised in such a way that the intrinsic nature and purpose of its several parts, as well as the connection between them, may be more clearly shown, and that devout and active participation by the faithful may be more easily achieved.
To this end, the rites are to be simplified, due care being taken to preserve their substance. Duplications made with the passage of time are to be omitted, as are less useful additions. Other parts which were lost through the vicissitudes of history are to be restored according to the ancient tradition of the holy Fathers, as may seem appropriate or necessary.
50 The treasures of the bible are to be opened up more lavishly so that a richer fare may be provided for the faithful at the table of God’s word…

One of the most conservative priests that I know, a former pastor (now retired), spent a full homily delineating the differences between his experience with the Tridentine Mass and the Ordinary Form celebrated today. He included in his description recent participation in the Tridentine Mass at a nearby church, the difficulty with Latin, and the strict adherence to the number of times a specific action needed to be performed. This priest is a real stickler when it comes to laity and those who serve on the altar adhering to rubrics.

 

[lizaanne]

34 The rites should radiate a noble simplicity. They should be short, clear,** and free from useless repetition.** They should be within the people’s comprehension, and normally should not require much explanation.

In no way whatsoever does this mean that the TLM had any “useless repetition” as you alluded to previously. This ONLY means that “useless repetition” should not be made part of the Mass.

Words mean things. And when people read someone who lists themselves as Catholic saying that the Vatican “said” that the TLM uses “useless repetition” it is misleading and very much in error.

~Liza

 

[MarkThompson]

EDIT: Never mind, I didn’t see that this thread carried over to this page.

 

[RoryMcKenzie56]

I often hear people gush about the beauty of the Tridentine rite, but between three experiences with this Mass, I haven’t experienced what people say it’s supposed to be like. I feel like I must be the FURTHEST THING from a Saint if I don’t see the beauty and can’t actively participate in this Mass by keeping my attention, etc.

I don’t know what to do. I’ve assisted at three Tridentine masses (one by the FSSP) and I can’t follow along, I always feel almost frustrated enough to leave. At least one of these was a High Mass. It felt like attending a concert of some sort. I’ve always considered myself traditional and it bothers me that I don’t have the patience for this, at least yet.

VERY IMPORTANT I’m not against Latin. In fact I can follow along with audible Latin words and I have good pronunciation. I LOVE Gregorian chant. I listen to it when I study. I just can’t SEE the beauty that EF lovers gush about in the Tridentine mass. I don’t feel elevated to heaven and while the priest mumbles, my mind wanders. What do I do? I understand now why so many old ladies used to say a Rosary during Mass!

I would suggest that if you were going to the Ordinary Form for the first time, having never said the responses, without a missalette in front of you that gave you all the propers for the day, you might find yourself following with difficulty too. Should someone going to an Ordinary Form feel frustration if they didn’t know exactly when to kneel and stand and all the responses? Of course not. Does God expect everyone who assists at a Mass they have no experience with to be immediately skilled in following along? I think your expectations are unreasonable and your admitted frustration stems from that unreasonable expectation. You expect more of yourself than God or the people around you.

It seems like you want to gain an appreciation. You compared it to a concert. That seems an apt comparison in one respect at least. Who appreciates great music the first time as much as they do with repeated llistenings? Even after having assisted at virtually nothing else for over five years, every Mass is subjectively different. If I am unable to concentrate on the words, I will put down the missal and do something else, especially in the silent moments. Also, the priest is not mumbling; he is obediently whispering while we wait. This is what faithful Jews did when the high priest went alone into the Holy of holies once a year on the Day of Atonement, foreshadowing the Holy Sacrifice that in our age occurs daily on altars the world over. This is a precedent for why the words are intended to be inaudible in the Extraordinary Form.

Of course the Church provides the words for us. But if they are hard to follow, we don’t get upset. If we were obligated to scrupulously attend to each individual word the Church would have made the prayers audible. I often find myself meditating on a theme from the prayers which grabs my attention while the priest continues the liturgy. It would seem that you would probably not allow yourself such a liberty.

The Extraordinary Form allows for differing ways of participation in the Mass and has never denigrated the idea that one can pray by observing the actions of the priest (ignoring your missal), observing the significance of his actions while at the same time taking note of the moments when bells ring out of the silence to take special note of something especially grand. It is okay if we remain lost in wonder at the Consecration which occurred a couple of minutes before, when abruptly and briefly, the priest raises his voice with “Nobis quoque peccatoribus” to remind us that while we are hopefully united with him at the altar, he is assuredly united with us as poverty-stricken sinners.

We are holding vigil during these moments when Father is whispering. Especially during this time, it is not inappropriate should one wish to pray for the Pope, our priest, our loved ones, for the conversion of sinners, for all the faithful and the Church, or for the poor souls in purgatory in a way that isn’t outlined in the Missal. Why would it be wrong to keep vigil at this time while reciting a few decades of the Rosary? The important point isn’t to slavishly follow every word that is uttered in a foreign language. This is part of what I don’t like about the clamoring for the vernacular. The desire for vernacular seems based on the very problem you are having. Inability to follow the words and a false belief that this is the only way to worthily participate. The Church clearly hasn’t taught that following each word is as important as presenting ourselves before God, spiritually offering acts of faith in unity with the priest who turns from us to speak directly to God on our behalf.

The Church gives us more liberty in our experience at Mass than the Ordinary Form would lead one to believe. Unless you are speaking out loud, you have to some degree, failed at the Ordinary Form. I guess if you are like my Dad was before he died, too bad if you are deaf. No, we learn from the Mass of the Ages that there is more than one way for the faithful to pleasingly assist at Holy Mass to the benefit of our souls and the glory of God. I suspect I am heading for deafness myself if I last another twenty years. I am relieved I don’t have to hear every word and follow every word, looking forward to frustration at inability to respond. Those coming from the Novus Ordo tend to want to bring a rigorous attention to words that may be warranted in the Ordinary Form, and while such attention is certainly valuable in the Extraordinary Form as well, it isn’t necessarily the only way to participate in the Holy Mysteries.

A Blessed Lord’s Day to you,

Rory

 

[DebChris]

In no way whatsoever does this mean that the TLM had any “useless repetition” as you alluded to previously. This ONLY means that “useless repetition” should not be made part of the Mass.

Words mean things. And when people read someone who lists themselves as Catholic saying that the Vatican “said” that the TLM uses “useless repetition” it is misleading and very much in error.

~Liza

50 The treasures of the bible are to be opened up more lavishly so that a richer fare may be provided for the faithful at the table of God’s word…
This presents one of the main reasons I prefer the NO over the old. I do not know anybody who dislikes the bells that “signal when something important is about to happen.” (The Tradition of Catholic Prayer) I look forward to their ringing at Easter.

I did use the words, “excess repetition” in my first post. Since I am not a part of the magisterium, it was not my role to differentiate between the essential and non-essential elements of the Mass, or those parts considered repetitious.
It was the Council’s desire that the laity more fully participate in the Liturgy. I do know that with the priest facing the congregation, I am more readily drawn into the Sacrifice of the Mass. I am not a merely a spectator.

While I knew that the Mass had changed orientation over the centuries, it is only when reading the book by the monks of Saint Meinrad that I learned it was the prevalence of private Masses that led to the priest celebrating the Mass with his back to the congregation.
Although Abbey Press has gone out of business, if you are able to find a copy, I highly recommend The Tradition of Catholic Prayer to anybody interested in how Christian prayer has changed and developed over time. It is an excellent overview that begins with Old Testament prayer, addresses the necessity of boldness during Apostolic times, monastic development, pilgrimages, the Reformation and Counter-Reformation, and ends with modern times when we can see beautiful video images that aid prayer.

Discussions of differences between the Mass as celebrated before and after Vatican II often become heated, the reason for my reluctance to even post on this thread. I did want the OP to know that he is not alone in not feeling what those enamored with the Tridentine Mass describe. I have always loved the Mass. During the short period that I attended parochial school I looked forward to daily Mass. Yes, it was the TLM. I find even more richness in the ordinary form of the Mass.