Tridentine trouble

[crazzeto]

To some degree. In the early centuries, very few actually spoke what we call classical Latin. In many areas Latin was being vulgarized slowly (mostly by the uneducated) into what today we call Spanish, Italian, French, Catalan, Romanian, and Portuguese and other languages.

Read more here.

Also here.

My guess is that the Church needed to standardize the Mass in the West so that everyone was on the same understanding level, whether they actually understood it fully or not, especially since St. Jerome had now formed the Latin Vulgate, which was a consolidation of the Greek, Hebrew, Latin, and other scriptural books approved by the early Church. Unlike today where the tendency is to vernacularize into many languages of the world, but that obviously has limitations as each vernacular must be approved and authenticized by the Vatican. Imagine having to maintain several hundred vernaculars but that’s the task imposed on the Vatican today. In any event the Latin Mass did flourish and spread Christianity to many new places for well over 1600 years.

And it was done yet again, with the cooperation of the second vatican council and Pope Paul VI. I think that’s the general point of the poster you are replying too, what was done in the mid 60’s is no different than what was already done many hundreds of years ago when Latinization of the Mass came out of Africa.

It is the history and heritage (much to the shigrin of many Protestants) that the Church has always put considerable effort in making not only Scripture, but the Mass accessable generally to all. Personally I’m happy that we can choose to worship in our ancient tradition, or we can choose the OF if we can’t get into the swing of things with TLM.

 

[Sherry_G]

This suggestion would be most helpful in learing more about the Latin usage at Mass: I would suggest to the OP looking for a good 1962 missal.

I personally have one and take it with me to Mass always. During the Preparation of the gifts, I refer to my Missal as it has english and latin side by side, plus notes that are so helpful in explaining each step in the process of our Mass. The prayers of the 1962 Mass were extraordinarily beautiful and seeing Latin and English translation definitely has helped me maintain my latin knowledge and pronunciation. I attended a Catholic High School, taught by Sisters of Notre Dame de Namur, and we had daily Mass before classes began, so this in ingrained knowledge that has never faded away.

I am looking forward to attending and participating a Latin Mass in either OF or EF. I now understand there is one within a two hour drive from my home, so I will get there sometime soon.

 

[ProVobis]

what was done in the mid 60’s is no different than what was already done many hundreds of years ago when Latinization of the Mass came out of Africa.

I strongly disagree. Whereas they’re appeared to be more consolidation/standardization/centralization in the early centuries, what happened after Vatican II was a babelization, banalization, and fabrication of the Church’s greatest prayer. (Cardinal Ratzinger, a high ranking member of the Church’s Magisterium has already said the New Mass was a banal fabrication.) There is no way you can convince me the level of understanding of the Mass is in any way uniform throughout the Western world. Oh sure, they all can say “Now I understand the Mass” but in reality this isn’t necessarily so. Thinking and pretending you understand just doesn’t cut it.

 

[crazzeto]

I strongly disagree. Whereas they’re appeared to be more consolidation/standardization/centralization in the early centuries, what happened after Vatican II was a babelization, banalization, and fabrication of the Church’s greatest prayer. (Cardinal Ratzinger, a high ranking member of the Church’s Magisterium has already said the New Mass was a banal fabrication.) There is no way you can convince me the level of understanding of the Mass is in any way uniform throughout the Western world. Oh sure, they all can say “Now I understand the Mass” but in reality this isn’t necessarily so. Thinking and pretending you understand doesn’t make it so.

Much like with the Tridentine Mass, those who understand OF are those who bother learning it, where the prayers come from and why we do what we do. You really can’t make the argument you’re trying to make against OF with out also making it against EF on that level.

With regard to “centralization/standarization”, from my view point I disagree in so far as the mass doesn’t need to be a single language in order to be standardized. The only argument I can see are some of the choices made when translating the English Missal, which is now being retranslated and will be in parishes shortly.

With regard to Cardinal Ratzigar, I don’t see him aboloishing OF now that he has the power to do so. I do see him releaseing the EF which is terrific, and I do see the OF getting some needed attention certainly in regard to the English Language.

I’m sorry, you really can’t present any argument to suggest there is anything the OP is missing out on in OF, other than the Beauty of the EF mass and the historical connection, aspects which are very nice but not necessary with regard to the repose of his soul.

I have a direct question to you now, what do you have against the OP taking an EF time out while he actually learns the EF Mass before he gives it another shot? Since he is not missing out on necessary graces by attending OF, which not stay in your comfort zone for another Mass or two before you dip your toes back in the more traditional Mass?

I just don’t see the profibility of the more stubborn approch in this case. In this case, I see (mildly) a good application of an exhortation found in the Didache

“For if you are able to bear the entire yoke of the Lord, you will be perfect; but if you are not able to do this, do what you are able.”

 

[ProVobis]

I have a direct question to you now, what do you have against the OP taking an EF time out while he actually learns the EF Mass before he gives it another shot? Since he is not missing out on necessary graces by attending OF, which not stay in your comfort zone for another Mass or two before you dip your toes back in the more traditional Mass?

I guess I don’t really fully understand the OP’s position to advise anything, though I do see a current bias against the EF. If he/she is not open to attend the EF again sometime in the future and has no problems with the OF, then it seems like a no-brainer as to the proper course of action.

 

[crazzeto]

I guess I don’t really fully understand the OP’s position to advise anything, though I do see a current bias against the EF. If he/she is not open to attend the EF again sometime in the future and has no problems with the OF, then it seems like a no-brainer as to the proper course of action.

How do you see a bias against EF? I see no such thing, rather I see in his post an openness to it but fustration with the experience… I believe such advice is very prudent given the OP’s level of fustration. Rather than letting him build up anger due to his fustration get him out of the situation for now. He should study, and I have every confidence when he more fully understands the EF he will be back and will be able to more fully appriciate the beauty of it.

 

[Lux_Ad_Orientum]

I strongly disagree. Whereas they’re appeared to be more consolidation/standardization/centralization in the early centuries, what happened after Vatican II was a babelization, banalization, and fabrication of the Church’s greatest prayer. (Cardinal Ratzinger, a high ranking member of the Church’s Magisterium has already said the New Mass was a banal fabrication.) There is no way you can convince me the level of understanding of the Mass is in any way uniform throughout the Western world. Oh sure, they all can say “Now I understand the Mass” but in reality this isn’t necessarily so. Thinking and pretending you understand just doesn’t cut it.

The Novus Ordo Church is defintitely a “babelization, banalization, and fabrication”!!!

:extrahappy::clapping:

LOL. Pretending you are following the WILL OF GOD just doesn’t cut it when you are called to DOOMSDAY JUDGEMENT, does it?

 

[CradleCath]

The Novus Ordo title is name applied to any new missale (I believe and watch my spelling). It is often used on these forums in a negative and disdainful manner. The proper term is the Ordinary Form.

I doubt that’s true. I often use the term Novus Ordo (or the abbreviation NO) because that is what this Mass has been called in my area since the 60’s. I, also, abbreviate my Mass of choice & call it the TLM.

 

[CradleCath]

Don’t feel like you’re missing out by going to OF if that’s where you feel like you can best focus on the Mass and what is happening there. Personally I loved the Tridentine Mass, even though I also felt a little lost with my first experience there. For me, I intend to keep going and intend to have a misslett ready for my next experience.

Perhaps for your part, OF is where you need to be. Don’t get caught up in the opinions of some regarding EF… Yes it’s truely wonderful, yes it’s pleaseing to the Lord, yes it’s our Heretage. But the Spirit led the Church with Vatican II, and I beleive he lead Pope Paul XI when OF was first instituted. **We do need it, because it is more natural for people today to worship in the Venacular. **
Continue growing in your faith at OF, God bless!

What is “more natural for people today” is what is easy, takes no study, no deeply profound & propitiatory prayer. AND what each of us “feel” about each of the Masses in the Latin Church is not nearly as important as which of the two bring the greatest glory to God.

 

[CradleCath]

QUOTE=crazzeto;6942267]What secular music is used in a OF Mass? Perhaps there are those instances of abuse where it has happend, but these are the exception and not the rule for OF

.

Abuses within the Novus Ordo Mass, in my area, are the norm. There are **6-8 EXTRAordinary **Eucharistic Ministers, when the circumstances are very ordinary. We aren’t allowed to kneel for Communion (& don’t say that this isn’t permitted, because it is mandated in almost every parish in my city.) The commotion of all of these EEM’s getting out of their seats, juxtapositioning themselves so that they will have a position in the Sanctuary that pleases them…when we have only 200 Communicants…is downright silly & it sure is noisy. There are Lay Lectors & Lay Readers, there is the holding of hands during the Lord’s Prayer & the raising of same at the doxology. There are people crossing the aisle to shake someone’s hand, the priest strolling up & down the aisle doing the same. There is NO Latin, there is NO Gregorian Chant. While the Clowns, Liturgical Dance, etc. have abated…the abuse has not. It is total chaos with the Laity using their “positions” to somehow satisfy their need to be noticed.

I would suggest to the OP., order one of the many DVD’s available that teach this Mass & keep on trying. When you “get there”, you’ll find it is worth all of the work.
sanctamissa.org/en/latin-mass-dvd/

 

[Magnus467]

I doubt that’s true. I often use the term Novus Ordo (or the abbreviation NO) because that is what this Mass has been called in my area since the 60’s. I, also, abbreviate my Mass of choice & call it the TLM.

Are you saying I am lying??? It certainly is true. Look above one poster just typed “The Novus Ordo Church”. It has a negative connotation in the way he meant it.

 

[Magnus467]

The Novus Ordo Church is defintitely a “babelization, banalization, and fabrication”!!!

:extrahappy::clapping:

LOL. Pretending you are following the WILL OF GOD just doesn’t cut it when you are called to DOOMSDAY JUDGEMENT, does it?

Do you care to elaborate on this statement? By rejecting the OF of the Mass you are rejecting the authority that the Church has. What is the Novus Ordo Church? It must be the people who attend Mass and follow the commandments and pray to God prescribed by the Catholic Church.
Can you provide me with a primary source of Cardinal Ratzinger saying this? I literally have to restrain myself from commenting on the ridiculousness of this post. I will pray for your conversion.

 

[Lux_Ad_Orientum]

Do you care to elaborate on this statement? By rejecting the OF of the Mass you are rejecting the authority that the Church has. What is the Novus Ordo Church? It must be the people who attend Mass and follow the commandments and pray to God prescribed by the Catholic Church.
Can you provide me with a primary source of Cardinal Ratzinger saying this? I literally have to restrain myself from commenting on the ridiculousness of this post. I will pray for your conversion.

Sorry if Traditional Catholic views offend you. I know it isn’t very politicly correct I don’t know where Cardinal Ratzinger said this, but I know he did. Does it matter. Open your own eyes. ONE LANGUAGE (Latin) → many languages = Babelization. HOLY WORSHIP → clown mass, balloons, homosezuals and women in the Sancturary = Banalization. MASS HANDED DOWN FROM JESUS"S TIME → trite invention dreamed up by Bugninni and his committee infested with Protestants, Freemansons and Jewry = Fabrication.

Does that help?

 

[ProVobis]

Can you provide me with a primary source of Cardinal Ratzinger saying this?

In Revue Theologisches, Vol. 20, Feb. 1990, pgs. 103-104, then Cardinal Ratzinger stated:

“The liturgical reform, in its concrete realization, has distanced itself even more from its origin. The result has not been a reanimation, but devastation. In place of the liturgy, fruit of a continual development, they have placed a fabricated liturgy. They have deserted a vital process of growth and becoming in order to substitute a fabrication.They did not want to continue the development, the organic maturing of something living through the centuries, and they replaced it, in the manner of technical production, by a fabrication, a banal product of the moment.”

In the preface to the French translation of Monsignor Klaus Gamber’s most famous book, Die Reform der römischen Liturgie (The Reform of the Roman Rite) then Cardinal Ratzinger stated:

“What happened after the Council was altogether different: instead of a liturgy fruit of continuous development, a fabricated liturgy was put in its place. A living growing process was abandoned and the fabrication started. There was no further wish to continue the organic evolution and maturation of the living being throughout the centuries and they were replaced – as if in a technical production – by a fabrication, a banal product of the moment. Gamber, with the vigilance of a true visionary and with the fearlessness of a true witness, opposed this falsification and tirelessly taught us the living fullness of a true liturgy, thanks to his incredibly rich knowledge of the sources. As a man who knew and who loved history, he showed us the multiple forms of the evolution and of the path of the liturgy; as a man who saw history from the inside, he saw in this development and in the fruit of this development the intangible reflection of the eternal liturgy, which is not the object of our action, but which may marvelously continue to blossom and to ripen, if we join its mystery intimately.”

 

[stceolfrithtx]

Aramis and all other Eastern Catholics, again, you’re late to the party, I’ve already talked about my favorable experiences with the Byzantine Divine Liturgy!

 

[stceolfrithtx]

The Latin expression Novus Ordo Missae was never intended to be derogative.

I recommend ignoring anyone who treats the “Novus Ordo” as a derogatory term. You guys do realize probably less than 1% of the Catholics who have ever lived or ever will live will ever care about how we call N.O. or O.F. in the early 21st century? I vastly prefer the N.O. right now but I still hope that it will be replaced by a superior rite that lends itself well to (and allows) vernacular translations.

 

[stceolfrithtx]

Right now isn’t the best time for the OP to be attending an EF Mass, rather I would suggest he should personally attend OF regularly, certainly for all holy days of obligation. I would also suggest to the OP that perhaps he take a time out to try and learn some more about the EF, see if you can become more aquainted and comfortable with the fantastic and reverent worship offered there. That way when he does come back to it, he’ll actually be able to worship the Lord, rather than being out the outside trying to figure out the mechanics of the Mass.

Don’t worry about me (the OP) so much. Although there were some unsavory characters here early on, I haven’t been chased off. I’m not totally turned off of the EF. And I already attend the OF for all Sundays and Holy Days of Obligation, I don’t need any encouragement just to attend Mass! I might try “assisting” at Mass at the EF now and then, which is a reversal of my earlier intention, but I intend to go only with a friend who is familiar with the EF.

 

[stceolfrithtx]

How do you see a bias against EF? I see no such thing, rather I see in his post an openness to it but fustration with the experience…

I can state that this is an accurate assessment to my mindset: openness but frustration. My times of greatest union with God during Masses so far have been those OF and Roman/Anglican Use masses that most approached the reverence of an EF Mass, that mainly Gregorian chant, but where the priest mostly spoke in English. Not to mention every beautiful, elevating Byzantine Divine Liturgy that I’ve attended (all in English).

But I hope to achieve a similar ability for active participation (or active receptivity, as I believe Fr. Z says) while assisting at the EF Mass someday.

 

[ProVobis]

I vastly prefer the N.O. right now but I still hope that it will be replaced by a superior rite that lends itself well to (and allows) vernacular translations.

As one that attends both the OF and EF, I’m a little troubled with someone asking for something “superior.”

 

[crazzeto]

I can state that this is an accurate assessment to my mindset: openness but frustration. My times of greatest union with God during Masses so far have been those OF and Roman/Anglican Use masses that most approached the reverence of an EF Mass, that mainly Gregorian chant, but where the priest mostly spoke in English. Not to mention every beautiful, elevating Byzantine Divine Liturgy that I’ve attended (all in English).

But I hope to achieve a similar ability for active participation (or active receptivity, as I believe Fr. Z says) while assisting at the EF Mass someday.

Well some goodnews with N.O. is that the new Missal should help spark a bit of a revolution in how the mass is said. I truely do feel it will very highly encourage greater reverence, and finally sweep away all the old abuses… Perhaps not all at once, but I think that with in 10 years max, all Catholic will balk at the old “Spirit of Vatican II” abuses.

If you don’t have one, I suggest picking up a basic 1962 Missal at your local Catholic Store. You don’t have to splurg on the expensive one that includes readings if you don’t have the cash (I would have, but I didn’t have $60+ in my budget). Just having the missal there will help you quite a bit with EF. Frankly it will also help you with the new N.O. which will be coming out soon, as all indications are it should be very close (if not exactly) the same literal translation of EF you’ll find in the 1962 missal.

As one that attends both the OF and EF, I’m a little troubled with someone asking for something “superior.”

Well for once I do agree with you in this thread. I wouldn’t suggest either mass is inherently superior, rather I would suggest the one that allows you to participate as a part of the holy sacrafice of the mass as being the superior mass for the individual. EF pleases God, it has deeply rooted tradition and history. For me this tends to make it superior, I really connect with that, I feel more a member of the entire body of Christ.

For others like the OP it can be fustrating not feeling a part of the mass celebration it’s self. While I can look past my present difficulties, not everyone can and we should respect that. Again, though, since the OP likes reverent masses I suggest studying up on the EF Mass… Activly try to get your self in sync with what is going on, then give it another shot. I suggest the OP will feel infinantly more connected once he gets past his initial issues with language and different posturing.