Trinity Understanding help

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Hello all,

I am really struggling with the Trinity doctrine. I am seeking God but the more I look into teachings of Islam, Christianity and Judaism I get all muddled up and confused.

I figured if the Trinity is true then the Catholic church is correct. I get so confused.

Thanks.
 
Just to add. I read the Catechism and it stated.

The Father was God
The Son is God
The Holy Spirt is God

But there is one God
 
Just to add. I read the Catechism and it stated.

The Father was God
The Son is God
The Holy Spirt is God

But there is one God
That’s correct. 🙂 A book often recommended on CAF is Frank Sheed’s Theology for Beginners; the author offers an excellent section on the Most Holy Trinity - it’s not very difficult theological reading. I think you would find the book very helpful with this doctrine and the other teachings of the Catholic Faith.

amazon.com/Theology-Beginners-Francis-Joseph-Sheed/dp/0892831243
 
By studying your Bible you can see that there is only one God and that He is a Trinity of three Persons.

For example Isa 45:5 reads, *I am the LORD, and there is none else, there is no God beside me: I girded thee, though thou hast not known me: *

So, there is only one God.

The Trinity is shown in many verses such as:

Isa 64:8 *But now, O LORD, thou art our father; we **are the clay, and thou our potter; and we all *are the work of thy hand. (Father is the Creator)

John 1:3 *All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. (Son is the Creator)

*Job 33:4 The Spirit of God hath made me, and the breath of the Almighty hath given me life. (The Holy Spirit is the Creator)
*
*There are many other verses in the Bible that show The Trinity. I’d be happy to share them with you if you would like.
 
yes, thanks to you both regarding my trinity question. i have been really strugling with God being one yet three persons. i am catholic yet was raised secular. i made some muslim friends and ever since i have started to question a lot of what has been taught me about the faith. thanks for sharing what you know. 🙂
 
The first example of a Trinitarian verse in the Bible is in Genesis, when God was creating everything. “Let us make man in our own image.”

Now, this cannot be the Imperial We, as used by nobility, as the concept as king as nation did not exist. In that era, the King was seen either as divine (as Pharoah was) or as anointed by God (as David was). You had to have the development of the nation-state as a concept first.

This also cannot be God talking to the Angels, as it implies a group working together. God did not need the Angels’ help. Further, Angels are not directly in the Image and Likeness of God as we are.

So, what are we left with?
 
Remember that the Trinity is about the One God. It explains the nature of the One God revealed in scriptures. It is the unification of the Father (eternal uncreated), His Word (eternal uncreated) and His Spirit (eternal uncreated), One God =tri-unity.

There aren’t 3 gods, nor One God with “partners” as the Quran mistakingly says since there was no time when the Father was Wordless or Spiritless.
 
**If Adam was not born, then Mary too would not have been born/came into existence. Then your God (Jesus) too would not have born as a circumcised Jew.

So at some point/time in the history of whole universe, Jesus was born/came into existence, as such before his birth as a Jew, there were ONLY TWO so-called DISTINCT PERSONS, as such there was no TRINITY at that time. Jesus to be called an another so-called DISTINCT PERSON of your trinity’s so-called THREE DISTINCT PERSONS, he must born as a man with flesh and bones.

If you say Jesus existed even before his birth, then he was not a DISTINCT PERSON at that time…so again Trinity formula fails.**
 
**
If Adam was not born, then Mary too would not have been born/came into existence. Then your God (Jesus) too would not have born as a circumcised Jew.
So at some point/time in the history of whole universe, Jesus was born/came into existence, as such before his birth as a Jew, there were ONLY TWO so-called DISTINCT PERSONS, as such there was no TRINITY at that time. Jesus to be called an another so-called DISTINCT PERSON of your trinity’s so-called THREE DISTINCT PERSONS, he must born as a man with flesh and bones.
If you say Jesus existed even before his birth, then he was not a DISTINCT PERSON at that time…so again Trinity formula fails.
**

You need to learn what the word “person” means, along with some other things. Take FCEGM’s advice and read that book, Theology for Beginners.
 
**If Adam was not born, then Mary too would not have been born/came into existence. Then your God (Jesus) too would not have born as a circumcised Jew.

So at some point/time in the history of whole universe, Jesus was born/came into existence, as such before his birth as a Jew, there were ONLY TWO so-called DISTINCT PERSONS, as such there was no TRINITY at that time. Jesus to be called an another so-called DISTINCT PERSON of your trinity’s so-called THREE DISTINCT PERSONS, he must born as a man with flesh and bones.

If you say Jesus existed even before his birth, then he was not a DISTINCT PERSON at that time…so again Trinity formula fails.**
John answers this thus: "In the beginning was the Word (Jesus), and the Word was with God (as in, a distinct person), and the Word was God, which recognizes that God is, in fact, one God in three persons.

Jon
 
**If Adam was not born, then Mary too would not have been born/came into existence. Then your God (Jesus) too would not have born as a circumcised Jew.

So at some point/time in the history of whole universe, Jesus was born/came into existence, as such before his birth as a Jew, there were ONLY TWO so-called DISTINCT PERSONS, as such there was no TRINITY at that time. Jesus to be called an another so-called DISTINCT PERSON of your trinity’s so-called THREE DISTINCT PERSONS, he must born as a man with flesh and bones.

If you say Jesus existed even before his birth, then he was not a DISTINCT PERSON at that time…so again Trinity formula fails.**
how do you come up with the idea that in order for Jesus to be a person He had to be born…Was the Father also born or the Holy Spirit?
 
why “distinct” ?? I don’t understand why they have to be distinct ??
 
the Trinity

3 distinct forms , 1 substance,

look at H2O ------- ice , water, vapor(steam)

ice is the only thing in this world that expands when it freezes, All other things contract when they freezes, Without that unique fact life could not exist, if ice contracted and sank in a lake then no fish could live, all lakes would freeze solid, iceburgs in the ocean would sink. . Ice expanding allows life,
ice= God the Father

water, the living flowing water, life can not exist without water, Christ is often represented as flowing water
water=Jesus

vapor, unseen, without it again life would not exist, if humidity was 0 percent. we would shrivel up and die, we need the vapor in our every breath we take, the vapor in the air also gives us rain. vapor is the breath of life.
vapor= Holy Spirit

All 3 forms of H2O are separate and distinct, but there are all H2O They are all the same element , in distinct forms.

all give LIFE, 3 distinct forms- (persons), but only One Substance-(God)
 
Just to add. I read the Catechism and it stated.

The Father was God
The Son is God
The Holy Spirt is God

But there is one God
i don’t know what catechism you read but perhaps you misspelled "the Father ?was? God…
God is a spirit and the first act of a spirit is to know,to understand. Now,God knowing Himself from all eternity,brought forth the full knowledge of Himself.This knowledge of Himself was not a mere passing idea,as we have, but His Own image,His own very Substance,a living person. God knowing Himself is God the Father:God as know to Himself is God the Son.God the Father and God the Son loved one another from all eternity,for each beheld in the other the Supreme goodness of the Divinity. Their mutual love is their very own Substance, a living person, the Holy Spirit,Thus,with the utmost imperfection, we concieve the Blessed Trinity to be the eternal outcome of the Divine understanding and the Divine will…But the mystery remains unsolved: we cannot answer "How can the image of God be a living person?"or "How can the mutual love of God and His Image be a living person?"this is taken from Aplogetics and Catholic Doctrine by Rev. Micheal Sheehan printed in 1948…Catholic teaching has always refered to the Trinity as a mystery,cause we with our feeble human minds can not possible comprend the fullness of Divinity…however this understanding will only be complete in the next life…and it should be something a christian should look forward too…
 
No human person can fully understand the doctrine of the Trinity which, after all, is why we refer to it as a mystery. Still, I think it is possible to approach the truth of the Trinity through image and metaphor. I often use the following image to help me approach the Trinity, but must warn you that I am not a professional theologian and there may be flaws in my image that may need correcting by those who are more knowledgeable about such matters. I see God, the Father in terms of a lover who has as the object of his love, us, his creation, the human person. Three elements are required for love to be activated or made real. Those elements are 1. The lover, the person who initiates the act of love, 2. The communication of that love to the beloved or the word or act that makes the love of the lover known to the beloved, and 3. The emotion of love itself, or the feeling or passion of love that the lover actually feels and which is expressed. God, the Father is the lover (element #1). God, the son, or Jesus, is the expression of the father’s love to his beloved (element # 2). God, the Holy Spirit, is the actual emotion of love that is expressed by the Father through the word (Jesus) to his beloved (element # 3). No element can exist on its own separate from the other elements and still be real love communicated to the beloved. There must be a lover, and expression of love, and the emotion of love, for love to actually exist in reality for the beloved. This is how I view the Trinity and I hope it can offer some insight for your own attempt to understand what truly is incomprehensible.
 
Tuswano:: i would say that your thoughts are understandable in regards to a explaination of the mystery of the Trinity…
 
Thanks all for all your helpful comments on the Trinity. They have all been very helpful. I am very thankful.

Hi fbl9,

I am reading from the catechism of the Catholic Church complete and updated version… Is there another version I should be reading?? Maybe I purchased the wrong one??

I was paraphrasing my first post about The Father being God.

The dogma of the Holy Trinity 253
The Divine persons do not share the one divinity among themselves but each of them is God whole and entire.

Sorry if I put it incorrectly. Thanks to all of you for sharing what you know.
 
Hello all,

I am really struggling with the Trinity doctrine. .

I figured if the Trinity is true then the Catholic church is correct.
Here is the Trinity actually explained for you by a great theologian Francis J. Sheed

The Three Persons

Father and Son

The heavenly Father has a Son; the Gospels tell of their relation. We must now look at it more closely.

A son is a distinct person from his father; there is no way in which a father can be his own son. But though they are distinct persons, they are like in nature—the son of a man is a man, of a lion a lion. In this solitary case, the Father’s nature is infinite; so the Son too must have infinite nature. But there cannot be two infinite natures—one would be limited by not being the other and by not having power over the other. Therefore, since the Son has infinite nature, it must be the same identical nature as the Father’s.

This truth, that Father and Son possess the one same nature, might remain wholly dark to us if St. John had not given us another term for their relation—the second person is the Word of the first. In the first eighteen verses of his Gospel we learn that God has uttered a Word, a Word who is with God (abiding therefore, not passing with the utterance), a Word who is God; by this Word all things were made.

So God utters a word—not framed by the mouth, of course, for God has no mouth. He is pure spirit. So it is a word in the mind of God, not sounding outwardly as our words sound, akin rather to a thought or an idea. What idea produced in God’s mind could possibly be God? Christian thinking saw early that it could be only the idea God has of himself.

The link between having a son and having an idea of oneself is that both are ways of producing likeness. Your son is like in nature to yourself; your idea of yourself bears some resemblance to you too—though it may be imperfect, for we seldom see ourselves very clearly; too many elements in us we see as we wish they were, too many we do not see at all.

Are we venturing too far if we feel that God does not have the idea for the sake of information about himself, but for the sake of companionship? However this may be, the idea that God has of himself cannot be imperfect. Whatever is in the Father must be in his idea of himself, and must be exactly the same as it is in himself. Otherwise God would have an inadequate idea of himself, which would be nonsense. Thus, because God is infinite, eternal, all-powerful, his idea of himself is infinite, eternal, all-powerful. Because God is God, his idea is God. “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God. And the Word was God.”
So far, the reader may feel that all this is still rather remote—full of significance, no doubt, to theologians, but not saying much to the rest of us. With the next step we take, that feeling must vanish. The Father knows and loves; so his idea knows and loves. In other words the idea is a person. Men have ideas, and any given idea is something. God’s idea of himself is not something only; it is Someone, for it can know and love.

The thinker and the idea are distinct, the one is not the other, Father and Son are two persons. But they are not separate. An idea can exist only in the mind of the thinker; it cannot, as it were, go off and start a separate life of its own. The idea is in the same identical nature; we could equally well say that the nature is in the idea, for there is nothing that the Father has which his Word, his Son, has not. “Whatsoever the Father has, that the Son has in like manner” (Jn16:15). Each possesses the divine nature, but each is wholly himself, conscious of himself as himself, of the other as other.

One immediate difficulty presents itself. We can hardly help thinking of sons as younger than their fathers—so felt the painters who gave the Father a long beard, the Son a short beard. Is the second person younger than the first? If not, how can he be his Son? But this is another of those points where we must not argue from the image (ourselves) to the original (God). Among men, fathers are always older than sons simply because a human being cannot start generating the moment he exists; he must wait till he develops to the point where he can generate. But God has not to wait for a certain amount of eternity to roll by before he is sufficiently developed. Eternity does not roll by; it is an abiding now; and God has all perfections in their fullness, not needing to develop. Merely by being God, he knows himself with infinite knowing power, and utters his total self-knowledge in the totally adequate idea of himself which is his co-eternal Son.
 
Gaudium et Spes directly draws a parallel from the union of the divine Persons and the “…union of the sons of God in truth and love.” (Gadium et Spes ¶ 24) Can you see how this uses human community itself as a model to show us the Trinity and thus offers a challenge to us for a journey into God?

Ultimately, the mystery and doctrine of the Trinity means that the God who created us, who sustains us, who will judge us and give us eternal life is not a totally transcendent God utterly removed from us, rather He is a God of absolute proximity, communicated in flesh, in history, within our human family. He is a God who is present in the spiritual depths of our being and apex of our unfolding history as the source of enlightenment and community.

The Trinity is the transcendent Archetype of unity-in-love-without-rivalry. This, I propose, is the challenge we are set by God.
 
So at some point/time in the history of whole universe, Jesus was born/came into existence, as such before his birth as a Jew, there were ONLY TWO so-called DISTINCT PERSONS, as such there was no TRINITY at that time. Jesus to be called an another so-called DISTINCT PERSON of your trinity’s so-called THREE DISTINCT PERSONS, he must born as a man with flesh and bones.
 
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