Trinity Discussion Advice

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=Mailman;5744709]I don’t think “Deny one = denial of all” will apply in this case. Why? Because the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit are supposed to be three DISTINCT persons in the Godhead (The Trinitarian doctrine). Jesus’ statement is clear and specific. On the one hand it says: “Whosoever speaketh against the Son, it shall be forgiven him.” On the other, this: “But whosoever speaketh against the Holy Spirit, it shall not be forgiven him.”
Clearly, we can blaspheme the Son but not the Holy Spirit. If the two are co-equal persons, then what applies to one must equally apply to the other.
Now, there’s another difficulty with the concept of God being a Trinity of three DISTINCT [and co-equal] persons. The angel appeared to Joseph in a dream and said: “Joseph, thou son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife: for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Spirit” (Mat. 1:20).
If the third person of the Trinity [God the Holy Spirit] was responsible for Mary’s conception, why is Jesus “the only begotten of the Father”? “And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth” (Jn 1:14).
And here’s another on the concept of co-equality in a Trinity. Jesus said: “…I go unto the Father: For my Father is greater than I” (John 14:28). If we rephrase Jesus’ statement [but without changing the thought], Jesus could well have said, “God the Father is greater than God the son, we are not co-equal.”
By golly you really have your thinking cap on:thumbsup:

So if I understand you’re position; there are three God’s, not just one?

You may want to look at John 14:10 and John 10: 37-38?

Then look up: 1 Tim. 2:5, 1Cor. 8:6 and Eph.4:6.

Love and prayers,
 
By golly you really have your thinking cap on:thumbsup:

So if I understand you’re position; there are three God’s, not just one?

You may want to look at John 14:10 and John 10: 37-38?

Then look up: 1 Tim. 2:5, 1Cor. 8:6 and Eph.4:6.

Love and prayers,
You use verses ( 1 Tim. 2:5, 1Cor. 8:6 and Eph.4:6.) where bible writers establish Christian monotheism with the words one God but at the same time identify the Father as that one God. See my post on Monotheism from the shortcut in my signature.
 
=Dan Parker;5755016]You use verses ( 1 Tim. 2:5, 1Cor. 8:6 and Eph.4:6.) where bible writers establish Christian monotheism with the words one God but at the same time identify the Father as that one God. See my post on Monotheism from the shortcut in my signature.
As a JW, you have great difficulty accepting even “one God” so we should be surprised that you strugle with the reality of three persons in One God. This cannot be understood with human logic, it requires the gift of “Faith”.

The reason God does this is for us to better [but not completely] understand His Divine Nature. It is for hman benefit alone.

Love and prayers friend,
 
As a JW, you have great difficulty accepting even “one God” so we should be surprised that you strugle with the reality of three persons in One God. This cannot be understood with human logic, it requires the gift of “Faith”.

The reason God does this is for us to better [but not completely] understand His Divine Nature. It is for hman benefit alone.

Love and prayers friend,
As a matter of fact, Jehovah’s Witnesses are absolute monotheists. You might say were are MonoPersonalTheists while Trinitarians are PolyPersonalTheists.

We recognize that the word elohim or QEOS is properly used to describe the function of certain of God’s creatures such as men or angels when they represent him. Moses at Ex 7:1 is a good example of this use of elohim. This does not make Moses a second God any more than the Word as the representative of God at John 1:1 makes him a second God.

If you are really a monotheist, then the term to which you should pay close attention is MONOS-QEOS and hEIS-QEOS (only-God or one-God) and then see who is described in those terms. You posted some, and I have merely called attention to the fact that the verses you use identify the Father as that one-God. You did a good job identifying the Father as the one God. But for the Trinity you must also define two other persons as that one God.
 
As a matter of fact, Jehovah’s Witnesses are absolute monotheists. You might say were are MonoPersonalTheists while Trinitarians are PolyPersonalTheists.

We recognize that the word elohim or QEOS is properly used to describe the function of certain of God’s creatures such as men or angels when they represent him. Moses at Ex 7:1 is a good example of this use of elohim. This does not make Moses a second God any more than the Word as the representative of God at John 1:1 makes him a second God.

If you are really a monotheist, then the term to which you should pay close attention is MONOS-QEOS and hEIS-QEOS (only-God or one-God) and then see who is described in those terms. You posted some, and I have merely called attention to the fact that the verses you use identify the Father as that one-God. You did a good job identifying the Father as the one God. But for the Trinity you must also define two other persons as that one God.
This has already been established on the “John 1:1” thread in the apologetics section.
 
“Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy [Spirit] shall not be forgiven unto men. And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy [Spirit], it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come” (Mat. 12:31-32).

Why is only the blasphemy against the Holy Spirit an unforgivable sin when the Father, Son and Holy Spirit are supposed to be co-equal and all alike according to the Trinitarian doctrine?
Since Dan, as a JW, does not believe that the Holy Spirit is God, the question is outside of his limited theology and hence he is unable to answer it.

Both Our Lord and St. John speak of the sin that shall not be forgiven Our Lord calls it blasphemy against the Holy Ghost (Matthew 12:31), and St. John writes of the sin unto death (1 John 5:16). The explanation of these statements removes all difficulty. This sin has been identified by some final impenitence, which manifestly is not forgiven. A fuller explanation isthat this sin is the hardening of the heart against grace, which makes a man refuse to seek pardon. Such a sinner certainly is not forgiven, for he will not ask. This is the age-long explanation of the Church’s writers, and is consistent with the scriptural statements. Neither Our Lord nor St. John says that the sin “cannot” be forgiven, but that it “will not” be forgiven.
 
By golly you really have your thinking cap on:thumbsup:

So if I understand you’re position; there are three God’s, not just one?

You may want to look at John 14:10 and John 10: 37-38?

Then look up: 1 Tim. 2:5, 1Cor. 8:6 and Eph.4:6.

Love and prayers,
John 14:10 and John 10:37-38 say Jesus is IN the Father and the Father is IN Jesus. Would that make Jesus and the Father only one [in number]? Your next referenced text should provide some answer.

1 Tim. 2:5 “For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.”

There is one God. And there is Jesus Christ, the mediator between God and men. If Jesus Christ is also God (Heb. 1:8), how many Gods are there? Of course, two – one is Jesus and the other the one called “God,” or God the Father! This duality in God is clearly revealed in John 1:1.

But why did Moses declare, “Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, is one Lord!”? Is it because God is one in a Trinity?

God’s oneness is made clear in the book of John.

That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me. And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; THAT THEY MAY BE ONE, EVEN AS WE ARE ONE: I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.”(John 17:21-23).

Jesus prayed to the Father, “That they [referring to Christians] may be one” JUST AS He and the Father are one. If we say that Christ’s oneness with the Father makes up a Trinity [when the Holy Spirit is included], can we also say that the oneness of the true Christian community makes up an entity resembling a Trinity – that is, separate individuals physically merging to become a single being?

Jesus said He is IN the Father and the Father is IN Him. But Paul said “we” – meaning God’s people - are also “in him [the Father]” and according to Jesus He is IN His people and His people IN Him. “At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you” (John 14:20).

If we say Jesus and the Father [with the Holy Spirit] is one in a Trinity because the Father is IN Jesus and Jesus is IN the Father, can we also say that Jesus and His people also form some kind of a Trinity because Jesus is IN His people and His people are IN Him?

When we consider ALL scriptures on the subject, we would understand how God can be one yet two distinct individuals not necessarily merged into a “Trinity.” God’s oneness is not a numerical oneness but a unity of mind and purpose. That’s why Jesus said of His mission:

“My meat is to do the will of him that sent me, and to finish his work” and “…I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me” (John 4:34; 5:30).

Describing this relationship, Jesus said, “I and my Father are one” (John 10:30).

Now, Eph. 4:6: “One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.”

Yes, one God and Father. And one Lord, Jesus Christ, the Son. That makes two Gods, not one. That’s why King David said: “The LORD [God the Father] said unto my Lord [Jesus Christ]” – TWO Lords – “Sit thou on my right hand until I make thine enemies thy footstool.” In David’s prophetic vision the Father is talking to the Son. Then, about 1,000 years later, the apostle Peter confirms the identity of the two Beings (Acts 2:34-35).

The prophet Daniel also saw two Beings in heaven in a vision: “He [Jesus the Son] came to the Ancient of Days [God the Father], and they brought Him near before Him” (Dan. 7:13).

Two Gods, yet one in mind and purpose. That is how God is one.

God bless.
 
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Dan Parker, post:24, topic:169580"]
As a matter of fact, Jehovah’s Witnesses are absolute monotheists. You might say were are MonoPersonalTheists while Trinitarians are PolyPersonalTheists.

We recognize that the word elohim or QEOS is properly used to describe the function of certain of God’s creatures such as men or angels when they represent him. Moses at Ex 7:1 is a good example of this use of elohim. This does not make Moses a second God any more than the Word as the representative of God at John 1:1 makes him a second God.

If you are really a monotheist, then the term to which you should pay close attention is MONOS-QEOS and hEIS-QEOS (only-God or one-God) and then see who is described in those terms. You posted some, and I have merely called attention to the fact that the verses you use identify the Father as that one-God. You did a good job identifying the Father as the one God. But for the Trinity you must also define two other persons as that one God.
Hi Dan,

What a clever use of words:thumbsup:

However they do not chnage the fact that Christians believe in a Diety / The Trinity =One God and three Divine Persons.

JW’s understand this NOT to be trut, but do find in acceptable to think of themselves as “god’s.” NOT THE SAME FRIEND:D
 
Hi Dan,

What a clever use of words:thumbsup:

However they do not chnage the fact that Christians believe in a Diety / The Trinity =One God and three Divine Persons.

JW’s understand this NOT to be trut, but do find in acceptable to think of themselves as “god’s.” NOT THE SAME FRIEND:D
No, JWs do not think of ourselves as gods. I think you mistake us with some other denomination, perhaps LDS?
 
=Dan Parker;5787637]No, JWs do not think of ourselves as gods. I think you mistake us with some other denomination, perhaps LDS?
Hi Dan,

Sorry, I was not trying to add to you’re beliefs. My understanding [PLEASE CORRECT ME] is that when a JW dies, they go into wternal life [on earth] get married, have kids who honor them as “gods?”

Am I wrong here? If so. I am so very sorry. Appreciate you’re assistance:)

Love and prayers,

Pat
 
Hi Dan,

Sorry, I was not trying to add to you’re beliefs. My understanding [PLEASE CORRECT ME] is that when a JW dies, they go into wternal life [on earth] get married, have kids who honor them as “gods?”

Am I wrong here? If so. I am so very sorry. Appreciate you’re assistance:)

Love and prayers,

Pat
No. Jehovah’s Witnesses do teach that the earth will be transformed back into a Paradise and that “LXE Psalm 37:29 … the righteous shall inherit the earth, and dwell upon it for ever” is to be taken literally. 144,000 will be resurrected to rule with Christ in heaven (Rev 7 & 14; 20:6 ) and thus God’s will will take place on both heaven and earth. (Mt 6:10).

If anyone has children they will honor their parents as father and mother just as they do now, not as gods. That part you likely heard about LDS.
 
=Dan Parker;5787908]No. Jehovah’s Witnesses do teach that the earth will be transformed back into a Paradise and that “LXE Psalm 37:29 … the righteous shall inherit the earth, and dwell upon it for ever” is to be taken literally. 144,000 will be resurrected to rule with Christ in heaven (Rev 7 & 14; 20:6 ) and thus God’s will will take place on both heaven and earth. (Mt 6:10).
If anyone has children they will honor their parents as father and mother just as they do now, not as gods. That part you likely heard about LDS.
Dan, perhaps I can impose on you further to share what are the major differences between JW’s and LDS?

Appreciate you’re assistance.

Love and prayers,

Pat
 
Dan, perhaps I can impose on you further to share what are the major differences between JW’s and LDS?

Appreciate you’re assistance.

Love and prayers,

Pat
I don’t see many similarities. From looking at an LDS posting here and arguing a common position held between Catholics and LDS against my position as a JW, I would say that there may be more similarities between LDS and Catholics than between JWs and LDS.
  1. JWs only accept 66 inspired books and both Catholics and LDS add other books. LDS has the book of Mormon and Catholics have the Apocrypha.
  2. JWs teach that the gifts of prophecy stopped at the death of the last apostle and both Catholics and LDS accept extra biblical revelation.
  3. JWs teach that the dead are unconscious and both LDS and Catholics teach the soul lives on until a bodily resurrection.
  4. JWs teach that Jesus was resurrected as a spirit and both LDS and Catholics teach that Jesus retained his flesh and blood body after he was resurrected.
That is just off the top of my head.
 
I don’t see many similarities. From looking at an LDS posting here and arguing a common position held between Catholics and LDS against my position as a JW, I would say that there may be more similarities between LDS and Catholics than between JWs and LDS.
  1. JWs only accept 66 inspired books and both Catholics and LDS add other books. LDS has the book of Mormon and Catholics have the Apocrypha.
  2. JWs teach that the gifts of prophecy stopped at the death of the last apostle and both Catholics and LDS accept extra biblical revelation.
  3. JWs teach that the dead are unconscious and both LDS and Catholics teach the soul lives on until a bodily resurrection.
  4. JWs teach that Jesus was resurrected as a spirit and both LDS and Catholics teach that Jesus retained his flesh and blood body after he was resurrected.
That is just off the top of my head.
I would say that the majority of Christians are with the LDS and Catholic positions of points 2 through 4, and possibly even #1 (Orthodox Christians). Historically, it would seem that all 4 LDS and Catholics points are the correct ones — Point #1 could be easily refuted with simple history.
 
I would say that the majority of Christians are with the LDS and Catholic positions of points 2 through 4, and possibly even #1 (Orthodox Christians). Historically, it would seem that all 4 LDS and Catholics points are the correct ones — Point #1 could be easily refuted with simple history.
I would question that very many Protestant denominations would accept extra-biblical revelation.
 
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