Trinity

[aball1035]

What does it mean when Jesus says things like the Father is greater than He? Shouldn’t they all be the same?

And why do the 3 persons in the Trinity have different ‘duties’.

 

[cheeto1]

He made Himself lower when He became human like us… now They are one again
and equal again…

Not sure about that “duties” part…

 

[IHateNietzsche]

Great questions! They’re pretty much timeless. St. Augustine gives detailed answers with examples from scripture in his work On The Trinity which can be found here:

newadvent.org/fathers/1301.htm

The short answer to your first question is that, when Jesus speaks of the Father being greater than himself, he is speaking in his humanity rather than his divinity. Remember, Christ also claims equality with the Father in several places in Scripture. In those places he is speaking as God. I highly recommend you read St. Augustine for a better idea of what exactly Christ means in those confusing passages.

For your second question: Strictly speaking, the acts of one person of the Trinity are the work of all the persons, so what one does, the others do also. Obviously, though, God has willed that His acts be ascribed especially to particular persons of the Trinity, so that, for example, though all the persons of the Trinity acted in the creation of the universe, we normally emphasize that creation was the work of the Father. WHY God so wills it this way, is a mystery. In my humble, hastily formed opinion, it likely has something to do with the love that exists between the persons that makes them desire each others’ glorification rather than their own. I know Thomas Aquinas came up with reasons why we ascribe particular acts to one or other of the divine persons, but I’m not familiar with those arguments.

 

[Benadam]

The Father is greater because He generates the Son and both are greater than the Spirit in that the Spirit proceeds from them.

God eternally generates Cognizance of Himself. God knowing God. God is knowing God, always was, always will. This knowing is God’s word and why Jesus said He reveals the Father. When you’ve seen me you’ve seen the Father. God knowing God spirates the 3rd Person who proceeds from them as One God. All three always were.

Jesus reveals the Father. The Spirit teaches man what it has learned from Jesus. It is in these distinctions that the Second Person of the trinity Incarnated as the only begotten Son. The Spirit is distinct from the Son, that’s why He brings to mind what Jesus taught and reveals.

 

[kepha1]

"…The human family is the closest analogy that mankind will ever come to concretely understanding the Blessed Trinity.

The creeds teach that while there is one God, He exists in three distinct persons. The bible, on the other hand, reveals that man is made in the ‘image of God’. From these two truths, therefore, we can acknowledge that the complete image of God is found in the Triune understanding of Him.

This understanding of His Triune nature is reflected by the human family whose personal relationships approach the likeness of the Trinity.
There are multiple demonstrations of this truth.

Consider the unity of the Trinity which is reflected in the unity of the family. Or the “family of persons” which is found in both. The persons of the Trinity share the 'same substance ’ while a human family becomes one flesh: wife with husband and parents with children.

There is also another element in the Trinity that lends itself to human likeness. The Nicene Creed professes this about the Trinity: “We believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the giver of life who proceeds from the Father and the Son.”

In Catholic theology, the Holy Spirit is said to proceed from the will of both the Father and the Son, or in other words, through the activity which they engage in, otherwise known as “love”.

The Holy Spirit is poured forth through the exchange of love between the Father and the Son. This is why perhaps Jesus says to the Apostles: " Unless I go away, the Counselor will not come to you; but if I go, I will send him to you." (John 16:7)

In the eternal economy of the Trinity, therefore, a person ‘proceeds’ from the love between two other persons. And so, the Holy Spirit is love ‘proceeding’ or ‘coming from’ the first two persons of the Blessed Trinity.

The human family has a rather striking parallel to this dynamic. The ultimate act of intimacy in a marriage mirrors the eternal exchange of love between the first two persons of the Trinity.

And like the eternal or continual procession of the Holy Spirit in the Trinity, the act of love between a man and a woman causes a ‘procession’ of another human person (i.e. the birth of a child).

Thus, it is precisely because the homosexual sex act is not ordered to the procession of another person, that it can never be a Trinitarian reflection of the divine essence.

Indeed, the sexual act itself, which is supposed to be a reflection of the Trinitarian relationship, becomes, through the homosexual act, a blasphemy against God since it ends up distorting the Trinitarian image of Him.

The human sexual act either affirms God’s image or it distorts it. This is why all forms of contraceptive sex, including the homosexual act, are serious sins: they seek to create God in another image. It is anti-Trinitarian. …"

http://catholic-legate.com/articles/antitrinity.html

 

[Peter_Dawson]

The Father is greater because He generates the Son and both are greater than the Spirit in that the Spirit proceeds from them.

God eternally generates Cognizance of Himself. God knowing God. God is knowing God, always was, always will. This knowing is God’s word and why Jesus said He reveals the Father. When you’ve seen me you’ve seen the Father. God knowing God spirates the 3rd Person who proceeds from them as One God. All three always were.

Jesus reveals the Father. The Spirit teaches man what it has learned from Jesus. It is in these distinctions that the Second Person of the trinity Incarnated as the only begotten Son. The Spirit is distinct from the Son, that’s why He brings to mind what Jesus taught and reveals.

Benadam, congratulations on your answer, here. You have well-internalized the theology of the Trinity.

Aball, the inter-relationship between the three persons within the one Trinitarian God is somewhat mysterious, because God is “thick soup” – ineffable to the human mind. I think that the best way to comprehend Christ’s words is to understand that, while the persons of God are equal in stature, Jesus the Son was bowing down to the Fatherhood of the Father. This has always been, is, and always will be their status vis-a-vis each other.

 

[Cashue]

When Jesus returned to heaven Pauls said …

Douay-Rheims Bible 1 Corinthians 11 v 3 that " …the head of Christ is God."

From this it is clear that when Jesus returned to heaven, God was no longer greater than him but the two were equal.

Thus Jesus referring to God being greater than him was only when he was a human.

 

[Peter_Dawson]

When Jesus returned to heaven Pauls said …

Douay-Rheims Bible 1 Corinthians 11 v 3 that " …the head of Christ is God."

From this it is clear that when Jesus returned to heaven, God was no longer greater than him but the two were equal.

Thus Jesus referring to God being greater than him was only when he was a human.

I disagree with your conclusion.

 

[aball1035]

I disagree with your conclusion.

Could you explain what your thoughts and reasons are?

 

[budgie2]

When Jesus returned to heaven Pauls said …

Douay-Rheims Bible 1 Corinthians 11 v 3 that " …the head of Christ is God."

From this it is clear that when Jesus returned to heaven, God was no longer greater than him but the two were equal.

Thus Jesus referring to God being greater than him was only when he was a human.

Jesus is still human and his resurrected body is in heaven. Christ’s divinity and humanity cannot be divided which I’ve read somewhere.

 

[PJM]

=aball1035;5316361]What does it mean when Jesus says things like the Father is greater than He? Shouldn’t they all be the same?

And why do the 3 persons in the Trinity have different ‘duties’.

Friend, I am intriqued by your question. Could you please provide a bible reference?

One God, One Divine Nature and three persons, is correct.

Love and prayers,
Pat

 

[Benadam]

Benadam, congratulations on your answer, here.

 

[PJM]

=Benadam;5323767]

:thankyou:Thank you Peter.

exactly. “Everything that the Father has He gives to the Son”

 

[Benadam]

=Benadam;5323767]

So friends, Jesus and Holy Spirit according to you both are only “a little bit God?” Isn’t that similar to being just a “little bit pregnant?”

253 The Trinity is One. We do not confess three Gods, but one God in three persons, the “consubstantial Trinity”. The divine persons do not share the one divinity among themselves but each of them is God whole and entire: “The Father is that which the Son is, the Son that which the Father is, the Father and the Son that which the Holy Spirit is, i.e. by nature one God.” In the words of the Fourth Lateran Council (1215), “Each of the persons is that supreme reality, viz., the divine substance, essence or nature.”

 

[aball1035]

Friend, I am intriqued by your question. Could you please provide a bible reference?

One God, One Divine Nature and three persons, is correct.

Love and prayers,
Pat

“You heard me say to you, ‘I am going away, and I will come to you.’ If you loved me, you would have rejoiced, because I am going to the Father, for the Father is greater than I.”
John 14:28 (English Standard Version)

and other places I think

 

[PJM]

=aball1035;5326320]“You heard me say to you, ‘I am going away, and I will come to you.’ If you loved me, you would have rejoiced, because I am going to the Father, for the Father is greater than I.”
John 14:28 (English Standard Version)

and other places I think

***THANK you so very much:thumbsup:

I thought that this is what you had in mind.

Once again it become evident that attempting to understand what the bible actually days and mean, by one’s self, is a great risk to ones spiritually, and perhaps to ones soul.

Your position cannot be correct because we profess “One God” Three Divine Persons, with ONLY ONE NATURE. So what One thinks, experiences, desires, loves, abhors, ECt. all Three Persons of the ONE God, completely agree with and share in.

Matthew Henrey has a very clear explaination for what this really means.***

M.H. / John 14: 28 “2. The reason of this is, because the Father is greater than he, which, if it be a proper proof of that for which it is alleged (as no doubt it is), must be understood thus, **that his state with his Father would be much more excellent and glorious than his present state; his returning to his Father (so Dr. Hammond) would be the advancing of him to a much higher condition than that which he was now in. **Or thus, His going to the Father himself, and bringing all his followers to him there, was the ultimate end of his undertaking, and therefore greater than the means. Thus Christ raises the thoughts and expectations of his disciples to something greater than that in which now they thought all their happiness bound up. The kingdom of the Father, wherein he shall be all in all, will be greater than the mediatorial kingdom.”

God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit are “Coequal” in every possible good way!

Love and prayer’s
Pat

 

[Cashue]

I disagree with your conclusion.

I appreciate that, but the scripure is clear; Paul is describing the the first century arrangement after Jesus death and ressurection to heaven to be with his father again. In saying “the head of christ is God” Paul is clearly saying that they are both equal and the same person.

Paul parrelles it with a husband and his wife, just as when a husband and wife marry, they become one person, with the husband the “head” of his wife,both the same both equal, so when Jesus returned to heaven, he and his father became one person again with God the Head of christ meaning they are both equal.

 

[PJM]

=Cashue;disagreed with…

I appreciate that, but the scripure is clear; Paul is describing the the first century arrangement after Jesus death and ressurection to heaven to be with his father again. In saying “the head of christ is God” Paul is clearly saying that they are both equal and the same person.

Paul parrelles it with a husband and his wife, just as when a husband and wife marry, they become one person, with the husband the “head” of his wife,both the same both equal, so when Jesus returned to heaven, he and his father became one person again with God the Head of christ meaning they are both equal.

***Further evidence of the Trinity

Mt. 3: 13 "Then Jesus came from Galilee to the Jordan to John, to be baptized by him. 14 John would have prevented him, saying, “I need to be baptized by you, and do you come to me?” 15 But Jesus answered him, “Let it be so now; for thus it is fitting for us to fulfil all righteousness.” Then he consented. 16 And when Jesus [The Son]* was baptized, he went up immediately from the water, and behold, the heavens were opened and he saw the Spirit [The Holy Spirit] of God descending like a dove, and alighting on him; 17* and lo, a voice from heaven, [God the Father] saying, “This is my beloved Son, with whom I am well pleased.” **

its in the Bible

 

[AmbroseSJ]

Benadam:

The Father is greater because He generates the Son and both are greater than the Spirit in that the Spirit proceeds from them.

Please read the Catholic Creed below carefully.

The Text of the Athanasian Creed

Whosoever will be saved, before all things it is necessary that he hold the catholic faith. Which faith except everyone do keep whole and undefiled, without doubt he shall perish everlastingly. And the catholic faith is this: That we worship one God in Trinity, and Trinity in Unity, neither confounding the persons, nor dividing the substance.

For there is one Person of the Father, another of the Son, and another of the Holy Spirit. But the godhead of the Father, of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit, is all one, the glory equal, the majesty co-eternal.

Such as the Father is, such is the Son, and such is the Holy Spirit. The Father uncreated, the Son uncreated, and the Holy Spirit uncreated. The Father incomprehensible, the Son incomprehensible, and the Holy Spirit incomprehensible.

The Father eternal, the Son eternal, and the Holy Spirit eternal. And yet they are not three eternals, but one Eternal.

As also there are not three incomprehensibles, nor three uncreated, but one Uncreated, and one Incomprehensible. So likewise the Father is Almighty, the Son Almighty, and the Holy Spirit Almighty. And yet they are not three almighties, but one Almighty.

So the Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Spirit is God. And yet they are not three gods, but one God.

So likewise the Father is Lord, the Son Lord, and the Holy Spirit Lord. And yet not three lords, but one Lord.

For as we are compelled by the Christian verity to acknowledge each Person by Himself to be both God and Lord, so we are also forbidden by the catholic religion to say that there are three gods or three lords.

The Father is made of none, neither created, nor begotten. The Son is of the Father alone, not made, nor created, but begotten. The Holy Spirit is of the Father, neither made, nor created, nor begotten, but proceeding.

So there is one Father, not three fathers; one Son, not three sons; one Holy Spirit, not three holy spirits.

And in the Trinity none is before or after another; none is greater or less than another, but all three Persons are co-eternal together and co-equal. So that in all things, as is aforesaid, the Unity in Trinity and the Trinity in Unity is to be worshipped.

He therefore that will be saved must think thus of the Trinity.

Furthermore, it is necessary to everlasting salvation that he also believe rightly the Incarnation of our Lord Jesus Christ. For the right faith is, that we believe and confess, that our Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, is God and man; God, of the substance of the Father, begotten before the worlds; and man of the substance of his mother, born in the world; perfect God and perfect man, of a rational soul and human flesh subsisting. Equal to the Father, as touching His godhead; and inferior to the Father, as touching His manhood; who, although He is God and man, yet he is not two, but one Christ; one, not by conversion of the godhead into flesh but by taking of the manhood into God; one altogether; not by confusion of substance, but by unity of person. For as the rational soul and flesh is one man, so God and man is one Christ; who suffered for our salvation, descended into hell, rose again the third day from the dead. He ascended into heaven, He sits at the right hand of the Father, God Almighty, from whence He will come to judge the quick and the dead. At His coming all men will rise again with their bodies and shall give account for their own works. And they that have done good shall go into life everlasting; and they that have done evil into everlasting fire.

This is the catholic faith, which except a man believe faithfully, he cannot be saved.

 

[CHRISTINE77]

"…The human family is the closest analogy that mankind will ever come to concretely understanding the Blessed Trinity.

The creeds teach that while there is one God, He exists in three distinct persons. The bible, on the other hand, reveals that man is made in the ‘image of God’. From these two truths, therefore, we can acknowledge that the complete image of God is found in the Triune understanding of Him.

This understanding of His Triune nature is reflected by the human family whose personal relationships approach the likeness of the Trinity.
There are multiple demonstrations of this truth.

Consider the unity of the Trinity which is reflected in the unity of the family. Or the “family of persons” which is found in both. The persons of the Trinity share the 'same substance ’ while a human family becomes one flesh: wife with husband and parents with children.

There is also another element in the Trinity that lends itself to human likeness. The Nicene Creed professes this about the Trinity: “We believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the giver of life who proceeds from the Father and the Son.”

In Catholic theology, the Holy Spirit is said to proceed from the will of both the Father and the Son, or in other words, through the activity which they engage in, otherwise known as “love”.

The Holy Spirit is poured forth through the exchange of love between the Father and the Son. This is why perhaps Jesus says to the Apostles: " Unless I go away, the Counselor will not come to you; but if I go, I will send him to you." (John 16:7)

In the eternal economy of the Trinity, therefore, a person ‘proceeds’ from the love between two other persons. And so, the Holy Spirit is love ‘proceeding’ or ‘coming from’ the first two persons of the Blessed Trinity.

The human family has a rather striking parallel to this dynamic. The ultimate act of intimacy in a marriage mirrors the eternal exchange of love between the first two persons of the Trinity.

And like the eternal or continual procession of the Holy Spirit in the Trinity, the act of love between a man and a woman causes a ‘procession’ of another human person (i.e. the birth of a child).

Thus, it is precisely because the homosexual sex act is not ordered to the procession of another person, that it can never be a Trinitarian reflection of the divine essence.

Indeed, the sexual act itself, which is supposed to be a reflection of the Trinitarian relationship, becomes, through the homosexual act, a blasphemy against God since it ends up distorting the Trinitarian image of Him.

The human sexual act either affirms God’s image or it distorts it. This is why all forms of contraceptive sex, including the homosexual act, are serious sins: they seek to create God in another image. It is anti-Trinitarian. …"

http://catholic-legate.com/articles/antitrinity.html

This is good. The Creed states that the Holy Spirit is the Lord, the Giver of Life. I remember knowing when I conceived, the exact moment, it was like something magic happened. It was the supernatural force of the Holy Spirit creating my son.