Trinity and Divine Simplicity

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As far as I know, divine simplicity is a de fide teaching of the Catholic Church. If that is so, how do we square that teaching with the Trinity? Does not the Trinity mean God is composed of parts and thus not simple? I’m not denying divine simplicity or the Trinity. I am genuinely interested in how they relate to each other.
 
No, the Persons of the Trinity are not parts. The Father is not one third of God.

“The Father is God; the Son is God, and the Holy Spirit is God. Yet there are not three gods, but one God.” – the Athanasian Creed

Usagi
 
Usagi said:
No, the Persons of the Trinity are not parts. The Father is not one third of God.

“The Father is God; the Son is God, and the Holy Spirit is God. Yet there are not three gods, but one God.” – the Athanasian Creed

Usagi
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Okay, this is promising start. Thanks for jumping in. How are each Person of the Trinity God and yet there is only one God? Three in one does not seem like divine simplicity. I admit to not knowing much however so perhaps I am not asking the right questions.
 
The Persons of the Trinity are distinguished from each other by their relationships with each other, not in their substance. The idea of divine simplicity applies to God as God, prior to all considerations of the Trinity. Each of the Divine Persons is, in Himself, entirely this one, simple, indivisible God.
 
The holy Trinity is about community, relationship. Real people are relational. That makes sense. The isolated god of Islam is not simple but scary. The Christian God is a God real people can connect with.
 
Aelred Minor;

The Persons of the Trinity are distinguished from each other by their relationships with each other,
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Can the greatest commandments possibly describe how Christ is one with the Father?
When Jesus spent his time on Earth he would have lived by these commandments,

Jesus loves God the Father with all his heart, soul, mind and strength.
Jesus loves each and every one of us as he loves himself.

Does God the Father respond to this love?

God the Father loves God the Son, with all his heart, soul, mind and strength.
God the Father loves each and everyone of us as he loves himself.

Can the spirit be the power of God’s love working through the greatest commandments?

This passage links the spirit and the greatest commandments…
1 Samuel 18 ( New International Bible )

**** 1 Jonathan became one in spirit with David, and he loved him as himself****
 
Eric_Hyom said:
Can the greatest commandments possibly describe how Christ is one with the Father?
When Jesus spent his time on Earth he would have lived by these commandments,

Jesus loves God the Father with all his heart, soul, mind and strength.
Jesus loves each and every one of us as he loves himself.

Does God the Father respond to this love?

God the Father loves God the Son, with all his heart, soul, mind and strength.
God the Father loves each and everyone of us as he loves himself.

Can the spirit be the power of God’s love working through the greatest commandments?

This passage links the spirit and the greatest commandments…
1 Samuel 18 ( New International Bible )

**** 1 Jonathan became one in spirit with David, and he loved him as himself
Click to expand...
I’m not sure what your overall point is. If you mean that the unity of the Trinity consists entirely of Jesus of Nazareth’s human love for God the Father, and the Father’s allegedly responsive love for this particular man, then I think you are committing an extremely serious error. Hopefully this is not at all what you mean.
 
ChristIsTheWay said:
As far as I know, divine simplicity is a de fide teaching of the Catholic Church. If that is so, how do we square that teaching with the Trinity? Does not the Trinity mean God is composed of parts and thus not simple? I’m not denying divine simplicity or the Trinity. I am genuinely interested in how they relate to each other.
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We have a personal God who is Love.
The Trinity involves the relationship, the Holy Spirit, between the Father and the Son.
Nothing exists alone, alone; if you are alone, it is in relation to something else, others.
If God were not the Trinity, He would be the god we see in Monism or Deism, which is not consistent with what has been revealed.
 
ChristIsTheWay said:
As far as I know, divine simplicity is a de fide teaching of the Catholic Church. If that is so, how do we square that teaching with the Trinity? Does not the Trinity mean God is composed of parts and thus not simple? I’m not denying divine simplicity or the Trinity. I am genuinely interested in how they relate to each other.
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To square the Divine simplicity of God with the Trinitarian God, simply declare “who do you say God is?”
From your declaration, it should be quite simple to deduce how God is three distinct persons that are one God.

One example:
I could say God is the person who is always loving (omnibenevolent).
There are three distinct persons that are the person who is always loving:
  1. The person who is always loving – The Father
  2. The person who, although is always loving, is assumed by another person to act outside of love – The Son, one in being with the Father, who is incarnate by the Holy Spirit and became man.
  3. The person who becomes always loving – The Holy Spirit, who proceeds from the Father and the Son.
Each distinct person is still the person who is always loving, aka God, and by definition, cannot be either one of the other persons.

Thanks for your time and consideration! I pray this helps, and I look forward to hearing your declaration of “who do you say God is” for analysis!
 
Yes, divine simplicity is Catholic doctrine. God has no parts, and no extension in space or time. God is one being, not three beings. Each Person of the Trinity is in full possession of the One Divine Nature. The persons do not share the one divine nature, it is not divided, it is always one.

Consider that you are a human being. That is your nature. You are also one human person. Because you are one human person and one human nature, does not make you two entities instead of one.

To study the matter in more depth, I recommend this book.
 
JimG said:
Yes, divine simplicity is Catholic doctrine. God has no parts, and no extension in space or time. God is one being, not three beings. Each Person of the Trinity is in full possession of the One Divine Nature. The persons do not share the one divine nature, it is not divided, it is always one.

Consider that you are a human being. That is your nature. You are also one human person. Because you are one human person and one human nature, does not make you two entities instead of one.

To study the matter in more depth, I recommend this book.
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By the way, while divine simplicity is solid theology I was not aware that it was formally defined Catholic doctrine (maybe even de fide, as the OP suggested). Do you know off hand when and where the Church defined this?
 
Aelred_Minor said:
By the way, while divine simplicity is solid theology I was not aware that it was formally defined Catholic doctrine (maybe even de fide, as the OP suggested). Do you know off hand when and where the Church defined this?
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I don’t know if this is formally defined or not offhand. The theology is that God is pure Spirit, and that spirit is simple in being, having no extension in space or time.
 
ChristIsTheWay said:
Well, I would say that God is the supreme, loving reality to which we all long for.
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Nice definition!

Please consider the following analysis:
The supreme reality is definitely Eternal Love for All!
Eternal Love for All requires an All-knowing Creator of everything that is three distinct persons and His created Church, and here is why:
The first person of the All-knowing Creator must be all-knowing in order to determine the eternal dedication to living according to the rules of Eternal Love of the created “lovers” of the supreme reality.
The second person of the All-knowing Creator must sacrifice all-knowledge, without sacrificing all-wisdom, in order to be a “lover” in the supreme reality.
The third person of the All-knowing Creator must sacrifice all-knowledge and all-wisdom in order to demonstrate to His created Church the formation from ignorance to becoming all-wise and Eternally Loving.
The created Church are not the Creator, however, are creations who will become one in capability and morality with the Creator of everything in order to be a “lover” in the supreme reality.

Thanks for your time and consideration! I look forward to hearing your thoughts and critiques!
 
jochoa said:
Nice definition!

Please consider the following analysis:
The supreme reality is definitely Eternal Love for All!
Eternal Love for All requires an All-knowing Creator of everything that is three distinct persons and His created Church, and here is why:
The first person of the All-knowing Creator must be all-knowing in order to determine the eternal dedication to living according to the rules of Eternal Love of the created “lovers” of the supreme reality.
The second person of the All-knowing Creator must sacrifice all-knowledge, without sacrificing all-wisdom, in order to be a “lover” in the supreme reality.
The third person of the All-knowing Creator must sacrifice all-knowledge and all-wisdom in order to demonstrate to His created Church the formation from ignorance to becoming all-wise and Eternally Loving.
The created Church are not the Creator, however, are creations who will become one in capability and morality with the Creator of everything in order to be a “lover” in the supreme reality.

Thanks for your time and consideration! I look forward to hearing your thoughts and critiques!
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Why must the second and third persons sacrifice attributes in order to be part of the eternal love that is God? Also, could you share some more about the created Church becoming one in capability and morality with God? Thanks! 🙂
 
ChristIsTheWay said:
Why must the second and third persons sacrifice attributes in order to be part of the eternal love that is God? Also, could you share some more about the created Church becoming one in capability and morality with God? Thanks! 🙂
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Theologically speaking, all the attributes of God belong to the one divine nature, and are in fact identical to the one divine nature. Since all three persons of the Trinity possess the one divine nature, they possess the same attributes, such as omnipotence, omniscience, eternity, omnipresence, etc.
 
Originally Posted by Eric Hyom
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Can the greatest commandments possibly describe how Christ is one with the Father?
*When Jesus spent his time on Earth he would have lived by these commandments, *

Jesus loves God the Father with all his heart, soul, mind and strength.
Jesus loves each and every one of us as he loves himself.

Does God the Father respond to this love?

God the Father loves God the Son, with all his heart, soul, mind and strength.
God the Father loves each and everyone of us as he loves himself.

Can the spirit be the power of God’s love working through the greatest commandments?

This passage links the spirit and the greatest commandments…
1 Samuel 18 ( New International Bible )

1 Jonathan became one in spirit with David, and he loved him as himself****
Aelred_Minor said:
I’m not sure what your overall point is. If you mean that the unity of the Trinity consists entirely of Jesus of Nazareth’s human love for God the Father, and the Father’s allegedly responsive love for this particular man, then I think you are committing an extremely serious error. Hopefully this is not at all what you mean.
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I am not sure how we; as mere mortals can find a greater definition of love than the greatest commandments, because we would have to find something greater than Jesus said is greatest
 
In light of what happened before God became human and went to the cross, self emptying is central to who God is. If Christ was really suffering with Israel in Egypt in the time of Moses; and with Abel as Cain murdered him, then the essence of God is love. ‘Indeed, I know their sufferings, and I have come down to deliver them.’ “Then you shall say to Pharaoh, ‘Thus says the LORD: Israel is my firstborn son. I said to you, “Let my son go that he may worship me.”’” (Exodus 3:7-8; 4:22-23) The social theology of the Exodus, in which the Father could elevate the whole nation of Israel to the position Christ occupies by nature, reveals the suffering Christ spoke of in Matthew 25. Whatever is done to the least of these his brothers and sisters is done to him, even before he himself became human. The essence of God is self giving love, love extended to sinful humanity, not because we deserved it, but because God has always loved us just as they love each other. At the centre of God stands the Son who finally became human himself, bringing divine suffering to its climax on the cross. The simplicity of God is not simply being all powerful, yet remaining detached from creation. The simplicity of God is the simplicity of all powerful love in which God hides himself in human suffering, which came to its climax in his own humanity, when he not only suffered in a mystical, transferred sense in others-martyrs like Abel or the nation he was born into when they were slaves in Egypt-but he himself in his own crucified humanity. This means God is not an inaccessible abstraction but a community with us at the heart of their life together.
 
ChristIsTheWay said:
Why must the second and third persons sacrifice attributes in order to be part of the eternal love that is God?
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Thanks for extended discussion! Please consider the following:
The second person must sacrifice all-knowledge because possessing all-knowledge in a relationship limits the joy the person can experience. A simple parallel is found in consideration of the decrease in joy experienced when watching a movie in which you know everything that is to happen, before it happens.
The third person must sacrifice all-knowledge and all-wisdom for the fulfillment of kindness to the created persons. Since it is impossible to know everything as a created person, the third person becomes fully ignorant to demonstrate the moral growth from ignorance to all-wise, which is a form of all-knowledge, and Eternally Loving.
Also, could you share some more about the created Church becoming one in capability and morality with God? Thanks! 🙂
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According to Church Teaching #460 - "For the Son of God became man so that we might become God."80
Here is one way to understand literally becoming one in capability with God:
Since God is a living being who is all-powerful, then recognize the pinnacle of being all-powerful is getting everything wanted and/or needed.
Jesus shared with us how to get everything wanted and needed when he “embraced unjust crucifixion.” To get everything wanted and needed as a human, simply want to be patient and kind, even in the face of unjust cruelty, to the point of death for the experience of unending joy with unbreakable peace for all.
Therefore, when you accomplish always wanting to be patient and kind towards all for the experience of joy and peace for all, you will have become one in morality with God because God is Love and “Love is Patient, is Kind.”

I look forward to hearing your thoughts and critiques. Thank you for helping me grow in understanding by asking great questions for reflection!
 
JimG said:
I don’t know if this is formally defined or not offhand. The theology is that God is pure Spirit, and that spirit is simple in being, having no extension in space or time.
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I had lost track of this thread, and in the meantime I had a similar discussion with a friend on facebook which spurred me to actually look it up. Here’s what I found.

The Fourth Lateran Council declared: “We firmly believe and simply confess that there is only one true God, eternal and immeasurable, almighty, unchangeable, incomprehensible and ineffable, Father, Son and holy Spirit, three persons but one absolutely simple essence, substance or nature.”

Also First Vatican Council, Dogmatic Constitution on the Catholic Faith, Chapter 1, paragraph 2: “Since he is one, singular, completely simple and unchangeable spiritual substance, he must be declared to be in reality and in essence, distinct from the world, supremely happy in himself and from himself, and inexpressibly loftier than anything besides himself which either exists or can be imagined.”
 
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