Tridentine trouble

[Aramis]

I often hear people gush about the beauty of the Tridentine rite, but between three experiences with this Mass, I haven’t experienced what people say it’s supposed to be like.

I’ve assisted at about a dozen Dominican Rite masses… one of the other forms of the Roman Mass besides the EF and OF…

And for me, it’s not an uplifiting experience, either. Nor, for that matter, is the OF… But beside the EF and OF, jointly the Roman Rite, there are 5 other major rites (Alexandrian aka Coptic, Antiochean aka West Syrian, Assyro-Chaldean aka East Syrian, Armenian, and Constantinopolitan/Byzantine) , plus the half dozen+ other minor western rites (Dominican, Carmelite, Carthusian, Bragan, Mozarabic, Ambrosian, Dalmatian), and the Ethiopian Rite (which is technically part of the Alexandrian Rite…).

Examine the Eastern Catholic Churches in union with Rome… Tradition lives on in many of the Eastern Rites, and in most parishes thereof. You may just find what it is you’re looking for.

You might also look for a Latin OF mass…

 

[ProVobis]

The Novus Ordo title is name applied to any new missale (I believe and watch my spelling). It is often used on these forums in a negative and disdainful manner. The proper term is the Ordinary Form.

The Latin expression Novus Ordo Missae was never intended to be derogative. However, when it was translated as the NO Mass its supporters got offended. Why is it that when so many things get translated into English they become offensive and start wars? I’ve heard this from translations other than Latin too. Maybe there’s a deeper message here.

You might also look for a Latin OF mass…

Good suggestion.

 

[ProVobis]

Maybe this is the same reason people do not like the OF

Probably not as typically the OF is all around us and it’s difficult to avoid altogether. (Not that you should, I’m just saying.) Almost every parish, movies, news, EWTN has it or shows it all the time. With the EF, it’s much more difficult to find.

 

[crazzeto]

I often hear people gush about the beauty of the Tridentine rite, but between three experiences with this Mass, I haven’t experienced what people say it’s supposed to be like. I feel like I must be the FURTHEST THING from a Saint if I don’t see the beauty and can’t actively participate in this Mass by keeping my attention, etc.

I don’t know what to do. I’ve assisted at three Tridentine masses (one by the FSSP) and I can’t follow along, I always feel almost frustrated enough to leave. At least one of these was a High Mass. It felt like attending a concert of some sort. I’ve always considered myself traditional and it bothers me that I don’t have the patience for this, at least yet.

VERY IMPORTANT I’m not against Latin. In fact I can follow along with audible Latin words and I have good pronunciation. I LOVE Gregorian chant. I listen to it when I study. I just can’t SEE the beauty that EF lovers gush about in the Tridentine mass. I don’t feel elevated to heaven and while the priest mumbles, my mind wanders. What do I do? I understand now why so many old ladies used to say a Rosary during Mass!

Don’t feel like you’re missing out by going to OF if that’s where you feel like you can best focus on the Mass and what is happening there. Personally I loved the Tridentine Mass, even though I also felt a little lost with my first experience there. For me, I intend to keep going and intend to have a misslett ready for my next experience.

Perhaps for your part, OF is where you need to be. Don’t get caught up in the opinions of some regarding EF… Yes it’s truely wonderful, yes it’s pleaseing to the Lord, yes it’s our Heretage. But the Spirit led the Church with Vatican II, and I beleive he lead Pope Paul XI when OF was first instituted. We do need it, because it is more natural for people today to worship in the Venacular.

Continue growing in your faith at OF, God bless!

 

[ProVobis]

We do need it, because it is more natural for people today to worship in the Venacular.

This is what Cardinal Arinze says about that.

"…It is a remarkable phenomenon that many religions of the world, or major branches of them, hold on to a language as dear to them. We cannot think of the Jewish religion without Hebrew. Islam holds Arabic as sacred to the Qur’an. Classical Hinduism considers Sanskrit its official language. Buddhism has its sacred texts in Pali.

It would be superficial to dismiss this tendency as esoteric, or strange, or outmoded, old or medieval. That would be to ignore a fine element of human psychology. In religious matters, people tend to hold on to what they received from the beginning, how their earliest predecessors articulated their religion and prayed. Words and formulae used by earlier generations are dear to those who today inherit from them. While a religion is of course not identified with a language, how it understands itself can have an affective link with a particular linguistic expression in its classical period of growth…"

vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/ccdds/documents/rc_con_ccdds_doc_20061111_gateway-conference_en.html

 

[doanli]

I get lost all of the time but I just enjoy the reverence and sanctity of it.

 

[crazzeto]

This is what Cardinal Arinze says about that.

vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/ccdds/documents/rc_con_ccdds_doc_20061111_gateway-conference_en.html

I appriciate your enthusism ProVobis, and I certainly appriciate the Trindentine Mass and Latin as the universal language of the Church. But this doesn’t negate the teachings of the Council, or the supreme Pontiff.

I would say this, if one can go to the EF and not be distracted to the point of not even being aware of what it is theyre doing there, then sure you should experience it more and more and hopefully grow in it. But it seems to me that the case here is that the OP is so distracted he’s really not in the Mass, rather he’s on the outside spending all his time trying to figure out the Mass rather than just focusing on Christ.

You can pull as many quotes, by as many Cardinals as you wish, but if this is the case then what we have is a very serious problem. The lay worshiper isn’t focused on Christ, he isn’t focused on our part in the sacrafice of the Mass. Would you truely consider that worship?

Right now isn’t the best time for the OP to be attending an EF Mass, rather I would suggest he should personally attend OF regularly, certainly for all holy days of obligation. I would also suggest to the OP that perhaps he take a time out to try and learn some more about the EF, see if you can become more aquainted and comfortable with the fantastic and reverent worship offered there. That way when he does come back to it, he’ll actually be able to worship the Lord, rather than being out the outside trying to figure out the mechanics of the Mass.

After all, the Mass is about the Holy Sacrafice, it’s about offering God right worship. One can’t be so caught up in legalism as to pretend that only the EF style of Mass is appropriate, this fly’s utterly in the face of what the Mass even is, and it’s own history (including the very history of the Tidentine Mass!).

 

[ProVobis]

I appriciate your enthusism ProVobis, and I certainly appriciate the Trindentine Mass and Latin as the universal language of the Church. But this doesn’t negate the teachings of the Council, or the supreme Pontiff.

But that’s exactly my point. Latin is part of the teachings of the Council and also the Pope who promulgated the New Mass in 1969:

But, in any case, the new rite of the Mass provides that the faithful “should be able to sing together, in Latin, at least the parts of the Ordinary of the Mass, especially the Creed and the Lord’s Prayer, the Our Father” (Sacrosanctum Concilium n. 19).

1. But, let us bear this well in mind, for our counsel and our comfort: the Latin language will not thereby disappear. It will continue to be the noble language of the Holy See’s official acts; it will remain as the means of teaching in ecclesiastical studies and as the key to the patrimony of our religious, historical and human culture. If possible, it will reflourish in splendor.

No where in Vatican documents will you find that the all-vernacular all-the-time Mass has been mandated.

 

[crazzeto]

But that’s exactly my point. Latin is part of the teachings of the Council and also the Pope who promulgated the New Mass in 1969:

No where in Vatican documents will you find that the all-vernacular all-the-time Mass has been mandated.

Perhaps, of course what you’re pointing out right now is more of an “on the ground” issue… That is, one must get the local parishes to do this. Regardless of all the abuses which happend due to a hijacking of Vactican II, you can’t claim there is anything fundmentally wrong with OF, and exhorting someone who is having a bad time with the EF to just keep going anyway is crazy.

I would suggest it is superior to let them worship in the enviornment in which they truely can worship, in a well put together mass which is living the true spirit of magesterial teaching. Just because you and I prefer Latin Mass, we can’t just assume it’s what is best for everyone, and certainly we can’t assume that just any given Catholic should be able to go from OF to EF and not exerpeince some problems.

My suggestion remains, this OP should continue worshiping in OF for now. Now it seems to me that the OP has a genuine desire to experience the most acient form of worship. Given this, I would exhort the OP to see if he can’t find a daily EF he can go to every once in a while, get his toes wet. I would suggest to the OP looking for a good 1962 missal, and see if you can’t talk to more knowlegeable folks (about the EF) and pose the questions he has to them. I might recommend Fr. Adrian Fortescue’s The Mass: A Study of Roman Liturgy which will certainly really open up the EF to him.

Perhaps then, he can make a return to EF for holy days of obligation, only now fully prepared and ready to focus his full attention on the Holy Sacrafice of the Mass, rather than “do I sit? stand? kneel? what do I say now? Why are we saying that and what does it mean?”.

 

[Frosty]

No where in Vatican documents will you find that the all-vernacular all-the-time Mass has been mandated.

1. But since the use of the mother tongue, whether in the Mass, the administration of the sacraments, or other parts of the liturgy, frequently may be of great advantage to the people, the limits of its employment may be extended. This will apply in the first place to the readings and directives, and to some of the prayers and chants, according to the regulations on this matter to be laid down separately in subsequent chapters.

1. These norms being observed, it is for the competent territorial ecclesiastical authority mentioned in Art. 22, 2, to decide whether, and to what extent, the vernacular language is to be used; their decrees are to be approved, that is, confirmed, by the Apostolic See. And, whenever it seems to be called for, this authority is to consult with bishops of neighboring regions which have the same language.

I agree that nowhere is an all vernacular Mass mandated. However as the above quote from Sacrosanctum Concillium states, the competent authorities may decide to what extent the vernacular is to be used. Why is this part of the document so often left out in discussions like this? It’s obvious that the “competent authorities” world wide felt that it was in the best interests of their flocks to have an all vernacular Mass and the Apostolic See approved. This wasn’t going against or disregarding the Concilliar document at all.
How do you know how it was implemented in all the dioceses of the world? In my own diocese, the only one that I am somewhat competent to talk about, it happened slowly. Polls were taken in each parish,sanctioned by the Archbishop, to gauge how people were responding to the changes. The results were always printed in the diocesan newspaper The majority were very happy to see less and less Latin. The final decision was left up to the pastors. Just as it is today.

 

[Nowhere_Man]

I appriciate your enthusism ProVobis, and I certainly appriciate the Trindentine Mass and Latin as the universal language of the Church. But this doesn’t negate the teachings of the Council, or the supreme Pontiff.

I would say this, if one can go to the EF and not be distracted to the point of not even being aware of what it is theyre doing there, then sure you should experience it more and more and hopefully grow in it. But it seems to me that the case here is that the OP is so distracted he’s really not in the Mass, rather he’s on the outside spending all his time trying to figure out the Mass rather than just focusing on Christ.

You can pull as many quotes, by as many Cardinals as you wish, but if this is the case then what we have is a very serious problem. The lay worshiper isn’t focused on Christ, he isn’t focused on our part in the sacrafice of the Mass. Would you truely consider that worship?

Right now isn’t the best time for the OP to be attending an EF Mass, rather I would suggest he should personally attend OF regularly, certainly for all holy days of obligation. I would also suggest to the OP that perhaps he take a time out to try and learn some more about the EF, see if you can become more aquainted and comfortable with the fantastic and reverent worship offered there. That way when he does come back to it, he’ll actually be able to worship the Lord, rather than being out the outside trying to figure out the mechanics of the Mass.

After all, the Mass is about the Holy Sacrafice, it’s about offering God right worship. One can’t be so caught up in legalism as to pretend that only the EF style of Mass is appropriate, this fly’s utterly in the face of what the Mass even is, and it’s own history (including the very history of the Tidentine Mass!).

Would you suggest the same to a Protestant convert, (except switch “EF Mass” with “OF Mass” and “OF Mass” with “Protestant service”), or would you encourage them to keep going until they get the hang of it and are able to understand what’s going on? As a convert to the Catholic Faith from a non-denominational ecclesial community I can tell you that, for me, it was MUCH harder for me to pick up the OF coming from a Protestant background, than it was for me to pick up the EF with about a year of going to the OF. I am of course NOT saying it works this way for everyone, its just some insight.

 

[ProVobis]

I would suggest it is superior to let them worship in the enviornment in which they truely can worship, in a well put together mass which is living the true spirit of magesterial teaching.

But how can you worship in the best possible way in an environment where everyday conversational language, everyday gestures, and secular music are used? I would think prayer and worship should be something that stands out from the rest of your life and should be something very special in anyone’s life. If one treats Mass as a casual event that’s no different than his neighborhood block party, then something went wrong somewhere. What else needs to be said?

 

[crazzeto]

Would you suggest the same to a Protestant convert, (except switch “EF Mass” with “OF Mass” and “OF Mass” with “Protestant service”), or would you encourage them to keep going until they get the hang of it and are able to understand what’s going on? As a convert to the Catholic Faith from a non-denominational ecclesial community I can tell you that, for me, it was MUCH harder for me to pick up the OF coming from a Protestant background, than it was for me to pick up the EF with about a year of going to the OF. I am of course NOT saying it works this way for everyone, its just some insight.

No, but then again the OF Mass does in fact do everything that the EF Mass does, whilst a protestant service certainly can’t do that in any licit manner, and most typically can’t do at all period. This is a very big difference, which sort of stands what you’re trying to say on it’s head.

A Catholic going to OF Mass is getting the same graces as a Catholic attending EF. In this case your over prioratizing form, which is quite dangerous particularly when you consider our Eastern Brethern hardly use the Trinitine Mass either.

One should attend a Mass which has, in form, been approved by the Teaching Body of the Church. OF meets this requirement, protestant services (regardless of the rare case of valid orders with in) do not.

 

[crazzeto]

But how can you worship in the best possible way in an environment where everyday conversational language, everyday gestures, and secular music are used? I would think prayer and worship should be something that stands out from the rest of your life. If one treats Mass as a casual event that’s no different than his neighborhood block party, then something went wrong somewhere. What else needs to be said?

What secular music is used in a OF Mass? Perhaps there are those instances of abuse where it has happend, but these are the exception and not the rule for OF. Are you referring to the handshake currently encouraged durring the sign of peace in OF? Something which as I understand it, may be revised with the new Missal? This is a culturally appropriate method of communicating the intentions of that moment in the liturgy, originally it was a kiss which at the time it was instituted, was in fact an every day guesture much like a handshake is today.

I think you have a rather unfair view of the OF, and you should perhaps go out and experience some more OF masses at good parishes before you attempt to condem it. Do you see Pope Benedict XVI, a huge supporter of EF, trying put an end to the OF? No, you see no real movement from anywhere in the Magesterium to end it. It’s here to stay, because it fulfills the needs of the Church today. The OP is very much in the right to ease in to EF… They would even be in the right not to ever attend EF ever again, I think that would be sad personally as EF has something in terms of history and tradition which OF is lacking. But then again, it isn’t history and tradition that saves.

 

[ProVobis]

I think you have a rather unfair view of the OF, and you should perhaps go out and experience some more OF masses at good parishes before you attempt to condem it.

This is an unfair accusation. I am not condemning it. I have spent the better part of 30 years attending OF Masses in many parishes, many cities, in Latin and in Vietnamese, Polish, Italian, and Spanish vernaculars. I have heard great classical music, traditional hymns, guitar music, and piano music in churches. I have personally witnessed liturgical choreography and other what you call abuses and didn’t feel so shocked as many others in this forum. And I don’t consider myself a traditionalist so I really don’t understand your point.

 

[PA650]

Most definitely. I pray for my Diocese every day; especially since we are soon to be appointed a new Archbishop.

Overall, I do not find things down here as hindered as they may be in WA. Moreover, our Archbishop has a few more years in his current position.

 

[DebChris]

Don’t feel like you’re missing out by going to OF if that’s where you feel like you can best focus on the Mass and what is happening there. Personally I loved the Tridentine Mass, even though I also felt a little lost with my first experience there. For me, I intend to keep going and intend to have a misslett ready for my next experience.

Perhaps for your part, OF is where you need to be. Don’t get caught up in the opinions of some regarding EF… Yes it’s truely wonderful, yes it’s pleaseing to the Lord, yes it’s our Heretage. But the Spirit led the Church with Vatican II, and I beleive he lead Pope Paul VI when OF was first instituted. We do need it, because it is more natural for people today to worship in the Venacular.

Continue growing in your faith at OF, God bless!

I like this post. The TLM is part of our heritage.
The Mass throughout the ages has changed and developed. The essential elements remain. There was controversy when Latin (the Vulgate) was first chosen to replace Greek in order that the ordinary person could understand the Mass.
The Kyrie continued to be recited in Greek during the TLM.

While the Confiteor may remain in the OF, we know longer strike our breast three times saying “mea culpa, mea culpa, mea maxima culpa.” This is one instance where the Magisterium chose to remove redundancy, and the prayer simplified. I have listened to priests trained in the TLM speak of other repetitive actions, but have chosen not to allow this post to digress further in that direction. Yes, I know the Confiteor is not always included in the OF, but I like that it is becoming more commonly recited as part of the penitential rite. “I confess to Almighty God and to you, my brothers and sisters…” I just found on-line that the Confiteor was composed in the 8th century and did not become a part of the Mass until the 11th century.

Monastery Greetings offers a CD from the Trappist Monks of the LaTroun monastery that combines Gregorian Chant, the earliest form of Western music, with the Syriac Maronite Liturgy, probably the earliest Christian liturgy. If we wanted to continue back in time, we could go to the Aramaic in which Jesus taught. Then again, it is not a language I understand. I think it is beautiful that Mass can be offered 15 times every weekend in 8 different languages at the church where I worship when I return to the Persian Gulf.

 

[Nowhere_Man]

I like this post. The TLM is part of our heritage.
The Mass throughout the ages has changed and developed. The essential elements remain. There was controversy when Latin (the Vulgate) was first chosen to replace Greek in order that the ordinary person could understand the Mass.
The Kyrie continued to be recited in Greek during the TLM.

While the Confiteor may remain in the OF, we know longer strike our breast three times saying “mea culpa, mea culpa, mea maxima culpa.” This is one instance where the Magisterium chose to remove redundancy, and the prayer simplified. I have listened to priests trained in the TLM speak of other repetitive actions, but have chosen not to allow this post to digress further in that direction. Yes, I know the Confiteor is not always included in the OF, but I like that it is becoming more commonly recited as part of the penitential rite. “I confess to Almighty God and to you, my brothers and sisters…” I just found on-line that the Confiteor was composed in the 8th century and did not become a part of the Mass until the 11th century.

Monastery Greetings offers a CD from the Trappist Monks of the LaTroun monastery that combines Gregorian Chant, the earliest form of Western music, with the Syriac Maronite Liturgy, probably the earliest Christian liturgy. If we wanted to continue back in time, we could go to the Aramaic in which Jesus taught. Then again, it is not a language I understand. I think it is beautiful that Mass can be offered 15 times every weekend in 8 different languages at the church where I worship when I return to the Persian Gulf.

This will be re-included with the new translation of the Mass that is coming out soon

 

[ProVobis]

There was controversy when Latin (the Vulgate) was first chosen to replace Greek in order that the ordinary person could understand the Mass.

To some degree. In the early centuries, very few actually spoke what we call classical Latin. In many areas Latin was being vulgarized slowly (mostly by the uneducated) into what today we call Spanish, Italian, French, Catalan, Romanian, and Portuguese and other languages.

Read more here.

Also here.

 

[ProVobis]

There was controversy when Latin (the Vulgate) was first chosen to replace Greek in order that the ordinary person could understand the Mass.

To some degree. In the early centuries, very few actually spoke what we call classical Latin. In many areas Latin was being vulgarized slowly (mostly by the uneducated) into what today we call Spanish, Italian, French, Catalan, Romanian, and Portuguese and other languages.

Read more here.

Also here.

My guess is that the Church needed to standardize the Mass in the West so that everyone was on the same understanding level, whether they actually understood it fully or not, especially since St. Jerome had now formed the Latin Vulgate, which was a consolidation of the Greek, Hebrew, Latin, and other scriptural books approved by the early Church. Unlike today where the tendency is to vernacularize into many languages of the world, but that obviously has limitations as each vernacular must be approved and authenticized by the Vatican. Imagine having to maintain several hundred vernaculars but that’s the task imposed on the Vatican today. In any event the Latin Mass did flourish and spread Christianity to many new places for well over 1600 years.