Trinity

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Jim_Baur

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I am only looking for help in understanding the Trinity.

Again, I am asking for help: How is it that we say there are three persons of the Holy Trinity?

I am a struggling student, please keep it simple, thanks!

Also, does the Old Testament describe God as I John does, that is, God is love?

Thanks!

As I said earilier, I am not looking for an argument about whether we should use the words Trinity or Person, but just looking to learn.

Thanks!
 
I would start with the catechism…paragraph 232-260:
scborromeo.org/ccc/p1s2c1p2.htm#II

as far as the OT and God being Love, the answer is yes, but not verbatum. the verse comes to mind:
Give thanks to the LORD, for he is good; his love endures forever.
Psalm 107:1-3
 
3 persons 1 God. 3 essences of 1 God. 3 ways God is present. It is indeed a difficult topic to explain.
 
The Trinity is a mystery, so you will never fully grasp the mystery. Even the seraphim and cherubim don’t have a full grasp of the mystery.

I’ll pray that the Holy Spirit gives you faith, understanding, and knowledge regarding the mystery of the Holy Trinity.

Here is a story about what happened to St. Augustine when he tried to understand the mystery:
The Story of St. Augustine and the Boy at the Beach
as recounted in the Golden Legend,
written in A.D. 1275 by Jacobus de Voragine, Archbishop of Genoa
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Many other miracles hath God showed by his [St. Augustine’s] life, and also after his death, which were overlong to write in this book, for they would, I suppose, contain a book as much as all this and more, but among other corrections, I will set herein one miracle, which I have seen painted on an altar of St. Austin at the black friars at Antwerp, howbeit I find it not in the legend, mine exemplar, neither in English, French, ne in Latin.
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It was so that this glorious doctor made and compiled many volumes, as afore is said, among whom he made a book of the Trinity, in which he studied and mused sore in his mind, so far forth that on a time as he went by the sea-side in Africa, studying on the Trinity, he found by the sea-side a little child which had made a little pit in the sand, and in his hand a little spoon. And with the spoon he took out water of the large sea and poured it into the pit.
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And when St. Augustin beheld him he marvelled, and demanded him what he did. And he answered and said: “I will lade out and bring all this water of the sea into this pit.”
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“What?” said he, “it is impossible, how may it be done, sith the sea is so great and large, and thy pit and spoon so little?”
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“Yes, forsooth,” said he, “I shall lightlier and sooner draw all the water of the sea and bring it into this pit than thou shalt bring the mystery of the Trinity and His Divinity into thy little understanding as to the regard thereof; for the Mystery of the Trinity is greater and larger to the comparison of thy wit and brain than is this great sea unto this little pit.”
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And therewith the child vanished away. Then here may every man take ensample that no man, and especially simple lettered men, ne unlearned, presume to intermit ne to muse on high things of the Godhead, farther than we be informed by our faith, for our only faith shall suffice us.
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There is God the Father who is eternal and sustains all things by His Spirit. The Holy Spirit is as it is called a separate spirit or power that is reserved for specific things, usually that which is “unnatural” such as resurrecting the dead or curing the sick with a word.

There is the Messiah Yehshua who is not eternal, but was begotten by the Father through the Holy Spirit or separate power. He is the manifestation of the Divine Will in sinful flesh for he did all that was commanded of him and did not sin. Because of this, he was highly exalted to sit by the right hand of God and give intercession between God and man. He is the mediator as Paul says in Hebrews who gives intercession. He is the one whom Job calls for. He is the one whom Isaiah hopes for.

“For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus” 1 Tim 2:5

“Therefore I will divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he poured out his soul to death, and was numbered with the transgressors; yet he bore the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.” Isa 53:12

“Consequently he is able for all time to save those who draw near to God through him, since he always lives to make intercession for them.” Heb 7:25

Jesus sits glorified at the right hand of the Most High. He is second only to Him. When he returns, he shall be the King over all of the earth. As the Hebrew letter Aleph shows: the power of Heaven and the power of Earth in perfect unity.

The verse that vehemently shows that they are unequal is:

“But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman [is] the man; and the head of Christ [is] God.” 1 Cor 11:3

Now I have heard a Catholic Apologist say that man and woman are equal. This firstly goes against Genesis 3:16 “Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire [shall be] to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee.” This was a curse to all women given prior to the giving of the Law. The Law was done away with, but the curses spoken by the Lord remain. Else, why do we still die?

So… man is over woman. Christ is over man. And God is over Christ. If you say Christ is equal to God and man is equal to woman, then you must say that Christ and God are equal to man and woman. We know this to be absolutely incorrect. Thus, the statement is to be taken as it is said. The head of Christ is God. They are not equal.
 
DihydrogenOxide said:
The Trinity is a mystery, so you will never fully grasp the mystery. Even the seraphim and cherubim don’t have a full grasp of the mystery.

I’ll pray that the Holy Spirit gives you faith, understanding, and knowledge regarding the mystery of the Holy Trinity.

Here is a story about what happened to St. Augustine when he tried to understand the mystery:
Click to expand...
The seraphim and the cherubim are part of visions and are symbols for the future glorified saints. The symbolic/spiritual uses are far too in depth to speak about here and would take a verse by verse exposition of Isaiah, Ezekiel and Revelations as well as the few other parts in which they are mentioned. If you wish, I can give a crash course in the subject. Suffice it to say, they are symbolic visions of the future saints surrounding the throne.

Also, the mystery thing is a cop out. It is saying “I do not understand so I am not meant to understand.” Really, it is “my belief contradicts Scripture, so I will say that it is a paradoxical mystery.”

“And he said, Unto you it is given to know the mysteries of the kingdom of God: but to others in parables; that seeing they might not see, and hearing they might not understand.” Luke 8:10

All mysteries have been revealed in Christ.

“their hearts may be encouraged as they are knit together in love, to have all the riches of assured understanding and the knowledge of God’s mystery, of Christ, in whom are hid all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge. I say this in order that no one may delude you with beguiling speech.” Col 2:2-4

So either you understand or you do not understand. Those who do not understand are in the like with the Pharisees.

“God sends upon them a strong delusion, to make them believe what is false, so that all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness.” 2 Thess 2:11-12

It is our duty to seek the Truth, and we shall find it in Christ.

“And I say unto you, Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you. For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened.” Luke 11:9-10
 
Regarding posts #7 and #8: IamCarl lists his religious views as “Christadelphian,” which maintain an anti-Trinitarian—and thus, by definition, non-Christian—(mis)understanding of the nature of God. While he certainly has a right to express his opinions here, his views should not be confused with authentically Christian teachings.
culthelp.info/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=134&Itemid=8

Gaudium de veritate,

Cruciform
+T+
 
Jim_Baur said:
I am only looking for help in understanding the Trinity.

Again, I am asking for help: How is it that we say there are three persons of the Holy Trinity?
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Conceptually … God is described as love … that is God’s essence … who He is. If so, then a God of 1 person could not be love … God could only be a lover. Love takes 3 things for it to exist … a lover, a beloved and the love between them … ergo the Trinity.
 
Jim_Baur said:
I am only looking for help in understanding the Trinity.

Again, I am asking for help: How is it that we say there are three persons of the Holy Trinity?

I am a struggling student, please keep it simple, thanks!

Also, does the Old Testament describe God as I John does, that is, God is love?

Thanks!

As I said earilier, I am not looking for an argument about whether we should use the words Trinity or Person, but just looking to learn.

Thanks!
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JimG said:
Read this book.
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I recommend that book too. You will do well to read it. I’ll try to give a brief summary…

In that book, it describes God who is a spirit, and - like all spirits - he knows and he loves. God is infinite, without beginning and without end. His knowledge is infinite. And his love is infinite. But you can not have three infinite beings who are separate because that would mean one is limited by not being the other.

His knowledge - known as The Word (Jesus, who became man) - is infinite and so it must possess the same nature as God and is thus a person. The love between God and The Word is also infinite and so it must possess the same nature as God and is thus a person too.

So we have three persons, but they are not separate because they know with the same intellect and love with the same will.

I don’t know if the above helps, but please read that book because it explains who is God (person) and what is God (nature).
 
Charlie Zeaiter

That is a big help.

To all others, and Charlie too, why do we use person?
 
Jim_Baur said:
Charlie Zeaiter

That is a big help.

To all others, and Charlie too, why do we use person?
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Not every entity is a person. A rock, for example, has a nature but not a person. Humans have one nature expressed in one person. God has one nature (one essence) expressed in 3 persons.

The three persons in the Godhead are not distinct entities. If they were distinct entities, there would be three Gods. But there are not. Each Person wholly and completely possesses the One divine essence, which cannot be subdivided.

Person answers the question: Who is it?
Nature answers the question: What is it?

With God, there is only one what; there are three who’s.

To expand on Charlie’s reply: God (Father), being perfect, knows himself perfectly.
God’s idea or knowledge of himself, lacks nothing. There is nothing in God which is not in his knowledge of his own self. Thus, God’s idea of himself is expressed as the Word, God speaking Himself, fully and completely. The Word, or Son, is a distinct Person, but not a distinct entity.

Father and Son express their mutual love through an act of the will. That act of love is so perfect that it lacks nothing, including personhood, thus generating the Spirit.

The Trinity in essence, is the full expression of God in his intellect and will, expressed in eternity, not time.

But, read the Frank Sheed book for a fuller explanation.
 
There is one spirit which sustains all things. The Father, the Son, and the Angels all have this spirit.
 
IamCarl said:
There is one spirit which sustains all things. The Father, the Son, and the Angels all have this spirit.
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I refer interested readers to Post #10 above.

Gaudium de veritate,

Cruciform
+T+
 
Any ideas on when and why Christians started using the word Person?

Thanks!
 
Jim_Baur said:
Any ideas on when and why Christians started using the word Person?

Thanks!
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It’s an English translation of the Latin word that is equivalent to the Greek word used in the theological definitions of the Holy Trinity of the first ecumenical councils (which were discussed and codified in Greek.)

When discussing the Holy Trinity, person has a specific theological meaning.😉
 
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