Trinity Question.

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DarinHamel

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I am trying to wrap my mind around the Faith. Are these basic statements right?

1-The divine is absolute therefore there are absolute truths.

2-The one divine being is outside us, inside us and is all-pervading.

3-The divine outside us, is the unknowable divine transcendent and is called God the Father.

4- The divine inside us, is the knowable divine imminent and is called God the Son.

5-The divine all-pervading is called God the Holy Spirit.
 
That is not quite correct as an explanation of the Persons of the Trinity.

God is both transcendent and immanent.

First, he is pure spirit, having no matter or space, no time or energy, and no potentiality whatsoever, in his divine nature.

To be transcendant means He is completely Other, and entirely outside of His creation, in His very essence.

To be immanent means that, with respect to His creation, he is within it, and within us, as our necessary cause. Without God’s immanence within us, we would cease to exist, because our cause of existence would be gone.

The one God, whom we call Father, in knowing Himself, expresses himself so perfectly that his knowledge of himself–his Word–lacking nothing of the Father’s expression of himself, is also a distinct Person, the Son.

The Father and Son, in loving each other, express their love so perfectly that it is in itself a distinct Person, the Spirit.

God’s essence, his nature, is not divided in this distinction of Persons. His nature remains One.
 
Hi Darin,

You make it sound as though the divine persons were just different manifestations of God. There are three distinct persons, distinct like you and I are distinct from each other. Still there is but one God.

Verbum
 
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JimG:
That is not quite correct as an explanation of the Persons of the Trinity.

God is both transcendent and immanent.

First, he is pure spirit, having no matter or space, no time or energy, and no potentiality whatsoever, in his divine nature.

To be transcendant means He is completely Other, and entirely outside of His creation, in His very essence.

To be immanent means that, with respect to His creation, he is within it, and within us, as our necessary cause. Without God’s immanence within us, we would cease to exist, because our cause of existence would be gone.

The one God, whom we call Father, in knowing Himself, expresses himself so perfectly that his knowledge of himself–his Word–lacking nothing of the Father’s expression of himself, is also a distinct Person, the Son.

The Father and Son, in loving each other, express their love so perfectly that it is in itself a distinct Person, the Spirit.

God’s essence, his nature, is not divided in this distinction of Persons. His nature remains One.
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Could you do a numbered logical progression of what you just said? That all might make sense to you but I am scratching my empty head.
 
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Verbum:
Hi Darin,

You make it sound as though the divine persons were just different manifestations of God. There are three distinct persons, distinct like you and I are distinct from each other. Still there is but one God.

Verbum
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That doesn’t supprise me since a seminary professor called me a dualist last week. I really need to wrap my mind around the basic concepts.
 
A priest friend once told me that only a fool could believe they understood the Trinity!

I believe it is not accurate to say that the Father, Son and Holy Spirit are three distinct individuals like ‘Peter, Paul and Mary’ are three persons.

The term ‘person’ in relation to the Trinity comes from the Greek ‘*persona’. *Actors in Greek tragedies were said to have personas.

It is important to note that the “Trinity” is a mystery. We can attempt to describe it, understand it and comprehend it but all efforts will fall short. That is the definition of mystery. Great Saints and Theologians have offered varieties of explainations. They have ranged from simple to complex. Remember St. Patrick and the Shamrock? How about water? Water (H2O) at one temperature range it is a liquid. Raise or lower the temperature and you have steam (vapor) or ice (solid), yet it remains H2O fundamentally. These are all analogies that are used to explain the oneness of GOD and the three persons (Father, Son and Holy Spirit).

God is the creator and and within God is perfection. Man is made in the image and likeness of God. We hear that the Trinity is the perfection of ‘family’. With that thought I have used family relationships to image the Trinity especially with my children. I am my husband’s wife, my mother’s daughter and my son’s mother, but at all times I am myself. I am also a friend, employee, sister, niece, etc. Many persons (more than three), one body.

God in His perfection is all, in all, in Three: Father, Son and Holy Spirit. Perfection is Three in One! People have to be more and they never do any of them to perfection!

My musings, for what they are worth. Pax
 
A mystery means its revealed by God, It doesnt mean you can’t understand it through reason.

I never liked the answer, “You cant understand it, its a mystery”. There is a line between faith in the unseen and gullibility. I am not a sucker. I am a Roman Catholic and I have Faith informed with Reason. Only my reason is a little slower than my faith.

1-God is pure spirit, having no matter or space, no time or energy, and no potentiality whatsoever, in his divine nature.

2-God is Transcendent and completely Other, and entirely outside of His creation, in His very essence.

3-God is Immanent with respect to His creation, he is within it, and within us, as our necessary cause.

4-SHOULDN’T THERE BE A THIRD STATE LIKE “ALL-PERVADING” FOR THE THIRD PERSON OF THE TRINITY?
 
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DarinHamel:
SHOULDN’T THERE BE A THIRD STATE LIKE “ALL-PERVADING” FOR THE THIRD PERSON OF THE TRINITY?
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Keep in mind that the qualities of transcendence and of immanence apply to ALL THREE persons of the Trinity, not just one. That is because the qualities or attributes of God, along with all His other attributes, pertain to his nature–and God has but one Nature. That is why God is One.

Before one can reasonably discuss the Trinity, it is best to begin with the attributes of God–such as alll knowing, all powerful, eternal, omnipresent, etc. In doing this, I second Todd Easton’s recommendation of Frank Sheed’s book, Theology for Beginners.

Once we get a handle on the attributes of God as he is in Himself, we can consider a question such as, What does God know? What does God know “before Creation?” After all, He didn’t have to create.

Well, he knows himself, of course. That is a function of the intellect.

Now, I know myself. I can form an idea of myself. But my idea of myself is not perfect. It does not contain everything that is in the original, for one thing because I do not know myself perfectly.

But God does know himself perfectly. His idea of Himself is so perfect that it contains everything that is in the original–even so far as being a person. It does not contain anothter nature of God, because there can only be ONE nature of God. This idea of Himself that God generates by His own self knowledge, we call the Son.

But I don’t want to write a book here. Frank Sheed has already done that.
 
Wow, that last post made sense, sort of. I am trying to bridge the gap between the Theology of God and the Theology of Mysticism. I am probably saying it wrong.

Prayer, meditation and contemplation. Purgation, illumination and unification.

It just doesn’t seem to be chance that its three stages in prayer and mysticism and three in one God. I am trying to link the two.
 
And likewise, the relationship between the Father and the son, being so real, and definite, and whole and completely understood, a Love so complete and substantive, is actually a person, the Holy Spirit.
 
Well, we can make an attempt at understanding the relations within the Trinity, although we can never fully comprehend the reality of it. Thomas Aquinas, whose thinking forms the basis for a lot of our theology, was granted a brief personal revelation of God near the end of his life. The experience was so overwhelming that he considered all his previous writings as a pile of straw. He never wrote another word.

But that’s not to say his writings were worthless to us, since God himself in that private revelation seems to have approved of them.

Prayer is actually on a higher level than theology. One who prays well needs no theology. (I guess I’ll never pray well enough.) And contemplative prayer is entirely beyond our power. It is granted only by God at his will and in his own time.
 
Maybe instead of looking for an absolute truth we should search for a greatest truth instead
Can the words of the greatest commandments possibly show how Christ is one with the Father by describing their perfection and their relationship with each other?

The Father loves all that he is and all that he does with all his heart, soul, mind and strength.

The Father loves Christ as he loves HIMSELF.
Christ loves the father as he loves HIMSELF.

God loves each and every one of us as he loves himself?

Search for something greater.

Here is a short passage that uses the same kind of language to describe one flesh, as you read it, search in your heart for the profound mystery.

Ephesians 5:31 For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh. This is a profound mystery- but I am talking about Christ and the Church. However each one of you also must love his wife as he loves Himself, and the wife must respect her husband.

Paul brings together one flesh, marriage, Christ and the Church, and the second commandment making a profound connection between them all.

In the spirit of searching for a greatest relationship

Eric
 
Another thing to keep in mind, as others have pointed out, is that all attributes are of God, since God is One. The key differences in the Trinity are not in how It relates to us, since we are not co-eternal with God, but in how these Persons relate to eachother. This is because only God exists for eternity, only God is uncreated, and God is not shaped by a later created thing. So we must understand the Trinity as it relates to itself.
  1. God the Father = The Source. The Father represents God eternally sending forth from Himself. This is where God “comes from”, so to speak, it’s where all things have their “start”.
  2. God the Son = The Word/Thought. The Son represents God knowing, God eternally springing forth from the Source. The Word is God knowing Himself eternally, just as He springs forth from Himself, hence Thought is a good way to think of it.
  3. God the Holy Spirit = The Touch. God is real, entirely and truly, and what springs forth from the Source is tangible. God is not simply some abstract, He has substance, He has presence, and He is eternally present to Himself.
See, all of these things can be expressed by internal relations without taking any aspects away from God as a whole in relation to the created world.

:blessyou:
 
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Ghosty:
Another thing to keep in mind, as others have pointed out, is that all attributes are of God, since God is One. The key differences in the Trinity are not in how It relates to us, since we are not co-eternal with God, but in how these Persons relate to eachother. This is because only God exists for eternity, only God is uncreated, and God is not shaped by a later created thing. So we must understand the Trinity as it relates to itself.
  1. God the Father = The Source. The Father represents God eternally sending forth from Himself. This is where God “comes from”, so to speak, it’s where all things have their “start”.
  2. God the Son = The Word/Thought. The Son represents God knowing, God eternally springing forth from the Source. The Word is God knowing Himself eternally, just as He springs forth from Himself, hence Thought is a good way to think of it.
  3. God the Holy Spirit = The Touch. God is real, entirely and truly, and what springs forth from the Source is tangible. God is not simply some abstract, He has substance, He has presence, and He is eternally present to Himself.
See, all of these things can be expressed by internal relations without taking any aspects away from God as a whole in relation to the created world.

:blessyou:
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Sweet! Let me think on that.
 
greetings and peace,

All the laws and the prophets of God hang on the greatest commandments, so how does the mystery of the trinity hang on the greatest commandments?

In the spirit of searching for a greatest relationship

Eric
 
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