Trinity and oneness

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billcu1

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Can someone help me a little bit with the doctrines of trinity and oneness? God is not one and having three parts right? The three are one. The scriptures say there are three that bear witness in heaven.
 
St. Patrick was one who tried to explain the mystery of the Most Holy Trinity. He gave the analogy of a clover, that has 3 petals, but is still one clover (not 3).
We are monotheistic and believe they are one God.

God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit. God the Father is not God the Son or the Holy Spirit.

Another way, I think of it to try to describe something that is possibly indescribable would be the analogy of the family. Imagine you have a mother, father, and child. Together, they are a family. The husband and wife literally become one. The product of their love is, literally, another life!

So, we have God the Father and God the Son. The love between them is the Holy Spirit.
 
billcu1 said:
Can someone help me a little bit with the doctrines of trinity and oneness? God is not one and having three parts right? The three are one. The scriptures say there are three that bear witness in heaven.
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Correct, the persons of the Trinity are equally God, not parts. But they are individual and distinct persons.
 
billcu1 said:
What exactly is personage? I know man’s personage is one.
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A person is an idea that beings use to communicate with other beings. It’s a fiction, of a sort. The word person comes from an older word, persona, which is an actor’s mask, used so one actor could play a role (or more than one role) in a play. A man can have more than one person, but he is never more than one being.
 
Athanasian Creed
  1. Whosoever will be saved, before all things it is necessary that he hold the catholic faith;
  2. Which faith except every one do keep whole and undefiled, without doubt he shall perish everlastingly.
  3. And the catholic faith is this: That we worship one God in Trinity, and Trinity in Unity;
  4. Neither confounding the persons nor dividing the substance.
  5. For there is one person of the Father, another of the Son, and another of the Holy Spirit.
  6. But the Godhead of the Father, of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit is all one, the glory equal, the majesty coeternal.
  7. Such as the Father is, such is the Son, and such is the Holy Spirit.
  8. The Father uncreated, the Son uncreated, and the Holy Spirit uncreated.
  9. The Father incomprehensible, the Son incomprehensible, and the Holy Spirit incomprehensible.
  10. The Father eternal, the Son eternal, and the Holy Spirit eternal.
  11. And yet they are not three eternals but one eternal.
  12. As also there are not three uncreated nor three incomprehensible, but one uncreated and one incomprehensible.
  13. So likewise the Father is almighty, the Son almighty, and the Holy Spirit almighty.
  14. And yet they are not three almighties, but one almighty.
  15. So the Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Spirit is God;
  16. And yet they are not three Gods, but one God.
  17. So likewise the Father is Lord, the Son Lord, and the Holy Spirit Lord;
  18. And yet they are not three Lords but one Lord.
  19. For like as we are compelled by the Christian verity to acknowledge every Person by himself to be God and Lord;
  20. So are we forbidden by the catholic religion to say; There are three Gods or three Lords.
  21. The Father is made of none, neither created nor begotten.
  22. The Son is of the Father alone; not made nor created, but begotten.
  23. The Holy Spirit is of the Father and of the Son; neither made, nor created, nor begotten, but proceeding.
  24. So there is one Father, not three Fathers; one Son, not three Sons; one Holy Spirit, not three Holy Spirits.
  25. And in this Trinity none is afore or after another; none is greater or less than another.
  26. But the whole three persons are coeternal, and coequal.
  27. So that in all things, as aforesaid, the Unity in Trinity and the Trinity in Unity is to be worshipped.
  28. He therefore that will be saved must thus think of the Trinity.
  29. Furthermore it is necessary to everlasting salvation that he also believe rightly the incarnation of our Lord Jesus Christ.
  30. For the right faith is that we believe and confess that our Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, is God and man.
  31. God of the substance of the Father, begotten before the worlds; and man of substance of His mother, born in the world.
  32. Perfect God and perfect man, of a reasonable soul and human flesh subsisting.
  33. Equal to the Father as touching His Godhead, and inferior to the Father as touching His manhood.
  34. Who, although He is God and man, yet He is not two, but one Christ.
  35. One, not by conversion of the Godhead into flesh, but by taking of that manhood into God.
  36. One altogether, not by confusion of substance, but by unity of person.
  37. For as the reasonable soul and flesh is one man, so God and man is one Christ;
  38. Who suffered for our salvation, descended into hell, rose again the third day from the dead;
  39. He ascended into heaven, He sits on the right hand of the Father, God, Almighty;
  40. From thence He shall come to judge the quick and the dead.
  41. At whose coming all men shall rise again with their bodies;
  42. and shall give account of their own works.
  43. And they that have done good shall go into life everlasting and they that have done evil into everlasting fire.
  44. This is the catholic faith, which except a man believe faithfully he cannot be saved.
 
Jozefo said:
A person is an idea that beings use to communicate with other beings. It’s a fiction, of a sort. The word person comes from an older word, persona, which is an actor’s mask, used so one actor could play a role (or more than one role) in a play. A man can have more than one person, but he is never more than one being.
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I didn’t know a man could have more than one person. Maybe I’m misunderstanding my Thomism.
 
The analogy of the clover is a faulty one: it promotes partialism rather than Trinitarianism.

The analogy with the family is great, because a family quite literally is the human embodiment of the Trinity. The man, out of his own nature, has a need to love. This need to love causes him to become one with a woman, and the love shared between them is literally another person. Just like how the Son is begotten of the Father, and the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father and the Son.

My favorite way to understand it is with space. The material world is laid out in three dimensions, referred to as X, Y, and Z. Together, they make up space. However, if you take X away, Y and Z still exist as space.

The Father (x) is not the Son (y) is not the Holy Spirit (z) is not the Father. Each person of the Trinity are fully God (space), independently of the other Persons.
 
billcu1 said:
I didn’t know a man could have more than one person. Maybe I’m misunderstanding my Thomism.
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Say John Smith, family man, forms a corporation called John Smith Inc. Presto, he has two persons.

By itself, John Smith isn’t the being we call by that name. The name is a person. The name is merely the identity that the being answers to when called.
 
As one person put the Trinity: One What and Three Who. Maybe not the best explenation, but it is the best I can do. 🙂 🤷
 
Jozefo said:
Say John Smith, family man, forms a corporation called John Smith Inc. Presto, he has two persons.

By itself, John Smith isn’t the being we call by that name. The name is a person. The name is merely the identity that the being answers to when called.
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This is not Catholic teaching. John Smith, as a man, is only one person. This person may be expressed in different ways, but he is still only one person.

God is the only being with more than one person.

And your to reference to actors, the origin of the word does not designate the current definition of the word. While an actor may put on different masks to play different roles, underneath the disguise, he is still only one person ‘acting’ as another, but is not in actuality another person.

And there are indications that people with “multiple-personality” disorder do not actually have multiple personalities, but that the “personalities” are just exaggerated and/or extreme aspects of the original person.

A person is an individual, the self if you will. For each human person, he/she has a soul and a body.
 
There is only One God. God is Father Son & Holy Spirit.
Father Son and Holy Spirit are distinct from one another,
YET ARE ONE GOD. Father Son & Holy Spirit are NOT
parts of God, but each is Fully God.

God is One as to Be,
& Three as to Person.

Go onto Google (or Youtube) and look up these videos:
  • 1985 UPCI Oneness Pentecostal vs Trinitarian Debate
  • Debate Trinitarian vs Biblical Unitarian (Brant Bosserman and Sean Finnegan) full length
  • Debate_ Is God a Unity of Three Persons or Only One Person
  • Is the Trinity True or Not True (Parts 1 & 2)
  • Oneness Vs. Trinity Debate- David Bernard and Gene Cook
  • The Trinity_ Truth or Tragedy_ #1
The videos I recommended are very long.
 
billcu1 said:
Can someone help me a little bit with the doctrines of trinity and oneness? God is not one and having three parts right? The three are one. The scriptures say there are three that bear witness in heaven.
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The oneness of the Trinity refers to the substance, nature, essence of God. The trinity refers to the persons. God is absolutely simple, there is no composition in Him. The substance, nature, or essence of God is identical with the persons.
 
bzkoss236 said:
This is not Catholic teaching. John Smith, as a man, has only one person. This person may be expressed in different ways, but he is still only one person.

God is the only being with more than one person.

And your to reference to actors, the origin of the word does not designate the current definition of the word. While an actor may put on different masks to play different roles, underneath the disguise, he is still only one person ‘acting’ as another, but is not in actuality another person.

And there are indications that people with “multiple-personality” disorder do not actually have multiple personalities, but that the “personalities” are just exaggerated and/or extreme aspects of the original person.

A person is an individual, the self if you will. For each human person, he/she has a soul and a body.
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Well, I think it’s good to discuss these kinds of things, because they can be difficult to understand. I stand by what I said, because it does not conflict with Church teaching so far as I’m aware.
 
Jozefo said:
Well, I think it’s good to discuss these kinds of things, because they can be difficult to understand. I stand by what I said, because it does not conflict with Church teaching so far as I’m aware.
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It is Church teaching that all men have one person each and that God is three persons. The Oneness Pentecostals think of God the way which you describe, where the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are only displays (or roles) of God (like a man being a father, son, grandfather, boss, etc.) and not distinct individuals as the Church teaches.
 
bzkoss236 said:
It is Church teaching that all men have one person each and that God is three persons. The Oneness Pentecostals think of God the way which you describe, where the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are only displays (or roles) of God (like a man being a father, son, grandfather, boss, etc.) and not distinct individuals as the Church teaches.
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All men do have one person. Some men have more than one.

Please re-read my posts and find I never talked about God and his persons. Also, I see God’s persons as full individuals, yet they have one being.

Much of the confusion with personhood comes from people being taught that they cannot understand the Holy Trinity. I think that is false. I think it can be understood, and understood correctly, by recognizing that words have shades of meaning. ‘Person,’ is more than a mask, more than an individual, and more than a name.

A person is a man’s expression of his being in how he relates to other persons. Even our language reflects this. A man might say, “my name is John Smith.” ‘My name’ reflects the idea that he has a name, not that he is that name.

Now a name is what we call a person, and if he answers, we have communication. My mother gave me a name, and that is the name of my legal person, as far as the world is concerned. But I, as a living being, have exercised my option to change the name of my person. If someone calls me by my old name, I might simply refuse to respond.

I think that’s the strongest argument I have that persons are things that beings can manipulate and use.
 
Jozefo said:
All men do have one person. Some men have more than one.

Please re-read my posts and find I never talked about God and his persons. Also, I see God’s persons as full individuals, yet they have one being.

Much of the confusion with personhood comes from people being taught that they cannot understand the Holy Trinity. I think that is false. I think it can be understood, and understood correctly, by recognizing that words have shades of meaning. ‘Person,’ is more than a mask, more than an individual, and more than a name.

A person is a man’s expression of his being in how he relates to other persons. Even our language reflects this. A man might say, “my name is John Smith.” ‘My name’ reflects the idea that he has a name, not that he is that name.

Now a name is what we call a person, and if he answers, we have communication. My mother gave me a name, and that is the name of my legal person, as far as the world is concerned. But I, as a living being, have exercised my option to change the name of my person. If someone calls me by my old name, I might simply refuse to respond.

I think that’s the strongest argument I have that persons are things that beings can manipulate and use.
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This is not Church teaching. A name is a reference to a person. One person can have multiple names, multiple rules, but only one person. Church teaching is that each man has one and only one person. To say that a man can more than one person is heresy.
 
bzkoss236 said:
This is not Church teaching. A name is a reference to a person. One person can have multiple names, multiple rules, but only one person. Church teaching is that each man has one and only one person. To say that a man can more than one person is heresy.
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Can you cite that teaching? Because I think that conflates person with soul.

[Edit] – Also I brought up the idea of corporation being a person. We call that kind of person a legal person, in order to differentiate it from living persons. Yet it’s still a person, and as such, can be held by a man, along with his named person.

This goes back to my first post where I said a person is an idea that people use to communicate with other beings. Persons are ideas. So are beings, but beings have substance of being, whereas persons do not, as evidenced by the incorporated person.
 
bzkoss236 said:
This article does a good job of explaining it: newadvent.org/cathen/11726a.htm

Edit: The heresy is called Modalism.
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Thanks, and several things. First, that is not Church teaching, but is simply an encyclopidia article talking about person. Second, most of the article was really about the hypostatic union, and not personhood. Third, there was no agreement on what constituted a person as the idea of it related to the hypostatic union.

All I’m saying is a person is a fiction. It’s an idea. A being can have more than one person, as seen in the Trinity. But the Trinity is comprised of persons as complete individuals. They share the same Being because that Being is God - Holy, Eternal, One. The Persons of the Trinity are God, and having that nature, are One in Being. Yet the idea of personhood extends to mankind, being made in the image and likeness of God.

And man, sharing in that divine nature, has the ability to create persons, but not beings, and we do.

A man is body and soul, not body and person. The soul is that part of a man who is held judicially accountable to God, whereas his person is that fiction imposed on him by others so they can communicate with him.

I realize I might be completely wrong about all of this. But I can honestly say I have very thoroughly thought about all of what I’m saying, and I find no contradiction to Church teaching. It serves me well in helping to understand the world and my place in it.
 
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